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What does AI mean to you? - 1/6/2017 10:34:49 AM   
aaatoysandmore

 

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AI has always been an interesting topic. Seems so many have a different view of what an AI is. Some see an AI as a thinking animal that should be at least as smart as them.

Some see it as merely a number of numbers that react to other numbers in the face of a situation.

I see an AI as a combining of several things as a whole. I don't just see an AI as being only making tactical and strategic decisions by the numbers (fuzzy logic I think they call it) but adding in the handicaps and advantages as well as the difficulty level. That's what "I" look for in an AI, how well it combines them altogether as a whole to become challenging. I don't really care if it sees my moves or where I'm located or any of that. I'm not looking for a human opponent or a fair one out of an AI as much as I'm looking for a "challenge" out of it.

Too many games don't put enough difficulty levels for the AI and many games like a lot of Matrixgames/Slitherine games only put one. I'd like to see more handicaps and difficulty levels in future wargame AI.

What's your take on an ai and what would you like to see added or changed?
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RE: What does AI mean to you? - 1/6/2017 11:21:26 AM   
TulliusDetritus


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What's the AI? Artificial Idiot?

Seriously, the thing that allows me to enjoy a game. So that "idiot" is a useful idiot in fact I always follow this rule of thumb: never ever break the AI. Doing that is just like a kid breaking his toy.

Human is the best option, that goes without saying, but it's a commitment I am not ready to accept (well, I did in WitE and AGEOD ACW 2). Exceptions. I'm an AI guy.

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RE: What does AI mean to you? - 1/6/2017 11:27:34 AM   
zakblood


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the AI is everything to me, as i don't plan to or play online with others, so no AI or a poor AI means either once bought it doesn't get played, or it's so thick and un playable that i wished i hadn't played or bought it.

while i don't mind me cheating to gain an advantage against the AI, i don't wish the AI to have cheats built in to beat or make it un playable to me, one rule for me is fine, but a different rule for the AI isn't a good start, like it being able to see in FOW, then again i like it turned off for me so i get a easier ride, and only alter it if i win too ease and want more or a challenge, then again if i've bought it, i wish to play it how i like, and not how the developer has wished also, so i like quite a lot of freedom, no win games or battles can be rather boring quickly, and also pointless unless you wish to relive a history time frame etc

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RE: What does AI mean to you? - 1/6/2017 11:40:08 AM   
E

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore
What's your take on an ai and what would you like to see added or changed?

I'm with Stephen Hawking on this one!


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RE: What does AI mean to you? - 1/6/2017 12:55:30 PM   
wodin


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Be able to play a game that I wouldn't have been able to do with out it. That's it really. It's inclusion is vital if I'm going to purchase.

Also thankful I'm rubbish at games as I read a lot of people moaning about how useless AI's are and yet for me unless it's actually broke I've never had any problem with it! Hurrah for being rubbish.

< Message edited by wodin -- 1/6/2017 12:57:23 PM >


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RE: What does AI mean to you? - 1/6/2017 6:55:48 PM   
altipueri

 

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From the OP
"Too many games don't put enough difficulty levels for the AI and many games like a lot of Matrixgames/Slitherine games only put one. I'd like to see more handicaps and difficulty levels in future wargame AI. "

I agree so much with this. Give me as much latitude to play the game as possible. This applies to other things as well as difficulty.

"You like waving flags" - no I bloody don't, so let me turn them off.
"You like a hundred different pop up messages" - no I bloody don't - so let me turn them off easily, not requiring hours of work - mostly against Paradox that one :)

Bonus rant:

Update the ***king manuals.

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RE: What does AI mean to you? - 1/6/2017 7:27:02 PM   
warspite1


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[Hand shoots up] Ooh ooh I know this one. It means Artificial Intelligence

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RE: What does AI mean to you? - 1/6/2017 8:31:10 PM   
bairdlander


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quote:

ORIGINAL: altipueri

.
"You like a hundred different pop up messages" - no I bloody don't - so let me turn them off easily, not requiring hours of work - mostly against Paradox that one :)

Bonus rant:

Update the ***king manuals.

The pop ups can be switched off in options.Takes approximately one and a half seconds, not hours.

< Message edited by bairdlander -- 1/6/2017 8:32:38 PM >

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RE: What does AI mean to you? - 1/6/2017 8:47:32 PM   
aaatoysandmore

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

quote:

ORIGINAL: altipueri

.
"You like a hundred different pop up messages" - no I bloody don't - so let me turn them off easily, not requiring hours of work - mostly against Paradox that one :)

Bonus rant:

Update the ***king manuals.

The pop ups can be switched off in options.Takes approximately one and a half seconds, not hours.


You haven't played CK2 have you?

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RE: What does AI mean to you? - 1/6/2017 9:19:12 PM   
bairdlander


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Actually I was the assistant producer on that game,so I think I know what I am talking about

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RE: What does AI mean to you? - 1/6/2017 11:29:07 PM   
Rosseau

 

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Back on topic, most AIs are okay until you learn the system. Fortunately, I don't read manuals much anymore and with so many games, and being slow anyway, I never learn the system. So AI stays pretty good.

Also, most people still play single player over MP, so AI is important. Unless that stat is changing due to all the MMO Steam games.

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RE: What does AI mean to you? - 1/6/2017 11:53:34 PM   
aaatoysandmore

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

Actually I was the assistant producer on that game,so I think I know what I am talking about


Don't think you do. You have to set each popup to different styles of information. Priority, 2nd class or 3rd class or message and whether to have the game stop or continue when the message pops up.

There is no button that turns them all off.

< Message edited by aaatoysandmore -- 1/6/2017 11:54:03 PM >

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RE: What does AI mean to you? - 1/7/2017 12:03:25 PM   
pzgndr

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore
Some see an AI as a thinking animal that should be at least as smart as them.
Some see it as merely a number of numbers that react to other numbers in the face of a situation.
I see an AI as a combining of several things as a whole. I don't just see an AI as being only making tactical and strategic decisions by the numbers (fuzzy logic I think they call it) but adding in the handicaps and advantages as well as the difficulty level. That's what "I" look for in an AI, how well it combines them altogether as a whole to become challenging.


The typical game AI is certainly not a thinking/learning creature. It is a programmable computer opponent. That's neither good or bad, that's just the way it is. It can certainly be challenging or not challenging, depending on the solitaire player and his expectations. A lot depends on the programmer and how much time is devoted to including factors that make the computer opponent challenging: variability of decisions, probabilities that mimic what a human player does, difficulty levels not for "cheats" but as compensation for various AI weaknesses, etc.

A decent AI should play the game well by the rules and make reasonable choices at the strategic, operational and tactical levels. The player gets to play, whenever he wants to at his convenience against an always-willing computer opponent. And frankly, that's an important aspect of computer wargames for many players. It's just a game.

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RE: What does AI mean to you? - 1/7/2017 12:21:11 PM   
operating


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When I see or read about an AI's shortcomings that are reported, also like to see or read that adjustments and play testing is being done as a result, it depends on how much expense the devs wish to dedicate to these problem areas.

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RE: What does AI mean to you? - 1/7/2017 5:31:29 PM   
aaatoysandmore

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr


quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore
Some see an AI as a thinking animal that should be at least as smart as them.
Some see it as merely a number of numbers that react to other numbers in the face of a situation.
I see an AI as a combining of several things as a whole. I don't just see an AI as being only making tactical and strategic decisions by the numbers (fuzzy logic I think they call it) but adding in the handicaps and advantages as well as the difficulty level. That's what "I" look for in an AI, how well it combines them altogether as a whole to become challenging.


The typical game AI is certainly not a thinking/learning creature. It is a programmable computer opponent. That's neither good or bad, that's just the way it is. It can certainly be challenging or not challenging, depending on the solitaire player and his expectations. A lot depends on the programmer and how much time is devoted to including factors that make the computer opponent challenging: variability of decisions, probabilities that mimic what a human player does, difficulty levels not for "cheats" but as compensation for various AI weaknesses, etc.

A decent AI should play the game well by the rules and make reasonable choices at the strategic, operational and tactical levels. The player gets to play, whenever he wants to at his convenience against an always-willing computer opponent. And frankly, that's an important aspect of computer wargames for many players. It's just a game.


The developers of Galactic Civ II last expansion tout a "learning" AI based on player moves at higher difficulties. Perhaps there are some that can finally learn as the player moves. I've always said this should be possible now with larger hard drives to be able to record the players moves game after game and look for patterns in the players movement. That's why I find Galactic Civ II a very good game and AI to play against. I was able to find one that could challenge me that appeared to be countering my moves.

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RE: What does AI mean to you? - 1/7/2017 10:18:05 PM   
Franciscus


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For me a game HAS to have an AI, because I only play SP. I love a decent AI, and there are some games out there with them. I also prefer that the AI plays by the same rules as a human player, without cheats, although that is sometimes impossible.
Of course, if one tries to break an AI, sooner or later it "breaks". But that is not fun to me, I love to play "historically" and I am not a "top notch" wargamer so usually I get all that I want from a good AI.

I know nothing of programming, but know that an AI of an historical strategy/wargame, one way or the other has to have some form of scripts to help her play along what is historically expected/reasonable.
I personally have had lots of fun using some simple scripts- and an advanced form of "scripts" developed by Pocus ("Agents")- in HAN scenarios and some of AJE and PAR scenarios too - if you play against Hannibal "AI" in the second punic war scenarios you can expect the AI to be able to mount a proper Italy invasion across the Alps, which was something the "generic" coded AI never did (probably because it deemed it a completely crazy move ) and to have a "plan" of what to do and how to do it once he gets to Italia


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RE: What does AI mean to you? - 1/7/2017 10:41:27 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Franciscus
I personally have had lots of fun using some simple scripts- and an advanced form of "scripts" developed by Pocus ("Agents")- in HAN scenarios and some of AJE and PAR scenarios too - if you play against Hannibal "AI" in the second punic war scenarios you can expect the AI to be able to mount a proper Italy invasion across the Alps, which was something the "generic" coded AI never did (probably because it deemed it a completely crazy move ) and to have a "plan" of what to do and how to do it once he gets to Italia



And these scripts are public? Care to provide a link, please?

I usually play the 216 B.C scenario (after Cannae) as Rome, obviously. I would try to stop the Punic juggernaut trashing everything after the crossing of the Alps.

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RE: What does AI mean to you? - 1/7/2017 11:22:36 PM   
Franciscus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Franciscus
I personally have had lots of fun using some simple scripts- and an advanced form of "scripts" developed by Pocus ("Agents")- in HAN scenarios and some of AJE and PAR scenarios too - if you play against Hannibal "AI" in the second punic war scenarios you can expect the AI to be able to mount a proper Italy invasion across the Alps, which was something the "generic" coded AI never did (probably because it deemed it a completely crazy move ) and to have a "plan" of what to do and how to do it once he gets to Italia



And these scripts are public? Care to provide a link, please?

I usually play the 216 B.C scenario (after Cannae) as Rome, obviously. I would try to stop the Punic juggernaut trashing everything after the crossing of the Alps.


They are not exactly public, but can be modded, of course. The modding of events and scripts in the game (as opposed to in the source DB that are not yet public) is not user-friendly, though...

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RE: What does AI mean to you? - 1/7/2017 11:44:47 PM   
Rosseau

 

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That's probably the number-one reason I buy Ageod games - access to the scripts. But yes, I have learned my lessons how touchy modding that engine (and others) can be. However, I enjoy changing the unit stats and a few game events through the scripts.

Sorry, TulliusDetritus. Yes, altering or deleting that event might be quite easy to do, or could screw things up the event pipeline. I would try it for you but don't have the game installed.

It could be as easy as changing the date that the event fires to after the game, but another event might depend on its firing. Easy to test by finding the main XXX.sct event file for that scenario, searching for the event and backing up before changing anything.

< Message edited by rosseau -- 1/7/2017 11:54:27 PM >

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RE: What does AI mean to you? - 1/8/2017 2:47:29 AM   
Qwixt


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In the context of PC gaming, simply put, it's the computer opponent. Outside of PC gaming, it means something different.

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RE: What does AI mean to you? - 1/8/2017 4:32:33 AM   
Aurelian

 

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Ohh, Ohh, Allen Iverson.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Iverson

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RE: What does AI mean to you? - 1/8/2017 12:01:38 PM   
aaatoysandmore

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Ohh, Ohh, Allen Iverson.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Iverson


Were there computers before Roswell?

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RE: What does AI mean to you? - 1/8/2017 7:18:11 PM   
Chickenboy


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For a poultry veterinarian, this is confusing.

My first thought regarding what "AI" means? Avian influenza. Artificial insemination is frequently used in the industry as well-that runs a close second.

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RE: What does AI mean to you? - 1/8/2017 7:25:52 PM   
Franciscus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Franciscus
I personally have had lots of fun using some simple scripts- and an advanced form of "scripts" developed by Pocus ("Agents")- in HAN scenarios and some of AJE and PAR scenarios too - if you play against Hannibal "AI" in the second punic war scenarios you can expect the AI to be able to mount a proper Italy invasion across the Alps, which was something the "generic" coded AI never did (probably because it deemed it a completely crazy move ) and to have a "plan" of what to do and how to do it once he gets to Italia



And these scripts are public? Care to provide a link, please?

I usually play the 216 B.C scenario (after Cannae) as Rome, obviously. I would try to stop the Punic juggernaut trashing everything after the crossing of the Alps.


Hi again

Reading again your post I may have explained myself wrongly. The scripts and agents I worked on in the AJE games, together with the rest of the team, ARE already present and active in the games, with latest patche(s)

Regards


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RE: What does AI mean to you? - 1/8/2017 7:43:30 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Franciscus
The scripts and agents I worked on in the AJE games, together with the rest of the team, ARE already present and active in the games, with latest patche(s)

Regards



And I certainly did not install yet this latest patch (v 1.05 released in october 2015)

Many many thanks I was using the 216 B.C. scenario because I wanted to make sure 1) Hannibal made it to the central part of Italy and 2) he annihilated the two Consuls' Armies

Hannibal Ad Portas!!

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RE: What does AI mean to you? - 1/11/2017 12:46:02 PM   
Recognition


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AI = Annoying Intelligence...Well not always, and it depends on how seriously we play the games I suppose and what settings.

One things for sure, the AI will get better and better to a point where we simple humans might end up being out witted at every turn


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RE: What does AI mean to you? - 1/11/2017 1:42:06 PM   
aaatoysandmore

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rush

AI = Annoying Intelligence...Well not always, and it depends on how seriously we play the games I suppose and what settings.

One things for sure, the AI will get better and better to a point where we simple humans might end up being out witted at every turn



That's a dream I don't think I'll live to see sadly.

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RE: What does AI mean to you? - 1/11/2017 5:03:28 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rush

AI = Annoying Intelligence...Well not always, and it depends on how seriously we play the games I suppose and what settings.

One things for sure, the AI will get better and better to a point where we simple humans might end up being out witted at every turn



That's a dream I don't think I'll live to see sadly.



Cheer up! You won't see this A.I. and the machines taking over the world either! The Schwarzeneggeresque 1984 Terminator was just the apéritif

*Nostradamus Mode off*

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RE: What does AI mean to you? - 1/11/2017 11:12:58 PM   
E

 

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I still think Stephen Hawking is right on the money regarding A.I.

However, I think The Operational Art of War (TOAW) nailed the situation perfectly by referring to it as the "Programmed Opponent" (PO) when applied to/in a game.

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