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RE: GA statistical musings - 6/19/2017 1:55:10 PM   
szmike

 

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- how much HQ preparation affects combat?
- does command HQ affects combat the same way as HQc? say when LCU is in command range of unprepped command HQ, but no HQc around

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RE: GA statistical musings - 6/19/2017 4:21:58 PM   
Lokasenna


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Ah, I missed the TOE line.

I'd also be interested to know if having a command HQ within range, but no corps or army HQ, results in a boost to AV. I suspect yes.

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RE: GA statistical musings - 6/24/2017 4:43:42 PM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: szmike
- how much HQ preparation affects combat?
- does command HQ affects combat the same way as HQc? say when LCU is in command range of unprepped command HQ, but no HQc around

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
Ah, I missed the TOE line.

I'd also be interested to know if having a command HQ within range, but no corps or army HQ, results in a boost to AV. I suspect yes.

Had time to do some testing today with command HQs. Have some interesting results to report

TL;DR: LCU prep % helps in getting HQ bonus. HQ level of prep does not matter much, as long as HQ preps for the attacked base

As usual I ran a bunch of scenario starts with land battles in indentical bases happening, with IJ infantry division (TOE 450 squads+450 support) attacking US regiment (TOE 130 squads/mgs + 170 support). I wanted to get prefighting artillery duel and randoms associated with it out of the test. Command HQ with varying levels of prep was present either in hex, or in range, or absent altogether. ID also had varying prep for the base. All other editable variables (exp, morale, fatigue/disruption, commander stats) were set identical for all LCUs.

Results in the form of average observable adjusted AV (in % from base AV) for different combinations of factors is summarized in the table


Edit: updated a picture to a) take a peek at how middle prep works for LCUs. Seems like average HQ bonus linearly increases with it.
And b) made sure that non-prepping HQ bonus is not because of just its support squads




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by GetAssista -- 6/24/2017 6:39:51 PM >

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RE: GA statistical musings - 6/24/2017 5:27:47 PM   
Lokasenna


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What is the n on these?

It doesn't look like "in range, other" and "in hex, other" has a significant difference from each other. What about in range with prep?

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RE: GA statistical musings - 6/24/2017 5:36:57 PM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
What is the n on these?

What do you mean n? Each % number is an average of 100 attack results as noted
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
It doesn't look like "in range, other" and "in hex, other" has a significant difference from each other. What about in range with prep?

Yes, just the presense of HQ matters even if no relevant prep is there.
I did not test prep 100/50/0 in range instead of in hex, assumed HQ works like it should and provides the bonus while in range. Too much work for too little potential gain to test if this is indeed true (I assume it is).

edit: update the picture some

< Message edited by GetAssista -- 6/24/2017 6:40:13 PM >

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Post #: 35
RE: GA statistical musings - 6/25/2017 5:38:47 AM   
Lokasenna


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My eyes glazed and I missed the 100.

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Post #: 36
RE: GA statistical musings - 6/26/2017 3:51:03 PM   
Lowpe


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GA, command HQ with no subordinate HQs? I wonder if range plays a part...i.e. the greater the range the less the bonus?

Good information.

A 2014 post by Alfred on HQs...


1. LCU looks to see if a Corps HQ is in range. If a Corps HQ is found, proceed to points 2-6 below. If no Corps HQ is found, proceed to points 7-8 below



2. If Corps HQ is within range, the level and target of the Corps HQ is checked and a combat bonus within the range 0-10% may be given.

3. If more than one Corps HQ is within range, the levels and targets of the additional Corps HQs are not checked.

4. If a Corps HQ within range was found, the LCU then sees if a Command HQ is within 2x range.

5. If Command HQ is within 2x range, the level and target of the Command HQ is checked and an additional combat bonus within the range 0-90% may be given.

6. If more than one Command HQ is within 2x range, the levels and targets of the additional Command HQs are not checked.



7. If no Corps HQ is found by the LCU, it then looks to see if a Command HQ is in 1x range.

8. If a Command HQ is within 1x range, the level and target of the Command HQ is checked and a combat bonus within the range 0-10% may be given.



9. The combat bonus applies to combat conducted inside the named base.

10. An Army HQ = a Corps HQ. The only difference is that a Corps HQ usually has only a one hex range whereas an Army HQ might have a range of up to five hexes.


A LCU may therefore receive assistance from:

(a) one Corps HQ only, or
(b) one Corps HQ and one Command HQ, or
(c) one Command HQ only

Alfred


< Message edited by Lowpe -- 6/26/2017 4:35:42 PM >

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RE: GA statistical musings - 2/6/2018 7:22:49 AM   
Blackhorse


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GetAssista,

I just returned to the forum after a multi-year hiatus. I'm scanning the forums to glean whatever knowledge I can that I missed while I was away. This is great analysis.

Did you do any separate analysis on the effects of prep and HQs in non-base hexes, and/or on defending units?




quote:

TL;DR: LCU prep % helps in getting HQ bonus. HQ level of prep does not matter much, as long as HQ preps for the attacked base

As usual I ran a bunch of scenario starts with land battles in indentical bases happening, with IJ infantry division (TOE 450 squads+450 support) attacking US regiment (TOE 130 squads/mgs + 170 support). I wanted to get prefighting artillery duel and randoms associated with it out of the test. Command HQ with varying levels of prep was present either in hex, or in range, or absent altogether. ID also had varying prep for the base. All other editable variables (exp, morale, fatigue/disruption, commander stats) were set identical for all LCUs.

Results in the form of average observable adjusted AV (in % from base AV) for different combinations of factors is summarized in the table


Edit: updated a picture to a) take a peek at how middle prep works for LCUs. Seems like average HQ bonus linearly increases with it.
And b) made sure that non-prepping HQ bonus is not because of just its support squads




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by GetAssista -- 6/24/2017 1:39:51 PM >


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(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 38
RE: GA statistical musings - 2/6/2018 10:11:06 AM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse
GetAssista,

I just returned to the forum after a multi-year hiatus. I'm scanning the forums to glean whatever knowledge I can that I missed while I was away. This is great analysis.

Did you do any separate analysis on the effects of prep and HQs in non-base hexes, and/or on defending units?

Thanks!
I did not make a separate testing for non-bases. I assume HQ presense bonus will still be there (50% -> 70% adjusted AV), but not any of the prep bonus.
Also I assume defenders have it exactly the same as attackers with respect to HQ bonuses at least. Other bonuses to AV are very different for defenders compared to attackers so it might be worth testing some time in future.

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Post #: 39
RE: GA statistical musings - 2/18/2018 12:36:49 PM   
Blackhorse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista


Thanks!
I did not make a separate testing for non-bases. I assume HQ presense bonus will still be there (50% -> 70% adjusted AV), but not any of the prep bonus.
Also I assume defenders have it exactly the same as attackers with respect to HQ bonuses at least. Other bonuses to AV are very different for defenders compared to attackers so it might be worth testing some time in future.


Bolded above for emphasis. I suspect that HQ benefits are different at non-base hexes, and that Defender AV bonuses differ from Attacker AV bonuses. Should you find the time to test those hypotheses, many of us would be keenly interested in what you find.

Regardless of whether you do, or not, here's a salute for the work and analysis you've already put in.




_____________________________

WitP-AE -- US LCU & AI Stuff

Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
Moriarty: Crap!

(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 40
RE: GA statistical musings - 2/21/2018 6:43:05 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

Also I assume defenders have it exactly the same as attackers with respect to HQ bonuses at least.


WRT preparation points, I would say yes.

_____________________________

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Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

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RE: GA statistical musings - 11/27/2018 6:59:21 PM   
Yaab


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Interesting.

Why did you do your LCU/HQs tests with LCUs having adequate or surplus support squads? In the game, almost all LCU exist and fight with inadequate support in their TOE (the proportion of non-support devices to support devices is roughly 100:70). Can you do a test with LCUs at 70% support and 0 prep, and accompanying HQ with 0 prep, with enough support to put the LCU in GREEN-support category?

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RE: GA statistical musings - 11/27/2018 11:54:27 PM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab
Interesting.

Why did you do your LCU/HQs tests with LCUs having adequate or surplus support squads? In the game, almost all LCU exist and fight with inadequate support in their TOE (the proportion of non-support devices to support devices is roughly 100:70). Can you do a test with LCUs at 70% support and 0 prep, and accompanying HQ with 0 prep, with enough support to put the LCU in GREEN-support category?

Well, potential combinations of factors are nigh infinite, so one needs some limiting assumptions.
I run all combat tests under the assumption that support does not matter for combat. Earlier I observed that LCU with zero support had the same adjusted AV on average as a fully supported LCU.

What I'm planning to do is what I mentioned in the thread - augmenting my recovery speed tests to look for the support (white/green) thresholds effects on the recovery from disablements.

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Post #: 43
RE: GA statistical musings - 11/28/2018 4:54:40 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

augmenting my recovery speed tests to look for the support (white/green) thresholds effects on the recovery from disablements.


Guys, I think you are chasing your 'tails' again. All the white/green really mean is that the white unit has enough inherent support and the green is getting some from an HQ because it is deficient in support devices. Any base with surplus support will help any unit in the base recover its disabled devices.

Again we search for definitive numbers in an abstracted element. There are a number of factors that effect this, and I'm sure many more that GG has in there as well. Trying to get absolute results is an exercise in futility IMHO. To each their own though, I guess.

< Message edited by rustysi -- 11/28/2018 4:55:05 PM >


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

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RE: GA statistical musings - 11/28/2018 5:09:08 PM   
Lokasenna


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He is testing to see if extra support is even more beneficial.

For the purposes of AV and combat, I don't think there was ever any question that having more than enough support does nothing. It is in unit recoveries that we have hints that having more than enough support in the hex (i.e., "green" even though that is a unit-level measurement instead of hex-level) is better than having just enough.

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RE: GA statistical musings - 11/28/2018 5:09:11 PM   
Yaab


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Well, as the Allies I don't pay much attention to undisabling. My units in CONUSA, Australia or India undisable nicely. However, the Chinese in the game are so wretched that the whole process of undisabling warrants further scrutiny. Many Chinese units start half disabled. Couple that with their white-support quirk and they are in a sort of stasis of wretchedness. The manual is vague, the forum myths abound, the devs are dispersed to the four winds. My GREEN-supported Chinese units undisable at acceptable rate, though still slower than their CONUSA counteraparts.

The Allies cracked the Enigma code, we, the players, must crack the WITP:AE code.

< Message edited by Yaab -- 11/28/2018 5:16:19 PM >

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RE: GA statistical musings - 11/28/2018 6:30:29 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

It is in unit recoveries that we have hints that having more than enough support in the hex (i.e., "green" even though that is a unit-level measurement instead of hex-level) is better than having just enough.


Oh no, this is absolutely true. The more the merrier. Add to that, a large base, tons of supply, as far as you can be from the enemy, other surrounding bases, etc.

quote:

However, the Chinese in the game are so wretched that the whole process of undisabling warrants further scrutiny.


You only need to look at their situation and see why. They lack everything they need to do so effectively.

quote:

must crack the WITP:AE code.


Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

_____________________________

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In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

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RE: GA statistical musings - 11/28/2018 7:12:56 PM   
Lokasenna


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I don't think distance from the enemy, in itself, (aside from just not having any enemy in-hex) means anything for unit recovery. Why would it?

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RE: GA statistical musings - 11/29/2018 12:50:13 PM   
Macclan5


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Very nice analysis - and thank you.

Cracking the code is an interesting facet for the fans of this game and the contribution is appreciated

So the "laymans" analysis is ???

1a) Having Units supported with full TOE and supplies is best.

1) Having units prep'ed is better

2) Having HQ in hex is better

3) Having HQ in range is better but not as good as above

4) Having HQ prep'ed is better but not as good as above.




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RE: GA statistical musings - 11/29/2018 5:23:44 PM   
GetAssista

 

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So, I ran the tests aimed at determining whever distribution of support (between native to LCU and outside from HQs) helping LCU to recover matters for the speed of recovery.

A scenario without enemy activity wtasoever.
3 types of IDs resting in 3 identically built, supplied and climatized bases took part, each type in a particular base.
All of the IDs had 450 infantry squads disabled at start, custom commanders with 60 in each stat, replacements are turned off for everything.
Types of IDs had varying number of healthy support squads: 451, 449 and 1. Means type 1,2 will always have enough native support for healthy squads (i.e will always be WHITE), and type 3 will almost always have outside support only (will always be GREEN). Difference between 451 and 449 is there to check if ratio of support to total non-support squads matters. No other squads or devices in the IDs.
Each base further had a HQ with 200+ support squads tailored to have identical number of total support squads in each base, with custom commanders with 60 in each stat.

Result: there are no statistical differences in the speed of healing between different types of divisions.

Result 2: confirmation of previous research. A/B/C fragments heal even faster than whole divisions in absolute terms (that is # of squads healed). This means that total healing speed will be 3x+ faster if you divide the division into A/B/C for R&R.

< Message edited by GetAssista -- 11/29/2018 5:43:43 PM >

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RE: GA statistical musings - 11/29/2018 5:29:15 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

This means that total healing speed will be 3x+ faster if you divide the division into A/B/C for R&R.


Know this works for replacements, but was unsure/unaware in the recovery mode. Will have to use it.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to GetAssista)
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RE: GA statistical musings - 11/29/2018 6:36:36 PM   
Yaab


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

So, I ran the tests aimed at determining whever distribution of support (between native to LCU and outside from HQs) helping LCU to recover matters for the speed of recovery.

A scenario without enemy activity wtasoever.
3 types of IDs resting in 3 identically built, supplied and climatized bases took part, each type in a particular base.
All of the IDs had 450 infantry squads disabled at start, custom commanders with 60 in each stat, replacements are turned off for everything.
Types of IDs had varying number of healthy support squads: 451, 449 and 1. Means type 1,2 will always have enough native support for healthy squads (i.e will always be WHITE), and type 3 will almost always have outside support only (will always be GREEN). Difference between 451 and 449 is there to check if ratio of support to total non-support squads matters. No other squads or devices in the IDs.
Each base further had a HQ with 200+ support squads tailored to have identical number of total support squads in each base, with custom commanders with 60 in each stat.

Result: there are no statistical differences in the speed of healing between different types of divisions.

Result 2: confirmation of previous research. A/B/C fragments heal even faster than whole divisions in absolute terms (that is # of squads healed). This means that total healing speed will be 3x+ faster if you divide the division into A/B/C for R&R.


Thanks for testing.

I am baffled. My WHITE 74th Chinese Corps in scen 100 is frozen into some kind of a disablement stasis. Exp 35/morale 35, undisables 1-3 squads each turn max. The 10th Chinese Corps in the same city is GREEN, and undisables 6-8 devices per turn. Dividing into ABC of course works in general, however I find it tedious to browse through divided units icons in big bases like Chungking or Tacoma, so I try to keep all div/corps LCUs undivided.

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RE: GA statistical musings - 12/10/2018 7:01:05 PM   
Yaab


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
@GA - did the units have enough Support devices without the presence of the HQs in the hex? That is the one indirect thing that an HQ in the hex could do outside of what you appear to have just tested. If they didn't have enough Support without the HQ units, I'm hesitant to chalk this difference up to the presence of HQs alone.

I've done some tests earlier on that urban legend that support helps in adjusted AV. Had a tank regiment attack completely stripped of support. Adjusted AV was roughly equal to base AV even without any support squads in the hex.

Also:
quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista
TOE of ID had 450 infantry squads and 450 support



GetAssista, do you still have the data from this test? How was the enemy AV in them? If support devices are any good in combat, then the fully supported tank regiment should disable more enemy devices in the firing phase of the attack, thus lowering enemy's AV on average in assault phase. If enemy AV was comparabale when facing both kinds of tank regiment, then maybe your analysis your right, and the support squads only help in undisabling devices.

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RE: GA statistical musings - 12/10/2018 7:31:30 PM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab
GetAssista, do you still have the data from this test? How was the enemy AV in them? If support devices are any good in combat, then the fully supported tank regiment should disable more enemy devices in the firing phase of the attack, thus lowering enemy's AV on average in assault phase. If enemy AV was comparabale when facing both kinds of tank regiment, then maybe your analysis your right, and the support squads only help in undisabling devices.

Did not check enemy AV at that time. I don't really think support is affecting the enemy in any way when attacking. My running hypothesis so far is that support is used in R&R + provides some default defensive AV like any other non-combat squad and that's it. Might do some tests in the future

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RE: GA statistical musings - 12/10/2018 9:10:48 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab


I am baffled. My WHITE 74th Chinese Corps in scen 100 is frozen into some kind of a disablement stasis. Exp 35/morale 35, undisables 1-3 squads each turn max. The 10th Chinese Corps in the same city is GREEN, and undisables 6-8 devices per turn. Dividing into ABC of course works in general, however I find it tedious to browse through divided units icons in big bases like Chungking or Tacoma, so I try to keep all div/corps LCUs undivided.


The game engine does replacements/support operations on units in index number order. If you 74th Corps has a much higher index number than other Chinese units present, the latter would get support points and replacement devices first (assuming all have "replacements allowed". There is also some influence from the Admin. Skill of the unit leaders, but I am not clear on just how much it affects things. I don't know if the Corps/Area HQ assignment alignment has a big bearing either, but I believe it helps somewhat with Admin. tasks.

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Post #: 55
RE: GA statistical musings - 12/10/2018 9:30:57 PM   
Zorch

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab


I am baffled. My WHITE 74th Chinese Corps in scen 100 is frozen into some kind of a disablement stasis. Exp 35/morale 35, undisables 1-3 squads each turn max. The 10th Chinese Corps in the same city is GREEN, and undisables 6-8 devices per turn. Dividing into ABC of course works in general, however I find it tedious to browse through divided units icons in big bases like Chungking or Tacoma, so I try to keep all div/corps LCUs undivided.


The game engine does replacements/support operations on units in index number order. If you 74th Corps has a much higher index number than other Chinese units present, the latter would get support points and replacement devices first (assuming all have "replacements allowed". There is also some influence from the Admin. Skill of the unit leaders, but I am not clear on just how much it affects things. I don't know if the Corps/Area HQ assignment alignment has a big bearing either, but I believe it helps somewhat with Admin. tasks.

I hate this kind of 'feature'.
Either the player should be allowed to specify priority, or there should be a rational basis (like admin ability) for ordering. Even if that rational basis is semi-random.
Ditto for TF execution order...

(in reply to BBfanboy)
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RE: GA statistical musings - 12/11/2018 6:24:41 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab


I am baffled. My WHITE 74th Chinese Corps in scen 100 is frozen into some kind of a disablement stasis. Exp 35/morale 35, undisables 1-3 squads each turn max. The 10th Chinese Corps in the same city is GREEN, and undisables 6-8 devices per turn. Dividing into ABC of course works in general, however I find it tedious to browse through divided units icons in big bases like Chungking or Tacoma, so I try to keep all div/corps LCUs undivided.


The game engine does replacements/support operations on units in index number order. If you 74th Corps has a much higher index number than other Chinese units present, the latter would get support points and replacement devices first (assuming all have "replacements allowed". There is also some influence from the Admin. Skill of the unit leaders, but I am not clear on just how much it affects things. I don't know if the Corps/Area HQ assignment alignment has a big bearing either, but I believe it helps somewhat with Admin. tasks.

I hate this kind of 'feature'.
Either the player should be allowed to specify priority, or there should be a rational basis (like admin ability) for ordering. Even if that rational basis is semi-random.
Ditto for TF execution order...


Your control requires you to shut off replacements for other units, but I am not sure if the allocation of support to reduction of disablements is affected by this.
I put this in the same category with the fact that you cannot decide the priority for repairs to your base's forts, port, airfield services or runways. There are times when you have no intention of bringing in aircraft yet but you still get the runways and airfield services fixed first ...

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RE: GA statistical musings - 12/11/2018 3:24:51 PM   
Lokasenna


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But if you have plenty of devices in the pools (or more than enough support), it wouldn't matter what order the units received them - it would just be up to the individual units' rolls.

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RE: GA statistical musings - 12/11/2018 4:06:29 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

But if you have plenty of devices in the pools (or more than enough support), it wouldn't matter what order the units received them - it would just be up to the individual units' rolls.

True, but there seem to be some units that just won't fill out at any kind of acceptable rate. I had that problem with 6th Marines - oodles of devices in the pools, oodles of supply, great leader with high admin skills, unit in rest mode, WCUSA HQ in range. I got maybe one marine inf. squad and one support squad per turn. I even moved it to San Francisco where other units were filling out quickly - no change. The clincher was that other Marine regiments that arrived after the 6th filled out and went on their way while the 6th just would not take replacements at any kind of decent rate.

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 59
RE: GA statistical musings - 12/11/2018 6:52:29 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 8719
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
I'd have rebuilt it into the Division and then split into 3rd ;)

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 60
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