Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Unit Formation Size?

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Strategic Command Series >> Strategic Command WWII War in Europe >> Unit Formation Size? Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Unit Formation Size? - 11/16/2016 7:13:09 PM   
kirk23


Posts: 2834
Joined: 10/15/2010
From: Fife Scotland
Status: offline
I have been playing these games long enough now to realize,many areas of the game play is abstracted.But I was hoping that by this time the games third incarnation, that the unit formation sizes would be standardized,but nope they are still a mixed bunch for example.


Main Infantry units come in these sizes.

Garrison.
Brigade.
Division.
Corps.
Army.

Calvary units come in these sizes.

Brigade.
Division.
Corps.

Now for one of the games main unit types the Tank.

Tank units come in these sizes.

Light Tank.
Tank. ( I assume this to mean its a Medium Tank)
Heavy Tank.

Come on this is a joke eh?Tanks should come as per Infantry and Calvary Brigade,Division & Corps.

Light tank & Heavy tank tell a player very little apart from ones light in weight and the other is heavy?


Example:The organisational structure of British armoured divisions in 1940.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by kirk23 -- 11/16/2016 7:25:47 PM >


_____________________________

Make it so!
Post #: 1
RE: Unit Formation Size? - 11/17/2016 1:37:16 AM   
James Taylor

 

Posts: 456
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Corpus Christi, Texas
Status: offline
Always wanted to create my own TOEs, like TOAW.

< Message edited by James Taylor -- 11/17/2016 1:38:25 AM >


_____________________________

SeaMonkey

(in reply to kirk23)
Post #: 2
RE: Unit Formation Size? - 11/17/2016 7:57:16 AM   
Hexagon


Posts: 1114
Joined: 6/14/2009
Status: offline
To be fair to be a new game and mantein the same problems from old titles... you cant stack air units or HQ units with land units... units are not like War in the East or TAOW made of subunits, something that help AT units could integrate in armies to made them more usable and even create mixed formations, imagine mix an armored infantry corps with a panzer unit and have a Panzer corps with better soft values, more usable in urban terrain for example.

I dont say is a bad game but could be improved more.

(in reply to James Taylor)
Post #: 3
RE: Unit Formation Size? - 11/17/2016 8:25:15 AM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 2621
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline
There are aspects of this game which are too abstracted, but in the end it's all in the name, which is 'strategic'.

However, abstraction can go so far as to make combined arms strategies impossible and the whole effect unrealistic.

It would be too much, on this scale, to be representing brigades, or even divisions in large numbers like WitE, WitW, but to be able to split units, as is available in other older games (TOF, TOAW), would be a big advantage and provide some much needed flexibility.

< Message edited by Rasputitsa -- 11/17/2016 8:31:17 AM >


_____________________________

"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon

“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon

“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon

(in reply to Hexagon)
Post #: 4
RE: Unit Formation Size? - 11/17/2016 10:18:54 AM   
Hexagon


Posts: 1114
Joined: 6/14/2009
Status: offline
Even when is a strategic game some game decisions kill this, need one hex for air units with no land units staking in same hex is for me a big for example.

The type of units is a big mix of divisional (or smaller formations) with corps and armies... i can understand it to represent things like an assault over Malta or use of paratroopers in enemy rear but customize more bigger units is a must have, for example instead the actual unit system have base formations (that could be infantry-tank-cavalry) and you can add to them subunits that increase the unit stats in diferent ways, for example pick a cavalry corps add to them a tank unit (brigade-division) and an AAA unit... imagine the actual units with 2 slots where you can use subunits to made them more custom you can start with an infantry unit + mech formations + elite infantry unit to create a fast and powerfull infantry formation VS soft targets.

The game is now as it is but i feel that works better in a WWI enviroment than in a WWII enviroment where there are a lot more type of units that made bigger formations more unique.

(in reply to Rasputitsa)
Post #: 5
RE: Unit Formation Size? - 11/17/2016 1:17:44 PM   
RodyMetal


Posts: 153
Joined: 3/6/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexagon

Even when is a strategic game some game decisions kill this, need one hex for air units with no land units staking in same hex is for me a big for example.

The type of units is a big mix of divisional (or smaller formations) with corps and armies... i can understand it to represent things like an assault over Malta or use of paratroopers in enemy rear but customize more bigger units is a must have, for example instead the actual unit system have base formations (that could be infantry-tank-cavalry) and you can add to them subunits that increase the unit stats in diferent ways, for example pick a cavalry corps add to them a tank unit (brigade-division) and an AAA unit... imagine the actual units with 2 slots where you can use subunits to made them more custom you can start with an infantry unit + mech formations + elite infantry unit to create a fast and powerfull infantry formation VS soft targets.

The game is now as it is but i feel that works better in a WWI enviroment than in a WWII enviroment where there are a lot more type of units that made bigger formations more unique.


That reminds of HOI division designer, but you are right it needed more in such strategic level wargame.

_____________________________

Add me, Steam name: RAIED
Steam Profile:
RAIED

(in reply to Hexagon)
Post #: 6
RE: Unit Formation Size? - 11/17/2016 2:27:07 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

Posts: 3241
Joined: 7/22/2013
Status: offline
quote:

Tank units come in these sizes.

Light Tank.
Tank. ( I assume this to mean its a Medium Tank)
Heavy Tank.

Come on this is a joke eh?Tanks should come as per Infantry and Calvary Brigade,Division & Corps.

Light tank & Heavy tank tell a player very little apart from ones light in weight and the other is heavy?


The primary reason for this is that there is a statistical difference between the 3 three main tank types and because you can invest in research and development to improve these types.

You certainly could have different sizes, but the emphasis here was the idea that the in game effects of facing off against let's say Panzer I and IIs at the start of the war versus a Tiger or a Panther later in the war should play a larger role. Having Research and Development tie into this more clearly in game was also a deciding factor.

In past releases we simply had the Tank type that through R&D could advance from let's say a Panzer I to a King Tiger, but in this release we also wanted to have a few additional locked in types such as the Light and later Heavy Tank types.

Light Tanks play a role in early Barbarossa for the Soviets, and the later Heavies (once they are available for production) come into play nicely on the Eastern Front (initially) and then elsewhere as the war progresses.

The general Tank type still represents a Tank type that through R&D can improve over time, and this way early Tank formations can improve as the war progresses, while the other locked in types are more specific (from their stats) but that can also improve through R&D.

Granted there can always be disagreement with any design choice, but after quite a bit of implementation and testing, and considering the scale, we feel that the current model works and plays quite well in game.

Hope this helps,
Hubert

(in reply to kirk23)
Post #: 7
RE: Unit Formation Size? - 11/17/2016 2:36:47 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

Posts: 3241
Joined: 7/22/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexagon

To be fair to be a new game and mantein the same problems from old titles... you cant stack air units or HQ units with land units...


Hi Hexagon,

I would say that at this point this was still more of a design decision on our end more than anything else and only because of the current size of the map, unit density and the added clarity of not having to deal with stacking and even limited stacking as outlined above.

Don't get me wrong, we certainly do understand the points here, but at the same time I'd suggest giving the current game a good play through to see if you might still feel the same way.

I also suggest this as even during Beta those that were strongly for it, actually altered their opinion and more or less considered it a non issue in the new game.

That being said, it is still on our radar for something to consider for smaller custom maps with higher unit densities as it is definitely more applicable there.

Hubert

(in reply to Hexagon)
Post #: 8
RE: Unit Formation Size? - 11/17/2016 3:09:25 PM   
kirk23


Posts: 2834
Joined: 10/15/2010
From: Fife Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

quote:

Tank units come in these sizes.

Light Tank.
Tank. ( I assume this to mean its a Medium Tank)
Heavy Tank.

Come on this is a joke eh?Tanks should come as per Infantry and Calvary Brigade,Division & Corps.

Light tank & Heavy tank tell a player very little apart from ones light in weight and the other is heavy?


The primary reason for this is that there is a statistical difference between the 3 three main tank types and because you can invest in research and development to improve these types.

You certainly could have different sizes, but the emphasis here was the idea that the in game effects of facing off against let's say Panzer I and IIs at the start of the war versus a Tiger or a Panther later in the war should play a larger role. Having Research and Development tie into this more clearly in game was also a deciding factor.

In past releases we simply had the Tank type that through R&D could advance from let's say a Panzer I to a King Tiger, but in this release we also wanted to have a few additional locked in types such as the Light and later Heavy Tank types.

Light Tanks play a role in early Barbarossa for the Soviets, and the later Heavies (once they are available for production) come into play nicely on the Eastern Front (initially) and then elsewhere as the war progresses.

The general Tank type still represents a Tank type that through R&D can improve over time, and this way early Tank formations can improve as the war progresses, while the other locked in types are more specific (from their stats) but that can also improve through R&D.

Granted there can always be disagreement with any design choice, but after quite a bit of implementation and testing, and considering the scale, we feel that the current model works and plays quite well in game.

Hope this helps,
Hubert


Hi Hubert I understand why you have made the Tank units behave this way,and in game it does work well,I have just started play testing the game myself for the first time,and it is certainly a huge improvement on previous Stategic Command version's.

_____________________________

Make it so!

(in reply to Hubert Cater)
Post #: 9
RE: Unit Formation Size? - 11/17/2016 4:19:29 PM   
Hexagon


Posts: 1114
Joined: 6/14/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexagon

To be fair to be a new game and mantein the same problems from old titles... you cant stack air units or HQ units with land units...


Hi Hexagon,

I would say that at this point this was still more of a design decision on our end more than anything else and only because of the current size of the map, unit density and the added clarity of not having to deal with stacking and even limited stacking as outlined above.

Don't get me wrong, we certainly do understand the points here, but at the same time I'd suggest giving the current game a good play through to see if you might still feel the same way.

I also suggest this as even during Beta those that were strongly for it, actually altered their opinion and more or less considered it a non issue in the new game.

That being said, it is still on our radar for something to consider for smaller custom maps with higher unit densities as it is definitely more applicable there.

Hubert



In my case the problem with no stack of combat unit with HQ and air units is more based in 2 problems, one is the problem to defend this units from enemy, you need cicle them with units or at least cover a big part of their all around area, the other problem is that air units work in certain situations as blockage units for friendly units because you need concentrate them a lot in certain areas and cant be over the first-second line to increase their value.

Think that they have a range of attack and defend and you need use them as umbrellas and to operate over enemy territory (bombers to attack fighters to defend them).

This is why i think in a WWI the problem is less noticiable.

I feel that in the units area game could offer a lot more and improve the options for players, game is good??? yes, could be better, of course.


(in reply to Hubert Cater)
Post #: 10
RE: Unit Formation Size? - 11/17/2016 11:46:14 PM   
Dorb


Posts: 372
Joined: 10/8/2013
From: Ohio
Status: offline
Too much administrative detail and you will scare off the beer and pretzel wargamer.(guessing half the user base)

_____________________________

I am more afraid of an army of 100 sheep led by a lion than an army of 100 lions led by a sheep.
… Charles Maurice de Talleyrand-Perigord

(in reply to Hexagon)
Post #: 11
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Strategic Command Series >> Strategic Command WWII War in Europe >> Unit Formation Size? Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.125