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Japanese destroyer upgrades - 1/12/2017 11:53:07 PM   
rustysi


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I've seen discussions on this topic, but not a lot and I've seen none IRT what I'm going to ask here. I know a lot here say no to such upgrades as eventually these destroyers will loses 20-33% of their heavy AAA. Not doing such upgrades will also deny many of these same destroyers the type 2 DC, which is the best Japan gets.

In addition to that it will deny these same destroyers that 37k range radar. Now I look at this as a surface radar, which should bring up the DL on subs and allow for more frequent attacks. That coupled with the improved DC's these destroyers will possess should, I would expect, result in higher losses to Allied subs. I haven't gotten far enough into the game to check this hypothesis and just thought I'd ask.

Have any JFB's noticed any such... Inquiring minds would like to know.



_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb
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RE: Japanese destroyer upgrades - 1/13/2017 3:49:05 AM   
BBfanboy


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Haven't played the Japanese side much, but from reading AARs it seems the E's fill the role for a good ASW vessel and your DDs might be better used in the AA or SC battles. IIUC, you can build as many E's as your industrial production priorities allow.

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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RE: Japanese destroyer upgrades - 1/13/2017 3:55:31 AM   
rustysi


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I'm talking about the better destroyers that would be escorting my CVTF's and such. My philosophy is to let my fighters defend the fleet from the air and destroyers along with some ASW float planes defend against the under water threat.

The "E's" which come in later are just that, escorts for my resource/oil/fuel convoys.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 3
RE: Japanese destroyer upgrades - 1/13/2017 6:34:53 AM   
Barb


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Most of the navies build their Fleet Destroyers with heavy surface gun/torpedo armament pre-war. But as the war developed and airplanes became the main threat to surface ships, a call for better AA defense was necessary.
Eg.
- Some older British Destroyers had only a single purpose 4in/4.7in guns as main armament and single Pom-Pom installed for AA defense. These older ships usually landed part of their anti-surface guns to allow for close in AA suite, or had several guns changed for Dual Purpose or AA gun (these were usually the rear guns). Also as Hedgehog/Mousetrap appeared a space for them was needed on the bow and thus a forward-most gun was landed to make a place for them.
So starting with A-B-(Single Pom-Pom)-X-Y surface-only suite they finished the war with (Hedgehog)-B-(Pom-Pom)-4/2xBofors-3inch AA gun + DC stowage. These older ships usually served in convoy escort/coastal patrol duties.
- Even more modern ships with Dual purpose turrets and guns had their AA suite upgraded for the loss of some surface/torpedo armament. A typical example is a Benson/Gleaves class. Starting with 5x5inch/38, 6x.50mm and 2x5 TT, they gradually shifted towards 4x5in/38, 2x2x40mm Bofors, 7x20mm and just 5 TTs (essentially landed their No.3 position 5inch and after Torpedo tubes). With evolution finishing by "Emergency Kamikaze upgrade" with 4x5inch/38, 2x4x40mm and 2x2x40mm Bofors, 7x20mm and no torpedo tubes.

The Japanese ships generally evolved in similar ways, the older ones going down to just 1-2x120mm anti-surface gun, multiple 25mm guns and Depth Charges serving as escorts (up to the Mutsuki class) and the more modern ones (like Asashio, Kagero-classes) starting with 3x2x127mm/50 gun turrets (A-X-Y) or (Fubuki to Shiratsuyu) 2x2+1x1x127mm (A-B-X) had to land their "X" or "B" turret to offset multiple 25mm AA guns added to the ships (torpedo tubes were usually retained).

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RE: Japanese destroyer upgrades - 1/13/2017 2:09:16 PM   
mind_messing

 

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The upgrades reduce the main armament by 33% on most ships.

The boost to AA is negligible as the 25mm gun is pretty poor.

The radar and ASW upgrades are both good, especially the radar.

The big reduction in main armament doesn't actually matter for several reasons:

- The Fletchers are better armed anyways, and given an engagement where everything else is equal, the Fletchers and subsequent ships will win.
- Japanese destroyers depend on their torpedo armament for surface combat anyways.
- Radar has a big role in determining the outcome of late-war surface engagements.
- ASW is massively enhanced. The Type 95 DC is all but useless.

In short, it depends what you're using your DD for.

If it's surface combat, upgrade a few DD's to serve as destroyer leaders, providing radar. To my mind, if you're in a surface engagement with the Allies at the point where these upgrades roll around, you're going to lose if you depend on your DD's guns to carry the day.

If it's escort, upgrade them.

FWIW, I upgraded all my DD's. Don't regret it. They've done quite well, even if most of the heavy lifting on surface engagements has been borne by the IJN heavy cruiser force.

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RE: Japanese destroyer upgrades - 1/13/2017 3:38:05 PM   
Alpha77

 

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One DD class will also lose torp tubes :( I think it depends how your campaign goes, if you have sunk already some / many Allied SF ships you might rather want the better DCs and radar. OTH if Allied SF forces are a huge threat you perhaps want to keep the 12,7cm guns and torps....

..however the type 95 DC is useless only sometimes in shallow water it will hit and then does not cause much damage. Compare to type2 and I think these are neccessary or your DDs will be useless as asw ships (even with 95 mod2 which is worse then 2)....

@ BB fanboy: But these E you talk about are either way to slow or have too short range for SF or CV fleets. They should be good for Tk, amph and cargo protection tho... I think one E-class has 19 or so knots while others only 16 but you want your CV fleet not that slow or do you?

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 1/13/2017 3:45:48 PM >

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RE: Japanese destroyer upgrades - 1/13/2017 3:48:37 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

One DD class will also lose torp tubes :( I think it depends how your campaign goes, if you have sunk already some / many Allied SF ships you might rather want the better DCs and radar. OTH if Allied SF forces are a huge threat you perhaps want to keep the 12,7cm guns and torps....

..however the type 95 DC is useless only sometimes in shallow water it will hit and then does not cause much damage. Compare to type2 and I think these are neccessary or your DDs will be useless as asw ships (even with 95 mod2 which is worse then 2)....

@ BB fanboy: But these E you talk about are either way to slow or have too short range for SF or CV fleets. They should be good for Tk, amph and cargo protection tho... I think one E-class has 19 or so knots while others only 16 but you want your CV fleet not that slow or do you?

The OP said nothing about escorting CVs or other fast ships - all it talked about was changing the DD armament. You will get no argument from me about needing to have fast escorts with the fast capital ships.

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RE: Japanese destroyer upgrades - 1/13/2017 3:56:37 PM   
Alpha77

 

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Ah ok I see sorry, however DDs (at least in scen1 when they are more rare) are seldom used to escort convois by IJ , perhaps high values ones once in a while (eg. i use older DDs now for faster tanker convois - because I do not have E class yet and SC are too slow and low range)
(or the KB is sunk and you can use them otherwise now)

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RE: Japanese destroyer upgrades - 1/13/2017 4:15:25 PM   
Puhis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

I've seen discussions on this topic, but not a lot and I've seen none IRT what I'm going to ask here. I know a lot here say no to such upgrades as eventually these destroyers will loses 20-33% of their heavy AAA. Not doing such upgrades will also deny many of these same destroyers the type 2 DC, which is the best Japan gets.



In the real world, some of the japanese 12,7 cm turrets were not AA capable. Only type D 12,7 cm turrets used by Yugumo-class were real DP guns. So they removed one turret to get more AA guns.

Historically Yugumos did not loose the 3rd turret, so here the stock game got it wrong. Babes mods have fixed gun stats for japanese DDs, for example Kageros main guns does not have any AA value.

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RE: Japanese destroyer upgrades - 1/13/2017 4:28:42 PM   
Lokasenna


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You should look at the Matsu-class DD. Yes, it isn't as fast as your CVs, but it provides yet another reason for putting your Yamatos in with your CVs (they have good AA and soak bombs; better than losing them in failed SCTFs IMO) as they are the same speed as those. They're basically AA/ASW DDs.

The ASW upgrade from Type 95 Mod-2 to Type 2 goes like so:
Type 95 Mod-2 - Range 295, Acc 7, Effect 324
Type 2 - Range 476, Acc 9, Effect 357

So it's a pretty solid upgrade, however the Mod-2 still goes deep enough to combat Allied subs. The regular Type 95 does not, but those DDs that have Type 95's onboard will upgrade to Type 95 Mod-2 without losing anything at the very least. I avoid building the SCs that only carry only Type 95 as not only are they slow, they're worthless in anything but coastal waters. But back to DDs. In order to get the Type 2 DC, here's what each class gives up (excluding Wakatake and Momi/Momo as they change to E-type):

Mutsuki - loses half of its torp tubes (6 down to 3), which are 61cm to boot, and 1 of its 3 guns. Loses air search radar, gains surface radar. Gains 7x 25mm guns. Ovinomancer's verdict: don't upgrade in 4/44

Minekaze - loses air search radar, gains surface radar. Loses no guns, or torpedoes. Gains some AA. In addition, previous DC model is just Type 95. Ovinomancer's verdict: obvious choice for upgrade in 4/44

Kamikaze - loses 1 of its 3 guns. Retains its torpedoes (53cm). Previous DC model is just Type 95. Gains air search radar (no surface radar available). Ovinomancer's verdict: obvious choice for ugprade in 4/44

Fubuki(all 3 models) - loses nothing, gains some AA and gains surface radar. Ovinomancer's verdict: obvious upgrade in 3/44

Hatsuharu - Gains Type 2 in 8/42, but in 9/43 will give up 1 main gun for more AA and surface radar. Gains air radar in 4/44. Ovinomancer's verdict: upgrade them all

Shiratsuyu - In addition to gaining the Type 2, its 7/42 upgrade splits its torp tubes from a single mount of 8 to 2 mounts of 4. Given how the game works, this makes them less likely to hit, but... Ovinomancer's verdict: upgrade them all the way through

Kagero - here is a tricky one. In 12/42, gains the Type 2 DCs, but loses 2 of its 6 guns. Does not get radar until 12/43. In 9/44, gains air radar as well. Ovinomancer's verdict: judgment call, and mine is to skip the 12/42 upgrade and wait for the 12/43 upgrade.


The following classes lose no armament in their upgrade chains (some even start with the Type 2):
Asashio
Yugumo
Akitsuki
Shimakaze
Matsu

< Message edited by Lokasenna -- 1/13/2017 4:29:11 PM >

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RE: Japanese destroyer upgrades - 1/13/2017 9:58:23 PM   
rustysi


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Thanks guys for the input and for the most part my thinking is in-line with that discussed here.

Just a few observations of my own to add. All are based on stock scen1, latest beta.


quote:

Mutsuki


My knock on these DD's is an endurance of only 4k.

quote:

Fubuki(all 3 models) - loses nothing,


In one of the 'upgrades' it goes from 4.7k to 4k endurance.

I like to have the 5k and 6k DD's do the escort for my SCTF's and CVTF's. Of course there are those 8.4k(?) DD's, but they are few and a bit slow.

quote:

Shiratsuyu


I believe this DD loses one of its five heavy AAA guns, but still will upgrade them.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 11
RE: Japanese destroyer upgrades - 1/13/2017 10:15:26 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

I avoid building the SCs that only carry only Type 95 as not only are they slow, they're worthless in anything but coastal waters.


Hey Lokasenna, just a little something to consider. Not that you haven't already, but in case. If we are talking about the same vessels, the tuna boats of ~99T. There are quite a few coastal areas. These are somewhat useful in the straights by Malaya and in the Philippines. Also around Singers and Oosthaven as they can at least harass Dutch and British subs. In addition I use them in the Tsushima Strait to at least try to close that entrance to the Sea of Japan. They are also useful pickets, and IIRC they only yield one VP when lost. Of course MHO.

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RE: Japanese destroyer upgrades - 1/13/2017 11:33:36 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

I avoid building the SCs that only carry only Type 95 as not only are they slow, they're worthless in anything but coastal waters.


Hey Lokasenna, just a little something to consider. Not that you haven't already, but in case. If we are talking about the same vessels, the tuna boats of ~99T. There are quite a few coastal areas. These are somewhat useful in the straights by Malaya and in the Philippines. Also around Singers and Oosthaven as they can at least harass Dutch and British subs. In addition I use them in the Tsushima Strait to at least try to close that entrance to the Sea of Japan. They are also useful pickets, and IIRC they only yield one VP when lost. Of course MHO.


Sure, but they cost 30 HI to build and then there's their fuel cost! There are plenty of the slightly bigger class that is 60 HI to build and carries Type 95 Mod-2's.


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

Thanks guys for the input and for the most part my thinking is in-line with that discussed here.

Just a few observations of my own to add. All are based on stock scen1, latest beta.


quote:

Mutsuki


My knock on these DD's is an endurance of only 4k.

quote:

Fubuki(all 3 models) - loses nothing,


In one of the 'upgrades' it goes from 4.7k to 4k endurance.

I like to have the 5k and 6k DD's do the escort for my SCTF's and CVTF's. Of course there are those 8.4k(?) DD's, but they are few and a bit slow.

quote:

Shiratsuyu


I believe this DD loses one of its five heavy AAA guns, but still will upgrade them.


Well sure, but I was really only looking at main weaponry.

The Shiratsuyu is basically a sub-class of Hatsuharu and follows pretty much the same upgrade pattern.

(in reply to rustysi)
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RE: Japanese destroyer upgrades - 3/17/2017 4:48:47 PM   
geoffreyg


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I have recently come across this interesting thread when just about to decide on the Yugumo 12/43 upgrade.
In stock scenario 1 they do in fact lose 2 x 12.7cm DP guns in return for surface radar and some 25mm AA.
My understanding is that the 12.7cm guns contribute to overall AA for a TF whilst the 25mm do not. Thus they become less effective in an AA screening role for carriers.
Welcome views as to whether to upgrade these. Many thanks in advance.

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RE: Japanese destroyer upgrades - 3/17/2017 6:54:46 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geoffreyg

I have recently come across this interesting thread when just about to decide on the Yugumo 12/43 upgrade.
In stock scenario 1 they do in fact lose 2 x 12.7cm DP guns in return for surface radar and some 25mm AA.
My understanding is that the 12.7cm guns contribute to overall AA for a TF whilst the 25mm do not. Thus they become less effective in an AA screening role for carriers.
Welcome views as to whether to upgrade these. Many thanks in advance.


Why would the 25mm AA not contribute against attacks on other ships? They should.

However, range may be a factor... a 2.5cm gun is not going to shoot as far as a 12.7cm DP gun.

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RE: Japanese destroyer upgrades - 3/17/2017 7:08:17 PM   
Lowpe


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In dababes they don't have DP guns.


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RE: Japanese destroyer upgrades - 3/17/2017 7:23:03 PM   
geoffreyg


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My comment was based on my recollection of a forum post but it might of course have been the range point that the poster was alluding to.
I see the database gives a 4k' range and 7k' ceiling for the 25mm and 20k' range and 40k' ceiling for the 12.7cm. So the latter is far better at contributing to CV protection on a gun by gun basis.

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RE: Japanese destroyer upgrades - 3/17/2017 8:53:35 PM   
Kull


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geoffreyg

My comment was based on my recollection of a forum post but it might of course have been the range point that the poster was alluding to.
I see the database gives a 4k' range and 7k' ceiling for the 25mm and 20k' range and 40k' ceiling for the 12.7cm. So the latter is far better at contributing to CV protection on a gun by gun basis.


There was a good Mike Solli thread on Japanese Escorts. The "DP for TF AA" comments don't come up until post #24.

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RE: Japanese destroyer upgrades - 3/17/2017 9:17:16 PM   
geoffreyg


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Many thanks Kull for the reference to that thread.
There seems a reasonable amount of support for keeping the 12.7cm DP guns around for a while.

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RE: Japanese destroyer upgrades - 3/17/2017 10:30:22 PM   
Dili

 

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Retired. Not much added.

< Message edited by Dili -- 3/17/2017 10:38:21 PM >

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RE: Japanese destroyer upgrades - 3/18/2017 12:08:30 AM   
cardas

 

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Aircraft attacking ships can be attacked by shipborne AA guns in three different phases;

1. Approach
2. Attack
3. Outbound

The first and third phase is done at the set altitude of the air group and so is the second (attack) phase if level bombing. In case of TBs the attack phase is at 200 feet, dive bombing at 1000-4000 feet and glide bombing at 2000-5000 feet.

In the attack phase only the ship being attacked fires its AA guns. On the approach and outbound phase guns from all ships in the TF can fire if the altitude is within the ceiling of the AA gun. Unknown penalties due to TF size applies.

So yes, 25 mm guns are useless for fleet defence unless your opponent is sending in groups at a very low altitude.

There's a post about this somewhere if you search around.

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RE: Japanese destroyer upgrades - 3/18/2017 8:28:44 AM   
geoffreyg


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Many thanks Cardas - very clear exposition.
The 12/43 Yugumo upgrade in Scenario 1 stock loses 2 x 12.7cm DP's in return for more 25mm plus surface radar.
In December 1943 the Japanese have many good ASW vessels that can screen CV's.
Would this lead to the conclusion that one should not upgrade the Yugumo's then but wait until the 9/44 upgrade when they gain air radar?

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Post #: 22
RE: Japanese destroyer upgrades - 3/19/2017 2:13:48 AM   
rustysi


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Ahem, there are other factors here which we seem to be forgetting. As mentioned above, the surface search radar and upgraded DC's for these Japanese DD's. IMHO these DC upgrades are important as they come about the same time that the US torps are improving. Subs are a real threat and ASW if neglected is at your own peril. I'll state again, let the fighters defend the air while the DD's defend the depths. Besides all said and done Japanese AAA is nothing compared to what they will face against the US surface vessels. Of course JMHO, even if strongly stated.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

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Post #: 23
RE: Japanese destroyer upgrades - 3/19/2017 1:07:01 PM   
Lowpe


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I go for the upgrades. Radar and the depth charges are too nice. A few extra dp guns among your destroyers won't stop the Allies but a few more minutes warning on the air raid can be really significant. I do like the CLAA upgrade for Tenryu though...and I think every JFB needs to stuff the KB with as much AA you possibly can I just feel radar is much more important.

This was discussed at length in Captain Crufts Hive AAR, where he wanted to not do the upgrades for the destroyers that lost torpedo tubes. Given his planned tactics, I think the correct decision for his game. Unfortunately, the game ended prior to finding out how well his wall of torpedoes would have done.


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RE: Japanese destroyer upgrades - 3/19/2017 6:32:52 PM   
geoffreyg


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I don't disagree with the generality of the foregoing helpful comments but when one is looking at the 12/43 upgrades to the Yugumo's one loses (in Scenario 1 stock) 2 x 12.7cm DP's in return for more not very useful 25mm plus surface radar. Air radar does not arrive until the 9/44 upgrade which does look worth doing.
As mentioned in December 1943 the Japanese have many good ASW vessels that can screen CV's including the lovely Akitsuki's which are all round great.
I continue to lean towards waiting for the 9/44 upgrade.


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Post #: 25
RE: Japanese destroyer upgrades - 3/19/2017 7:21:55 PM   
PaxMondo


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Not disagreeing with anything here, but the 12.7 DP's shouldn't be DP, that's an easter egg from the Dev's. The 12.7's couldn't be loaded with the barrels above 15 degree elevation (or something like that). So to fire an AA round, they had to be fully depressed before reloading ... not really a DP in my book. ROF is like 5/minute ... the IJN 100/65 or 80/60 were truly DP's. ROF's were +20/min at essentially any elevation.



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Post #: 26
RE: Japanese destroyer upgrades - 3/19/2017 10:22:58 PM   
Dili

 

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Precisely. In the game they seem almost or better(more effect) than 100mm of Akizuki class. Does not make sense.

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Post #: 27
RE: Japanese destroyer upgrades - 3/19/2017 10:44:55 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

I do like the CLAA upgrade for Tenryu though


Yup, and there are some other CL's which can upgrade to CLAA's later.

quote:

I think every JFB needs to stuff the KB with as much AA you possibly can


Pretty much goes without saying.

quote:

I just feel radar is much more important


By the time the DD's start getting air search radar, all Japanese CV's should already have it. I, on the other hand like the surface radar as I feel it should help with the DL on enemy subs.

Pax, thanks. Good points. I hadn't realized those guns were not really DP's.


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 28
RE: Japanese destroyer upgrades - 3/20/2017 4:51:58 PM   
geoffreyg


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I think I would concur that the Yugumo 12.7cm's are a touch flattered by being classed as DP - however I take the view that you have to take the smooth with the rough when looking at the WITP-AE database.
On another related point the Agano's twin 15cm guns are shown as having a ceiling in tracker although not classed as DP. I assume this implies they have some AA capability although as I think they dated from 1912 I would find that somewhat doubtful!

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Post #: 29
RE: Japanese destroyer upgrades - 3/20/2017 6:56:15 PM   
wolfe69

 

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Type 95 DC are useless lol, not really they are good. Depending on the ship crew's experience and the captain. I manage to sink a American sub in deep water and very nasty in shallow waters as well. As long you have good detection levels, crew's experience and the right hardware, you will do something nasty.

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