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Operation Weserübung - The Invasion of Norway

 
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Operation Weserübung - The Invasion of Norway - 12/8/2016 7:56:36 PM   
Boonierat1972


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From: France
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One thing I'm missing from SC2 was having to conduct the Invasion of Norway yourself instead of having it resolved via a decision in SC3. It was a tricky one to pull off and involved a bit of planning and coordination. I wonder why the devs chose to make do without it?

On the plus side I like having the opportunity now of sending British and French SFs to recapture Narvik.
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RE: Operation Weserübung - The Invasion of Norway - 12/8/2016 9:02:27 PM   
Hartmann

 

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I like that it was turned into a decision for two reasons:

1) The AI was never able to do Weserübung (not only in SC, but also every other comparable game I know). Here, the AI can do it too (because it is a decision) and I like to fight against an Axis which achieves something close to what was achieved in real history.
2) I did my share of Weserübungs in lots of games and it was always more tedious than really worth it. But I did it anyway for "completionist" reasons. I like that I now can concentrate on other stuff and still do it.

< Message edited by Hartmann -- 12/8/2016 9:03:27 PM >

(in reply to Boonierat1972)
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RE: Operation Weserübung - The Invasion of Norway - 12/8/2016 9:05:43 PM   
Goodmongo

 

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I love the event instead of having to do it. As mentioned it was fine for me but the AI seldom got it right. I can't recall any war game where an AI Germany didn't mess it up. Let's face reality here. Even now AI Germany has a hard time defeating AI Poland before November 1939.

(in reply to Hartmann)
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RE: Operation Weserübung - The Invasion of Norway - 12/8/2016 11:19:07 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9443
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
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quote:

One thing I'm missing from SC2 was having to conduct the Invasion of Norway yourself

Hey Stephane !
Don't pick that DE and you can do it yourself. I have done it myself a couple times.

(in reply to Boonierat1972)
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RE: Operation Weserübung - The Invasion of Norway - 12/8/2016 11:52:27 PM   
ILCK

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Boonierat1972

One thing I'm missing from SC2 was having to conduct the Invasion of Norway yourself instead of having it resolved via a decision in SC3. It was a tricky one to pull off and involved a bit of planning and coordination. I wonder why the devs chose to make do without it?

On the plus side I like having the opportunity now of sending British and French SFs to recapture Narvik.



The Germans cannot defend Norway (that one SF can pretty much retake the whole country) at all let alone be able to attack it.

(in reply to Boonierat1972)
Post #: 5
RE: Operation Weserübung - The Invasion of Norway - 12/9/2016 3:53:46 AM   
n0kn0k

 

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In Multiplayer it would be way too easy for the Royal navy to stop the invasion, KNOWING that it would be coming. That's the main reason. If you want you could disable the script in singleplayer games.

(in reply to ILCK)
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RE: Operation Weserübung - The Invasion of Norway - 12/9/2016 6:23:46 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 45032
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hartmann

I like that it was turned into a decision for two reasons:

1) The AI was never able to do Weserübung (not only in SC, but also every other comparable game I know). Here, the AI can do it too (because it is a decision) and I like to fight against an Axis which achieves something close to what was achieved in real history.
2) I did my share of Weserübungs in lots of games and it was always more tedious than really worth it. But I did it anyway for "completionist" reasons. I like that I now can concentrate on other stuff and still do it.

warspite1

Weserubung is a real problem for strategic game makers because:

- You typically have corps and army counters in use in such a game – Weserubung used much smaller units for the invasion
- Weserubung was a bold operation but relied heavily on surprise and luck. There were occasions when at least a couple of Marinegruppe could have been destroyed by the RN, but weather and Admiralty interference conspired against the British/Norwegians. With hindsight there is almost nil chance of surprise and that means the luck required is off the chart
- Moreover even than the operational problem is the question, why would Germany even want to do a Weserubung?
- The rewards are negligible in terms of resources and improving the strategic position (the fall of France gives the U-boats what they need in terms of bases)
- In making an enemy of the Norwegians, the Norwegian merchant marine – including all those luvverrllyy tankers, went to the British.

It’s a shame because Weserubung (and the lesser known British/French designs on Norway) were an important part of the early war period, but I think, without creating special rules just to fit that scenario, it’s just too much of a ball-ache to try and war game properly.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 12/9/2016 6:24:44 AM >


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(in reply to Hartmann)
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RE: Operation Weserübung - The Invasion of Norway - 12/9/2016 9:25:58 AM   
The Land

 

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Warspite1's hit the nail on the head really - it's an un-simulatable event in this scale of game, and the historical outcome depended on stupidity no wargamer would ever commit with the benefit of hindsight.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 8
RE: Operation Weserübung - The Invasion of Norway - 12/9/2016 9:27:56 AM   
Hartmann

 

Posts: 888
Joined: 11/28/2000
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hartmann

I like that it was turned into a decision for two reasons:

1) The AI was never able to do Weserübung (not only in SC, but also every other comparable game I know). Here, the AI can do it too (because it is a decision) and I like to fight against an Axis which achieves something close to what was achieved in real history.
2) I did my share of Weserübungs in lots of games and it was always more tedious than really worth it. But I did it anyway for "completionist" reasons. I like that I now can concentrate on other stuff and still do it.

warspite1

Weserubung is a real problem for strategic game makers because:

- You typically have corps and army counters in use in such a game – Weserubung used much smaller units for the invasion
- Weserubung was a bold operation but relied heavily on surprise and luck. There were occasions when at least a couple of Marinegruppe could have been destroyed by the RN, but weather and Admiralty interference conspired against the British/Norwegians. With hindsight there is almost nil chance of surprise and that means the luck required is off the chart
- Moreover even than the operational problem is the question, why would Germany even want to do a Weserubung?
- The rewards are negligible in terms of resources and improving the strategic position (the fall of France gives the U-boats what they need in terms of bases)
- In making an enemy of the Norwegians, the Norwegian merchant marine – including all those luvverrllyy tankers, went to the British.

It’s a shame because Weserubung (and the lesser known British/French designs on Norway) were an important part of the early war period, but I think, without creating special rules just to fit that scenario, it’s just too much of a ball-ache to try and war game properly.



I fully agree on all counts.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 9
RE: Operation Weserübung - The Invasion of Norway - 12/9/2016 9:32:40 AM   
Hartmann

 

Posts: 888
Joined: 11/28/2000
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quote:

ORIGINAL: The Land

Warspite1's hit the nail on the head really - it's an un-simulatable event in this scale of game, and the historical outcome depended on stupidity no wargamer would ever commit with the benefit of hindsight.


But that's exactly why it was a good design choice to just integrate it as an event/decision. Otherwise, (almost) no human player would do it, while the AI would fail on it. But on the other hand it would be felt as a letdown to have a WW2 European Theater game where certain historical events would simply never occur.

(in reply to The Land)
Post #: 10
RE: Operation Weserübung - The Invasion of Norway - 12/9/2016 7:30:04 PM   
xwormwood


Posts: 1149
Joined: 8/28/2000
From: Bremen, Germany
Status: offline
In SC2 the Axis had no real problem to do Weserübung. Because they won once they had Oslo.

I would have prefered to get this DE only easy or standard difficulty mode, but not on expert.

And I think I might have added some reasons NOT to invade Norway (like "if Norway enters the Axis side the Axis player will benefit from the Norwegian merchant marine, adding xxx MPS to the Axis Warchest.
And some follow-up DEs for both sides.

_____________________________

"You will be dead, so long as you refuse to die" (George MacDonald)

(in reply to Hartmann)
Post #: 11
RE: Operation Weserübung - The Invasion of Norway - 12/10/2016 4:22:19 PM   
BillRunacre

 

Posts: 4766
Joined: 7/22/2013
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Hi

The Decision is voluntary, so if you want to invade manually then prepare an invasion force ready for when you want to invade, whether that be before or after the Fall of France, say no to the Decision when it fires, and launch yours when the time is right.

Bill

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(in reply to xwormwood)
Post #: 12
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