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RE: OT where have all the good games gone? - 11/29/2016 6:48:16 AM   
oaltinyay


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From: Now Boote's Void
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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

This morning my old blurry eyes read the title of this thread as "Where have all the good planes gone?". I guess we could start a thread for that.


I have inspired myself. Instead of starting a new thread, I can merge the issues. To paraphrase Peter, Paul and Mary ...
Let me clear my throat, ahem. Ahem.

Where have all the good planes gone?
long time passing
Where have all the good planes gone?
Old buffs have picked them one by one.
Oh when will they never yearn?
When will they never yearn?
.
Where have all the old buffs gone?
long time passing
Where have all the old buffs gone?
Gone for reverse mortgages every one.
Oh when will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?
.
Where have all their children gone?
long time passing
Where have all their children gone?
Gone for all the good wargames.
Oh when will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?
.
Where did all the good games go
with paper maps and cardboard chits?
Oh where did all the good games go?
Gone for digital media every one.
Oh when will we ever learn?
When will we ever learn?
.
Oh where did Windows XP go?
long time passing
Oh where did Windows Vista go?
short time passing
Oh when will we ever learn?
When will we ever learn?






How do u come up with this stuff Mr. Reptile ? It's just so good I kept singing it in the office and they look at me as if I finally came apart mentally.

_____________________________

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Post #: 91
RE: OT where have all the good games gone? - 11/29/2016 6:49:31 AM   
oaltinyay


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Crazy idea : can we crowdsource our own extension into WITP ? I'm sure Matrix will consider a business proposal.

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Post #: 92
RE: OT where have all the good games gone? - 11/29/2016 7:40:14 AM   
wdolson

 

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The problem with getting anymore extensions to WitP done is not the money. it's getting the right people to do the job.

Bill

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Post #: 93
RE: OT where have all the good games gone? - 11/29/2016 5:14:03 PM   
oaltinyay


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So how can we prevent WITP becoming obsolete ? I can see myself playing this 5 10 and 15 years from now if I life that long. I mean one pbem takes 3 years anway.

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Post #: 94
RE: OT where have all the good games gone? - 11/30/2016 2:58:40 AM   
wdolson

 

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It's only obsolete today if people believe it is. The only issue I see that is really an obsolescence issue is operability with newer operating systems and that is beginning to become more and more of an issue. With some effort that may be fixable though.

A lot of kids are going to turn up their noses at any game like WitP because it's not real time and doesn't have a lot of flashy graphics, but trying to weave in features that would draw in many younger gamers would break the game. This has to remain a turn based game in some fashion to remain what it is.

Bill

_____________________________

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Post #: 95
RE: OT where have all the good games gone? - 11/30/2016 3:42:43 AM   
Canoerebel


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I face the same dilemma with the magazine I publish. It's an old-fashioned history magazine. It's the same size, page count, and paper quality that it was in 1988. We haven't increased our subscription prices since 2004. (I think we are the last publication in America that can claim those things.)

But the world is turning to digital, electronic media, especially the younger generation. As it ages, will there still be a market for Georgia Backroads? I think so - I think there will always be a certain percentage of people that value quality, appreciate the "old ways," and just want to hold a print product in their hands. I don't need 25% of Georgians to subscribe to my magazine to make it viable. I actually need something around one-quarter of 1%. I think that'll always be there.

As for AE, it may eventually transcend it's niche market simply because it's a masterpiece - a classic. There is a chance that this game becomes a kind of Monopoly or Chess for those who love old-fashioned strategy games. That market doesn't have to be large. I wouldn't be surprised if AE continues to gradually grow. I also wouldn't be surprised if some day, somewhere, some whiz group who love WWII decide to roll up their sleeves and create something that will be the "next" AE, even if it isn't AE.

(in reply to wdolson)
Post #: 96
RE: OT where have all the good games gone? - 11/30/2016 3:46:30 AM   
Anachro


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Canoerebel. Just a personal anecdote.

I used to feel very strongly about the superiority of paperback or a physical copy. In some ways I do, but ever since I got a kindle, I've found myself drawn more and more to the convenience of having everything stored electronically with easy access. Moreover, the kindle has gotten better at making the text look (if not feel) more and more like an actual paperback.

That said, I'm not sure how good a periodical would be in e-format like a kindle. It obviously can work online on a website, but I have yet to try the subscription models available on a kindle. Only books. I feel this way probably because I think of a periodical like a magazine as more than just text: it's usually a multimedia experience using both images and text together (for most magazines, not necessarily scholarly journals). I'm not sure this translates well to something like the kindle.

< Message edited by Anachro -- 11/30/2016 3:55:15 AM >

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Post #: 97
RE: OT where have all the good games gone? - 11/30/2016 3:58:19 AM   
Canoerebel


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Most people feel the same as you do, Anachro. But there is a certain percentage - probably fairly high - that either love print books or detest electronic books or both.

The experience of businesses trying to morph print subscriptions into electronic subscriptions is abysmal. We're all familiar with the magazines and newspapers that have failed or teetered on the brink of failure. Most recently, the New York Times, USA Today, and other major newspapers have suffered crippling losses that have triggered more big cutbacks. And this is after years of concerted effort to wrap their heads around the problem and figure out a solution. They haven't, so the downfall will continue.

The problem is that those publications relied very heavily on advertising revenue. Advertisers have gone elsewhere.

That was where my publication got very lucky. In 2005, advertising revenue was about 1% of our revenue. Today it has "shrunk" to less than 1%. We simply rely upon subscriptions. Since we've been in business for 32 years, we have established a good will that allowed us to move through the recession and the "demise" of print publications relatively smoothly. Things aren't easy - they usually aren't for a small business - but at least we're able to do what we love doing.

Now, I apologize for hijacking the thread. Let's resume our digital entertainment!


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RE: OT where have all the good games gone? - 11/30/2016 5:12:36 AM   
warspite1


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Well before resuming the digital entertainment, I would like to chime in too in support of books. I am not completely 'old fart' - I long since succumbed in the music world and no longer buy physical CD's, but instead download all my music from itunes (even though I said I wouldn't).

But books? I will never move to kindle or whatever electronic device. As I sit here typing this I am surrounded by my library of books - probably 90% military history - and I love them! Small second hand paper backs to large, glossy, hardbacks, I love them all, I love the smell of them when new, I love their accessibility, I love the feel of them in my hands. I love their ability to teach as they enrich and expand my knowledge of subjects I love.

Funny how life changes. As a small boy, I hated reading - it was boring and frankly I'd rather be outside kicking a ball around or making airfix models - or frankly doing anything but boring reading. Now? Now I cannot read enough, there is not enough hours in the day to satisfy my thirst for history knowledge. Life, its a funny old game eh?

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/30/2016 5:14:49 AM >


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RE: OT where have all the good games gone? - 11/30/2016 5:26:43 AM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro

Canoerebel. Just a personal anecdote.

I used to feel very strongly about the superiority of paperback or a physical copy. In some ways I do, but ever since I got a kindle, I've found myself drawn more and more to the convenience of having everything stored electronically with easy access. Moreover, the kindle has gotten better at making the text look (if not feel) more and more like an actual paperback.

That said, I'm not sure how good a periodical would be in e-format like a kindle. It obviously can work online on a website, but I have yet to try the subscription models available on a kindle. Only books. I feel this way probably because I think of a periodical like a magazine as more than just text: it's usually a multimedia experience using both images and text together (for most magazines, not necessarily scholarly journals). I'm not sure this translates well to something like the kindle.


Ereaders are very poor platforms for periodicals as they cannot handle colour and the screen size is generally too small/awkward for PDF publications. Most periodicals which are made electronically available are not reformatted to EPUB standards. On the other hand, tablets can usually handle periodicals with ease. Thus one needs an ereader for ebooks and a tablet (colour capable) for magazine/subscription periodicals.

Alfred

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Post #: 100
RE: OT where have all the good games gone? - 11/30/2016 6:37:30 AM   
Roger Neilson 3


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From: Bedlington, Northumberland, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Well before resuming the digital entertainment, I would like to chime in too in support of books. I am not completely 'old fart' - I long since succumbed in the music world and no longer buy physical CD's, but instead download all my music from itunes (even though I said I wouldn't).

But books? I will never move to kindle or whatever electronic device. As I sit here typing this I am surrounded by my library of books - probably 90% military history - and I love them! Small second hand paper backs to large, glossy, hardbacks, I love them all, I love the smell of them when new, I love their accessibility, I love the feel of them in my hands. I love their ability to teach as they enrich and expand my knowledge of subjects I love.

Funny how life changes. As a small boy, I hated reading - it was boring and frankly I'd rather be outside kicking a ball around or making airfix models - or frankly doing anything but boring reading. Now? Now I cannot read enough, there is not enough hours in the day to satisfy my thirst for history knowledge. Life, its a funny old game eh?


I do think that factual books have a life still, though as Alfred says the tablet can work with them if they are formatted properly and if you don't want to access them outdoors. However there are practical considerations as follows:
1. Physical space - we downsized a couple of years ago and I have little space for any physical books
2. An e-reader is small and light to hold, an issue as you get older
3. It always remembers the page you were on - an issue when you get older
4. Accessibility of print size - an issue when you get older
5. I regularly take long holidays and read a lot - try calculating book weight when flying, or boot space when driving to somewhere....
6. Pretty much immediate access to purchase


There are a lot of advantages


Roger

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Post #: 101
RE: OT where have all the good games gone? - 11/30/2016 6:44:26 AM   
wdolson

 

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I have a monochrome Kindle and a Kindle Fire. The color is good for any publication viewed better in color as well as occasional portable web browsing. The monochrome is much better for conventional books.

I have a Kindle library building up, but I still read dead tree editions fairly often. Quite often it's cheaper to buy a physical book than an electronic one, especially lightly used ones. The last books I bought I found the hardcovers for the series I was looking for were $0.99 each (plus shipping) and the Kindle books were around $10. Physical books are easier to skim and jump around if so inclined and easier to loan to someone, but electronic books take up less space, can be searched with electronic search tools (a plus for reference books), and delivery is instantaneous. So I end up with some of each.

Bill

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WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

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Post #: 102
RE: OT where have all the good games gone? - 11/30/2016 11:13:10 AM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson 3

There are a lot of advantages

Roger


Kindle here too. I read in a dark bedroom while GOTP is asleep. And I can blow up the type size so one page is about ten lines. Tap,. tap, tap. I fly through paperbacks I had to stop reading because I couldn't see the words.

I've only bought two books for the thing. Our library system has many thousands of ebooks, and more all the time. Every library in Minnesota is linked into the ebook system, so I can inter-library borrow in many cases too. I've gotten a new book at 0200 before, in thirty seconds, without leaving bed. I only need to charge it about once a month.


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The Moose

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Post #: 103
RE: OT where have all the good games gone? - 11/30/2016 1:00:02 PM   
Lecivius


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I guess I'm Old School. I have over eight thousand books in my library last time I indexed them. I'm gonna hate it if I ever have to move them

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RE: OT where have all the good games gone? - 11/30/2016 1:19:59 PM   
Leandros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

I guess I'm Old School. I have over eight thousand books in my library last time I indexed them. I'm gonna hate it if I ever have to move them


I'd hate to be "moved" before my books are......

Fred

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RE: OT where have all the good games gone? - 11/30/2016 1:21:14 PM   
wdolson

 

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My family are all bookworms. I'm the slowest reader and probably have the smallest library, and my SO complains a lot about the books we have. My sister and I have been talking lately about how we're going to deal with my father's house when the time comes. It looks like my father may not get out of an assisted living place. He's in there now temporarily and while he still talks about going home, he's realizing life is a lot easier with somebody around to do some things for you. If he decides to stay, we'll be selling the house.

My parents deliberately built a lot of storage into the house so they could stash stuff. All the bedrooms have big walk in closets and at least one of them is so full of books you can't really move in there. My sister said she can donate them to the local library's book sale, but we're going to have to pack them all up after we've decided what we want to keep. My father has a large collection of WW II history books among other things.

I'll probably go down there in a few months to take a first cut at the mess. It's going to take a couple of weeks when we finally need to sell.

Whoever has to triage the piles is something few packrats consider. My SO had to do it with her adopted mother. With her it was clothes.

Bill

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RE: OT where have all the good games gone? - 11/30/2016 1:28:15 PM   
Canoerebel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius
I guess I'm Old School. I have over eight thousand books in my library last time I indexed them. I'm gonna hate it if I ever have to move them


We are old school, but there isn't any right and wrong here. The majority of society has switched over mostly or entirely to the electronic age (when's the last time you saw an 18-year-old with a newspaper in his hands?). A minority goes grudgingly or partially or not at all.

So the Moose enjoys the convenience of 2 a.m. downloads from his local library. Late at night, I enjoy reading a book in bed or in my recliner, becoming weary, laying the book on my chest, and falling asleep. I do that all the time. I wouldn't do that with an electronic gizmo.

For some, playing chess is a social event to be enjoy face-to-face with a friend or committed opponent, with a drinks on the table and cigars in hand. Others only play against AI deep in the night.

For the new generation, a monster thinking strategy game like AE will never be of interest; for a minority of us, it's the most exciting, thought-provoking and enjoyable pastime available.

The youngsters and techies are welcome to their devices as long as they don't tell me what to do or try to force me to do something.

But I'll close with this thought. Technology exacts a subtle toll that most are willing to pay, even if they only barely understand that they're paying it: The tyranny of instant and perpetual availability. Augh!


< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 11/30/2016 1:56:36 PM >

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Post #: 107
RE: OT where have all the good games gone? - 11/30/2016 4:20:14 PM   
oaltinyay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

It's only obsolete today if people believe it is. The only issue I see that is really an obsolescence issue is operability with newer operating systems and that is beginning to become more and more of an issue. With some effort that may be fixable though.

A lot of kids are going to turn up their noses at any game like WitP because it's not real time and doesn't have a lot of flashy graphics, but trying to weave in features that would draw in many younger gamers would break the game. This has to remain a turn based game in some fashion to remain what it is.

Bill



I'm not talking about flashy graphics really. Maybe more detailed and realistic encounter and conflict management routines etc. Optional tactical resolution for land warfare etc.

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Post #: 108
RE: OT where have all the good games gone? - 11/30/2016 4:30:10 PM   
Skyros


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I have evolved into mixed use between my Kindle and real books. The real risk is when the lights go out and you lose power it would be nice to have a book available to read by firelight and during the day. Just make sure you buy your survivor guides in hard copy.

Donating to a library is a good option because you get rid of the books quickly and get a nice tax write off. I tried selling my books and a lot of stores would only buy certain ones and I hated lugging the books back home. They also did not get what I thought they were worth. Plus my SO felt that if the store would not buy them they belong in the trash. What an awful thought.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 109
RE: OT where have all the good games gone? - 11/30/2016 5:00:01 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius
I guess I'm Old School. I have over eight thousand books in my library last time I indexed them. I'm gonna hate it if I ever have to move them


Late at night, I enjoy reading a book in bed or in my recliner, becoming weary, laying the book on my chest, and falling asleep. I do that all the time.

warspite1

That is better than my MO. Rather than sitting up, I like to go to bed and read my book there, lying down. The problem with that is that tiredness creeps up much faster now - and I am often woken by being smacked in the face with a hardback book.......


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Post #: 110
RE: OT where have all the good games gone? - 11/30/2016 5:16:06 PM   
Anachro


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I travel a lot so I find a kindle a great tool. No need to lug around 5-6 books in my backpack anymore! I also love the backlit screen for reading at night while laying in bed. For serious study and note-taking, however, a physical copy is best. Thinking about this as I head back to business school.

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Post #: 111
RE: OT where have all the good games gone? - 11/30/2016 7:47:41 PM   
Vader5


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I love my Kindle app and do most of my fiction reading on iPad or iPhone. However, I prefer a physical copy for non-fiction. I read a lot of history and it's hard to keep track of maps, charts, tables, etc. on Kindle. Much easier to follow on a hard copy.

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Post #: 112
RE: OT where have all the good games gone? - 11/30/2016 10:04:21 PM   
Roger Neilson 3


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I have to say the area I feel has most scope for development in a digital format is military history where you could actually have much moire dynamic battle maps. I despair of histories that grudgingly give you one map for a battle and I understand it in print format, but in digital it woulod be easy to develop a map which allowed you to move forward in time phases and see developments and deployments like no other way of illustrating this.

Roger

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RE: OT where have all the good games gone? - 11/30/2016 11:45:32 PM   
Big B

 

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While I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said below Bill, I was astounded to find a rather large exception recently.

Because of a renewed personal interest in Avalon Hill's/MMP's ASL, I went searching for some relevant forums and found it on Gamesquad.com
They very recently changed their Forum format (since September 2016), but prior to this - each game forum showed the number of it's members.
The surprise was seeing that ASL boasted some over 357,000 members world wide (in 2016)....unfortunately they don't show any figures now that I can find - but the point is, in ASL's case - they are garnering over 350,000 fans in 2016...which can only be indicative of a portion of ASL sales over the last 30 years...astoundingly good for such a niche market.

Still though, that pales in comparison to today's console games like Grand Theft Auto or Call of Duty (for example).

On the other hand, another sobering statistic I saw this year was watching 'Video Games: The Movie' on Netflix.
They pointed out that since humble beginnings with Atari's 2600 back in the 1970's, ....the Video Game Industry now dwarfs the annual sales of ALL Motion Pictures (ie..Hollywood), Professional Sports, and the entire Music Industry - COMBINED! (that blew my mind anyway).

So the reality that hardcore military sims like WitP:AE aren't huge numbers in the Industry isn't at all surprising...considering where that industry now lies.

B


quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson


Many years ago there was an editorial in the Avalon Hill magazine The General about the size of the wargame hobby. I believe the writer was one of the head people at AH and knew the industry well. He pointed out that a mega hit in the wargame industry like Advanced Squad Leader would sell around 10,000 copies over its entire lifetime. The popular games sold by Hasbro all sell more than 100,000 copies a year. Hasbro drops games that don't meet that threshold. When Hasbro later bought AH people were scratching their heads because AH was such small potatoes compared to everything else in their line up, but they were looking to the rights to some of AH's more popular multiplayer games like Diplomacy to turn them into online games. That never really happened, but that may have been their thinking.

The computer game industry is a bit different from the physical game industry, but the same scale of economics apply. Games like Grand Theft Auto sell millions of copies and the studios that create those games have lots of cash to invest in new games. Though they still do all they can to recycle the old game engines because creating a game engine from scratch is not easy and once you get something right, you milk it for all you can. Games that can be played on multiple platforms are also desirable in the industry. Games limited to one platform are limiting their market from the start.

In the gaming business real time games sell better than games that take time to play. Those who don't play real time games, tend to be on game systems like iWin or play Facebook games that have fairly simple game engines compared to what it takes to run the sort of wargame Matrix releases. The sort of people who have the patience for a slowly unfolding game like AE are few and far between. And of those people, there is some percentage who wouldn't be interested in the subject, and another percentage who never heard of Matrix.

I can't go into details, but having seen the extent of the guts of AE, it would be a pretty daunting task for anyone to build an all new engine that did the same thing better. For a lifetime sales of 10,000 if you're lucky, the payoff is not worth it to most developers. Playing in the mainstream game arena where a big hit can bring in millions vs a niche game that might make $100K-$200K over its lifetime of the entire engine, only those who are doing it for the love of the game are going to bother.

AE was developed by a handful of people who were fans of the game. If we did it for the money we'd all be living in cardboard boxes now.

Bill




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Post #: 114
RE: OT where have all the good games gone? - 12/1/2016 12:58:01 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10373
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

While I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said below Bill, I was astounded to find a rather large exception recently.

Because of a renewed personal interest in Avalon Hill's/MMP's ASL, I went searching for some relevant forums and found it on Gamesquad.com
They very recently changed their Forum format (since September 2016), but prior to this - each game forum showed the number of it's members.
The surprise was seeing that ASL boasted some over 357,000 members world wide (in 2016)....unfortunately they don't show any figures now that I can find - but the point is, in ASL's case - they are garnering over 350,000 fans in 2016...which can only be indicative of a portion of ASL sales over the last 30 years...astoundingly good for such a niche market.

Still though, that pales in comparison to today's console games like Grand Theft Auto or Call of Duty (for example).

On the other hand, another sobering statistic I saw this year was watching 'Video Games: The Movie' on Netflix.
They pointed out that since humble beginnings with Atari's 2600 back in the 1970's, ....the Video Game Industry now dwarfs the annual sales of ALL Motion Pictures (ie..Hollywood), Professional Sports, and the entire Music Industry - COMBINED! (that blew my mind anyway).

So the reality that hardcore military sims like WitP:AE aren't huge numbers in the Industry isn't at all surprising...considering where that industry now lies.

B



If I remember right the article also said ASL was an unusual phenomenon in the industry. It was the mega hit that sold more than any other game out there. However, sales were still too small for Hasbro who licensed the rights to MMD soon after buying AH.

I didn't know video games were such a large market, but I'm not that surprised when I think about it. People prefer interacting with stories rather than just passively watching them.

Bill


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(in reply to Big B)
Post #: 115
RE: OT where have all the good games gone? - 12/1/2016 3:16:17 AM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8667
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline
Hasbro canceled production of ASL and all of Avalon Hill's true wargames. There was a major internet community for ASL and one of the members of that community, Curt Schilling of MLB fame, put together a group MMP (MultiManPublishing) to buy the rights from Hasbro and resurrect ASL. Apparently they have since bought the rights to the Great Campaigns of the American Civil War series as well as some other wargames from around the world.

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fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to wdolson)
Post #: 116
RE: OT where have all the good games gone? - 12/14/2016 12:11:57 PM   
Olorin


Posts: 997
Joined: 4/22/2008
From: Greece
Status: offline
Bumping this thread, because I don't want to create a new one for my question.

I just came across Order of Battle:WWII and more specifically OOB: Pacific.
How does this game compare to WitP:AE? I'd be interested to hear opinions of forum members that have played the game.

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(in reply to bradfordkay)
Post #: 117
RE: OT where have all the good games gone? - 12/14/2016 1:16:03 PM   
Roger Neilson 3


Posts: 1091
Joined: 4/12/2012
From: Bedlington, Northumberland, UK
Status: offline
I had it filed on my hard drive under R for Rubbish, have since deleted it. Very simple and not at all to my taste.

Roger

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An unplanned dynasty: Roger Neilson, Roger Neilson 11, previous posts 898+1515.

(in reply to Olorin)
Post #: 118
RE: OT where have all the good games gone? - 12/14/2016 3:23:55 PM   
Lovejoy


Posts: 210
Joined: 12/16/2015
Status: offline
For those who are nautically inclined, there are two great games sold by NWS. Steam and Iron: the Great War at Sea (recommend campaign expansion) and Rule the Waves. Their more tactical than strategic, but quite satisfying.

(in reply to Roger Neilson 3)
Post #: 119
RE: OT where have all the good games gone? - 12/14/2016 4:17:01 PM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8667
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline
The Great War At Sea is a fairly enjoyable operational level depiction of WWI era (and thereabouts) naval warfare in a boardgame. Have they made a computer version of it?

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fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to Lovejoy)
Post #: 120
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