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Units data on the UI - 2/1/2017 7:50:47 PM   
Templer_12


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On the fence. Still collecting information.

Where do if see the AFV data on the UI?
An image about a Tiger data UI sheet, maybe?
Post #: 1
RE: Units data on the UI - 2/2/2017 9:44:38 AM   
rico21

 

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If you think that during the Second World War the Strategy was dominated by the Americans, the Operative Art mastered by the Russians and the greatest tacticians were German then this game is for you.
Ps: You do not need armor data if you know you're not attacking a tiger with a T-70 and an elite squad running out to a squad of rookies that have a mg42, are dead men.
It is good to doubt the interest of the game, you will be pleasantly surprised!

(in reply to Templer_12)
Post #: 2
RE: Units data on the UI - 2/2/2017 4:31:21 PM   
Templer_12


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rico21

If you think that during the Second World War the Strategy was dominated by the Americans, the Operative Art mastered by the Russians and the greatest tacticians were German then this game is for you.

Interesting statement.


Tiger vs. T-70
There must be an advantage for the tiger? At least it should be so!

(in reply to rico21)
Post #: 3
RE: Units data on the UI - 2/2/2017 5:13:09 PM   
rico21

 

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Tiger vs. T-70'UP844
Tiger dead!

2nd Interesting statement:
France and Germany have one thing in common, they know that we must not invade Russia.

(in reply to Templer_12)
Post #: 4
Poor support - 2/2/2017 7:30:57 PM   
Templer_12


Posts: 1637
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From: Germany
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I still don't know if Tigers on the Hunt is a game for me.
The community isn't.

I come here, ask, ask for help and information and all I get is a joker who does not stop talking BS!
That pushes me off.

< Message edited by Templer -- 2/2/2017 7:35:08 PM >

(in reply to rico21)
Post #: 5
RE: Poor support - 2/2/2017 11:40:00 PM   
idjester

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Templer

I still don't know if Tigers on the Hunt is a game for me.
The community isn't.

I come here, ask, ask for help and information and all I get is a joker who does not stop talking BS!
That pushes me off.


Templer... I would recommend you watch some of my videos.. I have tutorials, I have let's plays, and I have how to do's.

That way you can see first hand what you will get with Tigers on the Hunt. What you won't see is AFV data on the UI...

The game is ment to be played fast and loose, not bogged down with the fine data. If you are looking for charts, and data, and information then this might not be the game for you.

But before you leave, at least check out some TOTH videos and see what you think as you can see live what its like.

Hope this helps.

PS... there are tons of players here to help you, if you don't get any answer please feel free to PM with any questions you have and I would be happy to answer them.

< Message edited by idjester -- 2/2/2017 11:41:09 PM >

(in reply to Templer_12)
Post #: 6
RE: Poor support - 2/3/2017 5:26:32 AM   
Gerry4321

 

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Templer, check out the ASL mod. There is ASL-like firepower, armor factors, etc. on those counters. Ask questions always if you have any.

(in reply to idjester)
Post #: 7
RE: Poor support - 2/3/2017 1:09:10 PM   
Templer_12


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Idjester, Gerry, thank you.

I have never heard about ASL before.
Tactical games are not among my favorite games.

Idjester
I spent the last days with watching your videos and I like what I see. I especially like fighting in Stalingrad and on German soil, in Berlin.

To my input question: So in Tiges on the Hunt there are no units data sheets on the UI?
Well, I can live with that.

Still important for me would be whether the combat strength of the tanks at least roughly modulated.
So again: in the encounter Tiger vs. T-70, the T-70 should be in trouble.
If not, that would mean that the various tank counter are just cosmetics.

(in reply to Gerry4321)
Post #: 8
RE: Poor support - 2/3/2017 2:31:00 PM   
Paullus

 

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Templer the T-70 will be in big problem. Peter has worked hard on modelling different tanks strengths. He is working on a probability chart to implement into the game were you can have shown the effect firing on different tanks. It will be done as his next Update project.

_____________________________

For my part, I shall do my duty as a general; I shall see to it that you are given the chance of a successful action. /Lucius Aemilius Paullus

(in reply to Templer_12)
Post #: 9
RE: Poor support - 2/3/2017 2:34:57 PM   
Paullus

 

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As for Stalingrad and Berlin both Peter and I have a big interest in these battlefields and do have tons of information. This might very well end up in a or several special DLCs. Right now I'm working on where to go next after the Kursk DLC. Death of the Leaping Horseman perhaps? No decisions made yet.

< Message edited by Paullus -- 2/3/2017 2:37:05 PM >


_____________________________

For my part, I shall do my duty as a general; I shall see to it that you are given the chance of a successful action. /Lucius Aemilius Paullus

(in reply to Templer_12)
Post #: 10
RE: Poor support - 2/3/2017 3:38:07 PM   
UP844


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Tanks are very accurately modelled, even though their characteristics are not listed in detail in the tables.

As far as I have been able to ascertain after countless hours of playing ToTH, the following has been modelled, even though it is not mentioned anywhere:

> different gun types (even if both a StuG IIIB and a JgPz IV have their Main Armament listed as 75mm, the former is a 75/24 infantry support gun and the latter is a 75/70, much more accurate and deadlier)

> different armor rating: there is a lot of difference between a PzIV D and a PzIV H

> vehicle size: this is not indicated anywhere in the manuals, but I carried out some fire tests and some vehicles (e.g. StuGs) are harder to hit than others (e.g. Panthers, Shermans or Tiger IIs)

> mechanical reliability: some vehicles risk immobilisation when they start their engine, and early Panthers sometimes self-ignite (too many when I play Germans, too few when I play the Allies).

I am collecting all this information in a kind of "Vehicle Guide", but it is still in a very rough format.

A single T-70 will have a very hard time fighting a Tiger. The only way I think it can kill it is through a rear shot at very close range, but just surviving to fire that shot will be an epic feat by itself. On the other hand, very few tanks can deal with a Tiger on a one-on-one: Sherman Fireflies, Achilles & M36 TDs, Pershings, IS-2s and SU-100s).

@Peter: wouldn't it be possible to differentiate the string reporting MA type in the unit window, so that the player has a better idea of the weapon he is using? Not everyone out there is an old ASL grognard or a WW2 tank expert: the gun of a T-34 m40 and that of a Sherman Firefly, are both listed as "MA: 76mm", but are very different items .

< Message edited by UP844 -- 2/3/2017 11:22:03 PM >


_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

Long Range Fire (A7.22)........1/2 FP

(in reply to Paullus)
Post #: 11
RE: Poor support - 2/3/2017 10:43:44 PM   
Gerry4321

 

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Great post UP844. I would really like to see these gun details too.

(in reply to UP844)
Post #: 12
RE: Poor support - 2/4/2017 2:04:01 AM   
Rosseau

 

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Probably repeating myself - at my age it's typical. But Tigers is probably the only game I have that does not tell me hit percentages, etc. etc. For this reason - the tension and uncertainty - I like it. But for others could be an issue, but it is being addressed on some level.

(in reply to Gerry4321)
Post #: 13
RE: Poor support - 2/4/2017 6:19:56 AM   
Missouri_Rebel


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Templer, none of my business but rico, while having some fun, does make good points in that the various units do matter along with the situations at the time.

Toth is not polished and bleeding edge as far as UI's are concerned but it is certainly functional. The gameplay itself is excellent though and all of the great scenarios shipped with the game and those made by some great community members makes this game a great value. Many of those fine scenarios are in fact made and submitted by rico. TotH's distinct phases offer a ton of strategy throughout the turn and to ASL players such as myself, it offers the closest thing to that system that Ive found. It is a tactical game in the end though so if those aren't your type of game then your mileage may vary.





_____________________________

**Those who rob Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul
**A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have-Gerald Ford

(in reply to Rosseau)
Post #: 14
RE: Poor support - 2/4/2017 12:00:47 PM   
dox44

 

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From: the woodlands, texas
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jumping in its none of my business either but an excellent post MR.

(in reply to Missouri_Rebel)
Post #: 15
RE: Poor support - 2/4/2017 12:15:33 PM   
jhdeerslayer


Posts: 1184
Joined: 5/25/2002
From: Michigan
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

Templer, none of my business but rico, while having some fun, does make good points in that the various units do matter along with the situations at the time.

Toth is not polished and bleeding edge as far as UI's are concerned but it is certainly functional. The gameplay itself is excellent though and all of the great scenarios shipped with the game and those made by some great community members makes this game a great value. Many of those fine scenarios are in fact made and submitted by rico. TotH's distinct phases offer a ton of strategy throughout the turn and to ASL players such as myself, it offers the closest thing to that system that Ive found. It is a tactical game in the end though so if those aren't your type of game then your mileage may vary.



+1

_____________________________


(in reply to Missouri_Rebel)
Post #: 16
RE: Poor support - 2/4/2017 12:44:00 PM   
UP844


Posts: 1554
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From: Genoa, Republic of Genoa (occupied by Italy)
Status: offline
If you are interested, here is a very rough draft of the expanded AFV list for ToTH. Suggestions and advice are welcome.



Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

Long Range Fire (A7.22)........1/2 FP

(in reply to jhdeerslayer)
Post #: 17
RE: UP844 AFV Listing - 2/4/2017 12:52:21 PM   
Big Ivan


Posts: 1663
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From: Mansfield, OH
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quote:

ORIGINAL: UP844

If you are interested, here is a very rough draft of the expanded AFV list for ToTH. Suggestions and advice are welcome.




UP844,

That's a very useful tool and thanks for sharing. I particularly like the date reference for each AFV.
Currently the game engine doesn't seem to take that into account when designing but that's probably
an easy fix for Peter going forward.

Thanks again!



_____________________________

Blitz call sign Big Ivan.

(in reply to UP844)
Post #: 18
RE: Poor support - 2/4/2017 1:12:58 PM   
Peter Fisla


Posts: 2439
Joined: 10/5/2001
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UP844

Tanks are very accurately modelled, even though their characteristics are not listed in detail in the tables.

As far as I have been able to ascertain after countless hours of playing ToTH, the following has been modelled, even though it is not mentioned anywhere:

> different gun types (even if both a StuG IIIB and a JgPz IV have their Main Armament listed as 75mm, the former is a 75/24 infantry support gun and the latter is a 75/70, much more accurate and deadlier)

> different armor rating: there is a lot of difference between a PzIV D and a PzIV H

> vehicle size: this is not indicated anywhere in the manuals, but I carried out some fire tests and some vehicles (e.g. StuGs) are harder to hit than others (e.g. Panthers, Shermans or Tiger IIs)

> mechanical reliability: some vehicles risk immobilisation when they start their engine, and early Panthers sometimes self-ignite (too many when I play Germans, too few when I play the Allies).

I am collecting all this information in a kind of "Vehicle Guide", but it is still in a very rough format.

A single T-70 will have a very hard time fighting a Tiger. The only way I think it can kill it is through a rear shot at very close range, but just surviving to fire that shot will be an epic feat by itself. On the other hand, very few tanks can deal with a Tiger on a one-on-one: Sherman Fireflies, Achilles & M36 TDs, Pershings, IS-2s and SU-100s).

@Peter: wouldn't it be possible to differentiate the string reporting MA type in the unit window, so that the player has a better idea of the weapon he is using? Not everyone out there is an old ASL grognard or a WW2 tank expert: the gun of a T-34 m40 and that of a Sherman Firefly, are both listed as "MA: 76mm", but are very different items .


In Addition:

1) is the AFV open topped or not (example US M10 Tank Destroyer) - Mortars can take out open topped vehicles

2) If AFV has a turret or not, does the turret rotate fast/slow/one man turret (early T-34)

3) Special Ammunition (randomly assigned)

4) Does an AFV have a radio

5) Stall, example Panther and JagdPanther can sometimes stall (meaning an AFV can loose a number of movement points before it can even move)

(in reply to UP844)
Post #: 19
RE: Poor support - 2/4/2017 2:40:23 PM   
UP844


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From: Genoa, Republic of Genoa (occupied by Italy)
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The data is still incomplete: by way of example, I discovered that SU-100s also have limited HE the hard way (i.e. attempting to preventing a PSK-armed squad from killing me :D). I suppose all TD-class AFVs have limited HE ammo (it's not their role), even though an M18 Hellcat surprised me by firing HE six times (maybe I was extremely lucky with ammo depletion die rolls)

I'm thinking about adding two extra columns "turret type" and "radio-equipped".

A couple clarification for those who never heard about ASL (these will be added to the document in the next draft):

- Movement Points in red indicate the AFV is subject to Mechanical Reliability check any time it starts its engine;

- Gun name format in the tables is <calibre+barrel length suffix>. The latter may be "*", "none", "L", "LL", with the following meaning:

"*" = short-barrelled (less than 25 calibres long), low-velocity guns. MTR, INF and most ART fall into this category. Usually not very good at piercing armor, unless they have HEAT (hollow charge) rounds available. Typical example: German 75* mounted on early PzIVs and StuGs.

"none" = medium-barrelled (25 to 40 calibres long),medium velocity guns. Some ART and some tank guns. General purpose guns, adequate for AT fire until 1942-43: Typical example: American 75 mounted on Shermans.

"L" = long-barrelled (40 to 54 calibres long), high velocity guns. Most AT, AA and AFV guns. Generally effective against any target (in the appropriate time frame - a German 37L can deal with BT-5s but will be useless against IS-2s, even though it will score many hits). Typical example: Russian 85L mounted on T-34/85, SU-85.

"LL" = very long-barrelled (55+ calibres long), very high velocity guns. A few AT and AFV guns. Usually deadly against any target save for some extra-heavy tanks. Typical example: British 76LL mounted on Sherman Firefly.

Some other general rules:

The accuracy and penetrating power of small-calibre guns decreases faster at long ranges;
Higher muzzle velocity also implies better accuracy at long range: a 75LL is much more accurate than a 75 (don't engage in long range duels with Panthers if you all you have are 75mm-armed Shermans)




< Message edited by UP844 -- 2/4/2017 2:41:08 PM >


_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

Long Range Fire (A7.22)........1/2 FP

(in reply to Peter Fisla)
Post #: 20
Tigers on the Hunt by Peter Fisla is underrated - 2/4/2017 2:49:33 PM   
Templer_12


Posts: 1637
Joined: 1/5/2009
From: Germany
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Long explanation:
I have started this thread because I was interested whether somewhere in the UI AFV data are to be found. Never saw such data in the videos.

My great concern, however, was that different types of tanks are not differently modeled (one size fits all).
Now I learn that the tank types were even modeled fairly detailed.

I purchased Tigers on the Hunt yesterday.
What I see now, I like very well.

Created some tank battles with the editor - earned fun battles.

I might have a little experience with strategy games on PC, I say: „Tigers on the Hunt“ by Peter Fisla is underrated!

However, it's a“ bit“ click heavy...

Short explanation:

Gentlemen, thank you for the help.

(in reply to Peter Fisla)
Post #: 21
RE: Poor support - 2/4/2017 2:53:30 PM   
Templer_12


Posts: 1637
Joined: 1/5/2009
From: Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UP844

If you are interested, here is a very rough draft of the expanded AFV list for ToTH. Suggestions and advice are welcome.



Very nice, thanks for sharing.

(in reply to UP844)
Post #: 22
RE: Poor support - 2/4/2017 7:41:05 PM   
Missouri_Rebel


Posts: 3081
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From: Southern Missouri
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Templar, are you using the ASL mod like Gerry suggested? It has the unit values on the counters that allows you to quickly discern the strengths of the various units.

Maybe you can share one of your scenarios in the future?

Check out this old thread and see if it might be helpful to you.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4041969&mpage=1&key=xmouse�

_____________________________

**Those who rob Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul
**A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have-Gerald Ford

(in reply to Templer_12)
Post #: 23
RE: Poor support - 2/4/2017 10:55:38 PM   
Hailstone


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From: Phoenix, AZ
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Missouri_Rebel, I couldn't help but to follow your link to X-Mouse and I was very lucky to have done so. Mouse-X is an outstanding tool for TotH now no longer do I have to put my beer down to make selections! Hey, I've also been near your neck of the woods, back in the day I was stationed at Whiteman. SeeYa.

(in reply to Missouri_Rebel)
Post #: 24
RE: Poor support - 2/4/2017 11:14:02 PM   
Hailstone


Posts: 639
Joined: 1/19/2016
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UP844

If you are interested, here is a very rough draft of the expanded AFV list for ToTH. Suggestions and advice are welcome.





I do have a suggestion that I would find helpful and that is including a notation that identifies which AFV's can only
fire when crew is exposed. Not knowing the specs to the AFV's I have found myself in pretty bad situations exposing an
AFV getting into firing position just to get a prompt while firing that the AFV cannot be buttoned up when firing MA.
Your rough draft looked fairly polished to me and I do appreciate what you have done. SeeYa.

(in reply to UP844)
Post #: 25
RE: Units data on the UI - 9/6/2017 7:01:06 PM   
Big Ivan


Posts: 1663
Joined: 6/9/2008
From: Mansfield, OH
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: UP844

If you are interested, here is a very rough draft of the expanded AFV list for ToTH. Suggestions and advice are welcome.




"The data is still incomplete: by way of example, I discovered that SU-100s also have limited HE the hard way (i.e. attempting to preventing a PSK-armed squad from killing me :D). I suppose all TD-class AFVs have limited HE ammo (it's not their role), even though an M18 Hellcat surprised me by firing HE six times (maybe I was extremely lucky with ammo depletion die rolls)

I'm thinking about adding two extra columns "turret type" and "radio-equipped".

A couple clarification for those who never heard about ASL (these will be added to the document in the next draft):

- Movement Points in red indicate the AFV is subject to Mechanical Reliability check any time it starts its engine;

- Gun name format in the tables is <calibre+barrel length suffix>. The latter may be "*", "none", "L", "LL", with the following meaning:

"*" = short-barreled (less than 25 caliber's long), low-velocity guns. MTR, INF and most ART fall into this category. Usually not very good at piercing armor, unless they have HEAT (hollow charge) rounds available. Typical example: German 75* mounted on early PzIVs and StuGs.

"none" = medium-barreled (25 to 40 calibers long),medium velocity guns. Some ART and some tank guns. General purpose guns, adequate for AT fire until 1942-43: Typical example: American 75 mounted on Shermans.

"L" = long-barreled (40 to 54 calibers long), high velocity guns. Most AT, AA and AFV guns. Generally effective against any target (in the appropriate time frame - a German 37L can deal with BT-5s but will be useless against IS-2s, even though it will score many hits). Typical example: Russian 85L mounted on T-34/85, SU-85.

"LL" = very long-barreled (55+ calibers long), very high velocity guns. A few AT and AFV guns. Usually deadly against any target save for some extra-heavy tanks. Typical example: British 76LL mounted on Sherman Firefly.

Some other general rules:

The accuracy and penetrating power of small-calibre guns decreases faster at long ranges;
Higher muzzle velocity also implies better accuracy at long range: a 75LL is much more accurate than a 75 (don't engage in long range duels with Panthers if you all you have are 75mm-armed Shermans) "


Hi UP844,

Had to bring this forum topic back to life because I like what you did on the first go around with the AFV tables.

Where you ever able to finish them or if not do you need some help?

I could maybe start getting dates for the vehicles in TotH.

Thanks

Big Ivan




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Big Ivan -- 9/6/2017 7:29:39 PM >


_____________________________

Blitz call sign Big Ivan.

(in reply to UP844)
Post #: 26
RE: Units data on the UI - 9/6/2017 10:52:40 PM   
UP844


Posts: 1554
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From: Genoa, Republic of Genoa (occupied by Italy)
Status: offline
Hello Big Ivan,

I was just working on a 2nd draft. You made several fine remarks, and I will add such items to the new draft.

As for turret type, I do not know if TOTH makes the fine distinction between fast/normal/slow rotating turrets. I could make one of my famous 100-shot firing tests to see if a Sherman has a higher chance to hit after rotating its turret than a KV-II, but it would be nice if Peter could shed some light about this feature.
As for radio, I think the info is already there, but as a note. It would be better to have a dedicated column. This is also true for AFV that must be CE to fire mentioned by Hailstone.

In fact, now I see my booklet can be easily understood only by diehard ASL fans .

I will release draft 2 in a short time.

Thanks for the input!

_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

Long Range Fire (A7.22)........1/2 FP

(in reply to Big Ivan)
Post #: 27
RE: Units data on the UI - 9/6/2017 11:23:30 PM   
Peter Fisla


Posts: 2439
Joined: 10/5/2001
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UP844

Hello Big Ivan,

I was just working on a 2nd draft. You made several fine remarks, and I will add such items to the new draft.

As for turret type, I do not know if TOTH makes the fine distinction between fast/normal/slow rotating turrets. I could make one of my famous 100-shot firing tests to see if a Sherman has a higher chance to hit after rotating its turret than a KV-II, but it would be nice if Peter could shed some light about this feature.
As for radio, I think the info is already there, but as a note. It would be better to have a dedicated column. This is also true for AFV that must be CE to fire mentioned by Hailstone.

In fact, now I see my booklet can be easily understood only by diehard ASL fans .

I will release draft 2 in a short time.

Thanks for the input!


Turret can be: Fast, slow, one man turret, restricted slow

(in reply to UP844)
Post #: 28
RE: Units data on the UI - 9/7/2017 12:19:37 AM   
Hailstone


Posts: 639
Joined: 1/19/2016
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline
May I suggest the mod, "ASL3D" by ASL3D for his depiction of slow vs fast turrets that matches ASL. ASL3D's AFV's have the white square to indicate the slow turrets and a circle to indicate the fast turrets. I'm so glad this thread has come back to life because I learned that the AFV's have been modeled as in ASL. I appreciate ASL3D's mod all the more. Additionally, the armor ratings for front and side/rear are also depicted on those AFV counters to include hull vs turret armor. I suspect the hull armor ratings are taken into account but does TotH differentiate between hull vs turret hits? Curious and incompetent minds want to know.

(in reply to Peter Fisla)
Post #: 29
RE: Units data on the UI - 9/7/2017 12:28:51 AM   
UP844


Posts: 1554
Joined: 3/3/2016
From: Genoa, Republic of Genoa (occupied by Italy)
Status: offline
@Peter: thanks for the clarification!

@Hailstone: I will look for the mod: it will spare me hours of search through the Internet.

TOTH does differentiate between hull and turret hits: when you hit an AFV the message box will state "Front/Side/Rear Turret/Hull Hit".

_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

Long Range Fire (A7.22)........1/2 FP

(in reply to Hailstone)
Post #: 30
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