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RE: Don't forget parts 6-8

 
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RE: Don't forget parts 6-8 - 10/20/2016 12:21:41 PM   
kirk23


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Video 17 Paradogs Gamer.

NAVAL COMBAT.

1 = Destroyer attacks sub,and the sub dives and evades,attack failed,and the player is disappointed.


2 = Attack 2 begins, uboat targets British Battlecruiser Renown strength 7,and does 2 points of damage,the player then moves in a second submarine from 4 hexes away,and does another 1 point of damage to Renown.Now the attack gets far fetched,a third sub races to the scene of the carnage,from 9 hexes away,and inflicts 3 more points of damage to the doomed Battlecruiser Renown,now for the clincher,the player moves a fourth sub in from 16 hexes away,and sinks the RENOWN.While this has been going on,all the time,the battleship Tirpitz and the Battlecruiser Scharnhorst,only 1 hex from Renown are just spectators as all this unfolds before them. RULE BRITANNIA ( not in this game ) why why why,is there no evade for surface ships in the game? Come on game designers,fix this now,this naval warfare is beyond a joke,and goes way beyond being wrong.Attacks do not succeed every time,just as the destroyer against Sub proved,the sub evades and escapes.Surely Renown who can do 32 Knots,can zig zag and evade torpedoes from Uboats.By the end of the players turn,Britain had lost,1 Aircraft Carrier,1 Battlecruiser,1 Light Cruiser and a Destroyer all in the English Channel. Game time its July 1941,if Britain has any navy left,my advice is sail to America to escape the slaughter.

If any veterans off the British Royal Navy are reading this,please don't watch any of these video's because they should be advertised as a horror film.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKu6xKP7CAg&list=PLt96thROd3u9rcKn4dRlhHcpaFTGQ_o4e&index=17


Game scale question? Does individual capital ships represent,just the ship IE: Battlecruiser Renown for example,or the capital ship plus destroyer screen? If there is a destroyer screen,then where were they while the Uboats were running amuck?

Same scale question,is a Destroyer unit 1 ship or a Flotilla?


< Message edited by kirk23 -- 10/20/2016 2:58:37 PM >


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RE: Don't forget parts 6-8 - 10/20/2016 3:32:47 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CC1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

Thanks gentlemen, this is already fixed on our end


Great! Can you let us know how this was fixed and will this also impact the fact that the UK CV (under AI control) in the Med also hung around at Malta turn after turn until it was finally sunk after being relentlessly attacked by bombers and the Regia Marina - see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Da5cMBMn6II&list=PLt96thROd3u9rcKn4dRlhHcpaFTGQ_o4e&index=15 from 11:07 to 11:58 for its final moments.

The CV was attacked over multiple turns which included the UK navy taking a pounding as well. It would seem that at this point (and knowing the threat and impending doom that lay ahead), the UK AI would pack it in and retreat the damaged CV to safer waters. It could also be rationalized, as Rasputitsa has interestingly pointed out in http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4163954&mpage=1� that the CV could have suffered a critical hit such that it could not be moved, but this would have to be by design (so the player is also affected) to make it more palpable...

C


Hi CC1,

One thing to keep in mind is that while the AI has scripted logic to its behavior, i.e. how and when to organize its fleet movements for the naval side, where to build up and attack (declarations of war) for the land side and son on, it also has a general logic side to it (one that universally handles all campaign and scenario types) such as general combat, retreat, protective movements and other basic behavior elements.

There are, let's just say a lot of coded routines for this, and in the set of protective movement routines that handle identifying when a unit should retreat, the specific one for naval units was not checking for when a naval unit was in port and sufficiently threatened. This is a single line of code probably representing near 0.001% of the AI code overall and a quick fix on my end. Essentially if a naval unit, as seen in the videos, is in harms way while in port, it will now move on to a safer location.

Sometimes behavioral issues such as this simply don't come to my attention at the level of detail as shown in the videos, and until they do, they remain in need of correction... but I wouldn't suggest that this is a reflection of the AI as a whole, especially when it does most other things very well, and more importantly, correctly or as suggested the type of behavior you'd expect.

The good thing here is that the AI is pretty easy to fine tune at the moment, due to the depth and robustness of the design, and corrections like this are constant and should be expected from our end as well.

Hope this helps,
Hubert

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Post #: 32
RE: Don't forget parts 6-8 - 10/20/2016 3:46:37 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kirk23

Hi Hubert, as I have said earlier,I have been watching all Paradogs Gamer AAR video's, and as far as I can see, during the players turn, the game is now seriously unbalanced! With the combination of the new movement,combined attacks,and the extremely high percentage of successful attacks on units,it appears to easy to completely destroy units. Units that will have to be replaced,I really fear that the MPPs available,will not be enough to build these needed new units,to replace the losses,which can only result in a fatal hemorrhage.

To counter this advantage,more attacks have to fail,this can easily be remedied by using the EVADE option,this in combination with maybe reduced damage per attack,will make the game much more challenging.



Hi Kirk,

Thanks for the feedback and the only thing I can suggest at this point is that the concerns here are indeed non issues on our end and that the game plays quite well and is very well balanced from start to finish.

A few things to keep in mind is that the game might be perhaps a bit different from what you are used to, again not sure here just throwing that out in case it applies, but on our end this is a system that we've used for almost 15 years and this new game simply builds upon the established foundation of the previous games. Additionally the game system is designed on the idea of destruction of units, and less so on constant evasion and survival, and as a result it has an arc of higher successes (and more destruction of Allied units) in the early years, followed by a slow but steady build up and push back and counter destruction by the Allies in the later years. Essentially the game plays well from 1939-1945 and summarizing the game simply on what happens from 1939-1941 does not necessarily paint the whole picture as the bulk of the war is still to be fought.

Remember, there will be an eventual juggernaut on the Soviet and US sides, that despite all these early successes by the Axis, will have to be dealt with and by mid to late 1943 this could be a very different looking game, especially as the Axis has spent a lot of MPP and capital against the Royal Navy and on places like Malta and so on. Eventually those redirected efforts will have to be accounted for

Honestly, the best feel you'll have for the game is after a few games and after playing it from both sides, and once you do you'll find that the game does, as mentioned, play quite well from start to finish.

Hope this helps,
Hubert



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Post #: 33
RE: Don't forget parts 6-8 - 10/20/2016 4:00:52 PM   
kirk23


Posts: 2867
Joined: 10/15/2010
From: Fife Scotland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater


quote:

ORIGINAL: kirk23

Hi Hubert, as I have said earlier,I have been watching all Paradogs Gamer AAR video's, and as far as I can see, during the players turn, the game is now seriously unbalanced! With the combination of the new movement,combined attacks,and the extremely high percentage of successful attacks on units,it appears to easy to completely destroy units. Units that will have to be replaced,I really fear that the MPPs available,will not be enough to build these needed new units,to replace the losses,which can only result in a fatal hemorrhage.

To counter this advantage,more attacks have to fail,this can easily be remedied by using the EVADE option,this in combination with maybe reduced damage per attack,will make the game much more challenging.



Hi Kirk,

Thanks for the feedback and the only thing I can suggest at this point is that the concerns here are indeed non issues on our end and that the game plays quite well and is very well balanced from start to finish.

A few things to keep in mind is that the game might be perhaps a bit different from what you are used to, again not sure here just throwing that out in case it applies, but on our end this is a system that we've used for almost 15 years and this new game simply builds upon the established foundation of the previous games. Additionally the game system is designed on the idea of destruction of units, and less so on constant evasion and survival, and as a result it has an arc of higher successes (and more destruction of Allied units) in the early years, followed by a slow but steady build up and push back and counter destruction by the Allies in the later years. Essentially the game plays well from 1939-1945 and summarizing the game simply on what happens from 1939-1941 does not necessarily paint the whole picture as the bulk of the war is still to be fought.

Remember, there will be an eventual juggernaut on the Soviet and US sides, that despite all these early successes by the Axis, will have to be dealt with and by mid to late 1943 this could be a very different looking game, especially as the Axis has spent a lot of MPP and capital against the Royal Navy and on places like Malta and so on. Eventually those redirected efforts will have to be accounted for

Honestly, the best feel you'll have for the game is after a few games and after playing it from both sides, and once you do you'll find that the game does, as mentioned, play quite well from start to finish.

Hope this helps,
Hubert





Hi Hubert, I must say I really do like all the Strategic Command games,because I have them all. If you are happy with the naval game,I can't change that,but what I can change is what I don't like via the editor,which is exactly what I will do. I agree the game otherwise is very very good,and flows from start to end.We will just agree to differ,on naval units and their survivability in game or lack of it in most cases. I think Battleships etc should evade and resist much more than they do.


< Message edited by kirk23 -- 10/20/2016 4:03:05 PM >


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RE: Don't forget parts 6-8 - 10/20/2016 4:08:09 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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Hi Kirk,

Absolutely and I was only commenting on the game as a whole and not necessarily on the naval aspect alone. Agreed though, and that is one of the nice things about the game series which is the fact that players will have access to the same Editor that we use to design the games, so not only can players design their own campaigns, but as you've mentioned, they can also adjust the game as they see fit.

That being said, Bill and I have been observing and taking in the feedback and are bouncing around some ideas to further tweak the naval model... which is the nice thing about still being in Beta, nothing is yet set in stone and there have already been some changes and improvements made for the final release

Hubert

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Post #: 35
RE: Don't forget parts 6-8 - 10/20/2016 4:15:01 PM   
kirk23


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Cheers!

What is the game scale you base naval units to be? Capital ships being individual units,or Capital ship + destroyer screen.

I'm modding a game using editor 1.05 version that comes with Breakthrough, that uses the premise that Naval units are all Squadron and Flotilla sized.

< Message edited by kirk23 -- 10/20/2016 4:16:53 PM >


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RE: Don't forget parts 6-8 - 10/20/2016 4:47:34 PM   
BillRunacre

 

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Each capital ship normally represents 2-3 ships of that class. They have minimal sub protection so that has to be provided either by upgrading with Anti-Submarine Warfare (representing the addition of Destroyers) or by using Destroyers to sweep ahead of the Battleships when they move.

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RE: Don't forget parts 6-8 - 10/21/2016 7:16:33 PM   
Christolos


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater


quote:

ORIGINAL: CC1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

Thanks gentlemen, this is already fixed on our end


Great! Can you let us know how this was fixed and will this also impact the fact that the UK CV (under AI control) in the Med also hung around at Malta turn after turn until it was finally sunk after being relentlessly attacked by bombers and the Regia Marina - see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Da5cMBMn6II&list=PLt96thROd3u9rcKn4dRlhHcpaFTGQ_o4e&index=15 from 11:07 to 11:58 for its final moments.

The CV was attacked over multiple turns which included the UK navy taking a pounding as well. It would seem that at this point (and knowing the threat and impending doom that lay ahead), the UK AI would pack it in and retreat the damaged CV to safer waters. It could also be rationalized, as Rasputitsa has interestingly pointed out in http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4163954&mpage=1� that the CV could have suffered a critical hit such that it could not be moved, but this would have to be by design (so the player is also affected) to make it more palpable...

C


Hi CC1,

One thing to keep in mind is that while the AI has scripted logic to its behavior, i.e. how and when to organize its fleet movements for the naval side, where to build up and attack (declarations of war) for the land side and son on, it also has a general logic side to it (one that universally handles all campaign and scenario types) such as general combat, retreat, protective movements and other basic behavior elements.

There are, let's just say a lot of coded routines for this, and in the set of protective movement routines that handle identifying when a unit should retreat, the specific one for naval units was not checking for when a naval unit was in port and sufficiently threatened. This is a single line of code probably representing near 0.001% of the AI code overall and a quick fix on my end. Essentially if a naval unit, as seen in the videos, is in harms way while in port, it will now move on to a safer location.

Sometimes behavioral issues such as this simply don't come to my attention at the level of detail as shown in the videos, and until they do, they remain in need of correction... but I wouldn't suggest that this is a reflection of the AI as a whole, especially when it does most other things very well, and more importantly, correctly or as suggested the type of behavior you'd expect.

The good thing here is that the AI is pretty easy to fine tune at the moment, due to the depth and robustness of the design, and corrections like this are constant and should be expected from our end as well.

Hope this helps,
Hubert


Hi Hubert,

Once again, thank you very much for this very detailed and illuminating explanation, and of course, for the fix as well.

Cheers,

C

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Post #: 38
RE: Don't forget parts 6-8 - 10/22/2016 11:43:18 AM   
ParadogsGamer

 

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Hello and thank you again for watching the beta videos :-)

Just a quick note about the naval situation. Please remember that I deliberately kept all the subs at home and waiting for the opportunity to strike a fatal blow to the RN. Had my subs been used in the Atlantic or already been sunk, this would not have been possible.
This does not excuse the AI behavior or the game mechanics, but just to say that this was indeed all planned for and I was able to reap the reward of having my entire sub fleet in the channel.

Cheers
ParadogsGamer

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Post #: 39
RE: Don't forget parts 6-8 - 10/22/2016 12:09:39 PM   
kirk23


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Video AARs are superb many many thanks for doing these,very much appreciated.

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RE: Don't forget parts 6-8 - 10/23/2016 2:12:41 AM   
YohanTM


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Love your reviews Paradogs. Look forward to challenging you

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RE: Don't forget parts 6-8 - 10/23/2016 2:59:58 AM   
Christolos


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ParadogsGamer

Hello and thank you again for watching the beta videos :-)

Just a quick note about the naval situation. Please remember that I deliberately kept all the subs at home and waiting for the opportunity to strike a fatal blow to the RN. Had my subs been used in the Atlantic or already been sunk, this would not have been possible.
This does not excuse the AI behavior or the game mechanics, but just to say that this was indeed all planned for and I was able to reap the reward of having my entire sub fleet in the channel.

Cheers
ParadogsGamer


Many thanks for posting the videos!

You raise a very good point about using the subs to help take on the British navy. It makes no sense to use the subs against convoys when as the German player one is committed to invading England and having to confront their navy first in order to ensure success.

Cheers,

C

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RE: Don't forget parts 6-8 - 10/23/2016 10:26:30 AM   
BillRunacre

 

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Hi CC1

While capturing London is the only way to guarantee an Axis Decisive Victory, the Axis have more than one route to victory, so launching Operation Sea Lion isn't obligatory, it's just one option among others.

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RE: Don't forget parts 6-8 - 10/23/2016 2:29:27 PM   
CAHouston

 

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maybe like artillery, if a DD is next to a capital ship it has a chance of attacking the SS before the SS can attack.

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RE: Don't forget parts 6-8 - 10/23/2016 6:29:47 PM   
Christolos


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Thanks Bill.

Indeed! This is what makes the game exciting to play!

I myself would like to explore commencing Barbarossa early in spring 1940 (to knock out Mother Russia early before she gets too powerful...), while maintaining a defensive land-based posture in the West with strategic bombing and convoy raiding.

November 17 is not coming fast enough!!!

Cheers,

C


< Message edited by CC1 -- 10/23/2016 7:00:02 PM >

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RE: Don't forget parts 6-8 - 10/23/2016 9:15:41 PM   
BillRunacre

 

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RE: Don't forget parts 6-8 - 10/23/2016 9:31:17 PM   
James Taylor

 

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All I can say CC1 is you'd better get France out early and then go USSR late Summer / Autumn of 40 or you'll regret it!

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RE: Don't forget parts 6-8 - 10/24/2016 5:51:12 PM   
Christolos


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Yes, I worry about France and England getting too strong while attaching Russia before taking France out of the picture. I also worry about not getting all the plunder MPPs from France...

C

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RE: Don't forget parts 6-8 - 10/26/2016 12:17:05 PM   
kirk23


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Either Paradogs Gamer is a better General than Erwin Rommell which, with respect is unlikely,or the Allies are hopeless my biggest concern is,how easy it was for Paradogs Gamer to successfully pull off operation Sea Lion? It appears that Britain's proud Royal Navy is no more,because it has not been seen either protecting Britain or in the Mediterranean.On land the situation is also dire for Britain.It is still only November 1941 in game and the USA arrival in the war is going to be to late to rescue Britain.Can I ask why the AI is still fighting in Egypt when Britain needs its forces more to defend the UK?


From what I can see so far while watching all these AAR videos is this,all combat is to powerful be that on land,sea or air.Units are to easily wiped out,I love the game but I'm going to be very busy altering all the combat effects via the editor when I get my copy.

Units should be able to resist more,and be much harder to overwhelm while protecting vital Cities.

NB: Why was London Britain's main city only protected by a Garrison? The AI should be protecting this vital City with the best land unit available.In the latest video 2 German Armies destroy a British Garrison defending London,entrenchment level 5.I think the AI should be better at protecting your Capital City,my hope is this will be fixed as soon as possible before the game is released.

Video AAR part 23: London captured


The Siege of Malta was a military campaign in the Mediterranean Theatre of the Second World War. From 1940–42, the fight for the control of the strategically important island of Malta pitted the air forces and navies of Italy and Germany against the Royal Air Force and the Royal Navy.

The opening of a new front in North Africa in mid-1940 increased Malta's already considerable value. British air and sea forces based on the island could attack Axis ships transporting vital supplies and reinforcements from Europe. General Erwin Rommel, in de facto field command of Axis forces in North Africa, recognised its importance quickly. In May 1941, he warned that "Without Malta the Axis will end by losing control of North Africa".

The Axis resolved to bomb or starve Malta into submission, by attacking its ports, towns, cities, and Allied shipping supplying the island. Malta was one of the most intensively bombed areas during the war. The Luftwaffe (German Air Force) and the Regia Aeronautica (Italian Royal Air Force) flew a total of 3,000 bombing raids over a period of two years in an effort to destroy RAF defences and the ports. Success would have made possible a combined German—Italian amphibious landing (Operation Herkules) supported by German airborne forces (Fallschirmjäger). It was never carried out. In the event, Allied convoys were able to supply and reinforce Malta, while the RAF defended its airspace, though at great cost in material and lives.

By November 1942, the Axis had lost the Second Battle of El Alamein and the Allies had landed forces in Vichy French Morocco and Algeria under Operation Torch. The Axis diverted their forces to the Battle of Tunisia, and attacks on Malta were rapidly reduced. The siege effectively ended in November 1942.

In December 1942, air and sea forces operating from Malta went over to the offensive. By May 1943, they had sunk 230 Axis ships in 164 days, the highest Allied sinking rate of the war. The Allied victory played a major role in the eventual Allied success in North Africa.


The Siege of Tobruk lasted for 241 days in 1941, after Axis forces advanced through Cyrenaica from El Agheila in Operation Sonnenblume against the British Western Desert Force (WDF) in Libya, during the Western Desert Campaign (1940–1943) of the Second World War. In late 1940, the British had defeated the Italian 10th Army during Operation Compass (9 December 1940 – 9 February 1941) and trapped the remnants at Beda Fomm. German troops and Italian reinforcements reached Libya, while much of the WDF was sent to Greece and replaced by a skeleton force, short of equipment and supplies.

Operation Sonnenblume (6 February – 25 May 1941), forced the British into a retreat to the Egyptian border. A garrison was left behind at Tobruk, to deny the port to the Axis, while the WDF reorganised and prepared a counter-offensive. The Axis siege of Tobruk began on 10 April, when the port was attacked by a force under Generalleutnant Erwin Rommel and continued during three relief attempts, Operation Brevity (15–16 May), Operation Battleaxe (15–17 June) and Operation Crusader (18 November – 30 December). The occupation of Tobruk deprived the Axis of a supply port closer to the Egypt–Libya border than Benghazi, 900 kilometres (560 mi) west of the Egyptian frontier, which was within the range of RAF bombers; Tripoli was 1,500 kilometres (930 mi) to the west in Tripolitania.

The siege diverted Axis troops from the frontier and the Tobruk garrison repulsed several Axis attacks. The port was frequently bombarded by artillery, dive-bombers and medium bombers, as the RAF flew defensive sorties from airfields far away in Egypt. British Mediterranean Fleet and Inshore Squadron ships ran the blockade, carrying reinforcements and supplies in and wounded and prisoners out. On 27 November, Tobruk was relieved by the Eighth Army (the name of the British and Allied force in the Western Desert since September 1941), during Operation Crusader.


The Siege of Sevastopol also known as the Defence of Sevastopol (Russian: Оборона Севастополя, transliteration: Oborona Sevastopolya) or simply the Battle of Sevastopol (German: Schlacht um Sewastopol) was a military battle and a siege that took place on the Eastern Front of the Second World War. The campaign was fought by the Axis powers of Germany, Romania, and Italy against the Soviet Union for control of Sevastopol, a port in the Crimea on the Black Sea. On 22 June 1941 the Axis invaded the Soviet Union during Operation Barbarossa. Axis land forces reached the Crimea in the autumn of 1941 and overran most of the area. The only objective not in Axis hands was Sevastopol. Several attempts were made to secure the city in October and November 1941. A major attack was planned for late November, but heavy rains delayed the Axis attack until 17 December 1941. Under the command of Erich von Manstein, Axis forces were unable to capture Sevastopol during this first operation. Soviet forces launched an amphibious landing on the Crimean peninsula at Kerch in December 1941 to relieve the siege and force the Axis to divert forces to defend their gains. The operation saved Sevastopol for the time being, but the bridgehead in the eastern Crimea was eliminated in May 1942.

After the failure of their first assault on Sevastopol, the Axis opted to conduct siege warfare until the middle of 1942, at which point they attacked the encircled Soviet forces by land, sea, and air. On 2 June 1942, the Axis began this operation, codenamed Störfang (Sturgeon Catch). The Soviet Red Army and Black Sea Fleet held out for weeks under intense Axis bombardment. The German Air Force (Luftwaffe) played a vital part in the siege. The Luftwaffe made up for a shortage of Axis artillery, providing highly effective aerial bombardment in support of the ground forces. Finally, on 4 July 1942, the remaining Soviet forces surrendered and the Axis seized the port. Both sides had suffered considerable losses during the siege and attack.

With the Soviet forces neutralised, the Axis refocused their attention on the major summer campaign of that year, Operation Blue and their advance to the Caucasus oil fields.



The Siege of Odessa also known as the Defence of Odessa was part of the Eastern Front theatre of World War II in 1941. The campaign was fought by the Axis powers of Romania and Germany against the Soviet Union for control of Odessa, a port on the Black Sea. On 22 June 1941 the Axis invaded the Soviet Union during Operation Barbarossa.

It was conducted by the Romanian 4th Army and elements of the German 11th Army. Due to the heavy resistance of the Soviet 9th Independent Army (initially) and the rapidly formed Separate Coastal Army, which was formed from the Coastal Group of the 9th Army, and the Black Sea Fleet forces in Odessa, it took the Axis forces 73 days of siege and four attempts to take the city. Romanian forces suffered 93,000 casualties, against Red Army casualties ranging from 41,000 to 60,000.



The Siege of Leningrad, also known as the Leningrad Blockade (Russian: блокада Ленинграда, transliteration: blokada Leningrada) was a prolonged military blockade undertaken mainly by the German Army Group North against Leningrad, historically and currently known as Saint Petersburg, in the Eastern Front theatre of World War II. The siege started on 8 September 1941, when the last road to the city was severed. Although the Soviets managed to open a narrow land corridor to the city on 18 January 1943, the siege was only lifted on 27 January 1944, 872 days after it began. It was one of the longest and most destructive sieges in history and possibly the costliest in terms of casualties.




< Message edited by kirk23 -- 10/26/2016 1:43:13 PM >


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RE: Don't forget parts 6-8 - 10/26/2016 2:53:34 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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quote:

Either Paradogs Gamer is a better General than Erwin Rommell which, with respect is unlikely,or the Allies are hopeless my biggest concern is,how easy it was for Paradogs Gamer to successfully pull off operation Sea Lion? It appears that Britain's proud Royal Navy is no more,because it has not been seen either protecting Britain or in the Mediterranean.On land the situation is also dire for Britain.It is still only November 1941 in game and the USA arrival in the war is going to be to late to rescue Britain.Can I ask why the AI is still fighting in Egypt when Britain needs its forces more to defend the UK?


From what I can see so far while watching all these AAR videos is this,all combat is to powerful be that on land,sea or air.Units are to easily wiped out,I love the game but I'm going to be very busy altering all the combat effects via the editor when I get my copy.

Units should be able to resist more,and be much harder to overwhelm while protecting vital Cities.

NB: Why was London Britain's main city only protected by a Garrison? The AI should be protecting this vital City with the best land unit available.In the latest video 2 German Armies destroy a British Garrison defending London,entrenchment level 5.I think the AI should be better at protecting your Capital City,my hope is this will be fixed as soon as possible before the game is released.


Hi Kirk23,

Paradogs game has been an interesting one for sure, but that being said I'd suggest waiting until the war is over before passing final judgement on the various settings as there is still quite a bit of fighting left to do and his pace/timeline so far in the USSR and in North Africa indicates that there will still be a tough fight ahead despite any successes in via Sea Lion. For example, the US has entered a bit earlier, and Soviet units will start to thicken and present more of an obstacle and likely begin to push back the longer the fight in the USSR continues.

To answer some questions, for the UK navy and some of the AI unit positional choices in the UK, keep in mind that this video is from an earlier Beta and not necessarily a reflection of what we have now and what will be in the final build. Again, we are always tweaking and most of these are minor fixes that are easily adjusted/improved. For example, the primary focus was to ensure a solid game from the AI from start to finish, think big picture point of view, then after that minor adjustments like having the AI swap out a Garrison from London with a stronger unit if the Axis invade, are easily adjusted once that type of behavior is identified as something that is need of improvement etc.

For the UK focusing on its defenses in North Africa, this is a tricky one as it pre-commits to a certain extent and it definitely does not send reinforcements down once a Sealion has begun, but at the same time, a withdrawal would have possible downsides to it as well, i.e. it opens up North Africa to the Axis, exposes reinforcement transports from North Africa to the UK to counterattack, and running those reinforcements from North Africa to the UK also take time and may not be enough to thwart a successful Sealion in the end. One additional thing to consider is that the UK is also not set to automatically surrender if the home island falls, and can move its government to either Canada or Egypt to continue to fight, so in some cases it might be best to hold fast in North Africa as is to prevent further collapse.

For the combat settings, I would also suggest playing the game through a few times to get a better feel, from both sides, as the game is really fine tuned to the current settings. For example, the economy and the collection of MPPs amounts, the turn lengths, reinforcement, upgrade and operational movement costs and so on, and while lowering the the effectiveness of combat is certainly an option, I think you'll find you'd have to make many adjustments across the board to ensure proper balance throughout the game.

A quick example would be the current turn lengths and how those will need to be adjusted as it would be much less likely to maintain historical timelines, i.e. the surrender of France or Poland, if units have much more survivability.

Hope this helps,
Hubert

(in reply to kirk23)
Post #: 50
RE: Don't forget parts 6-8 - 10/26/2016 3:15:02 PM   
kirk23


Posts: 2867
Joined: 10/15/2010
From: Fife Scotland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

quote:

Either Paradogs Gamer is a better General than Erwin Rommell which, with respect is unlikely,or the Allies are hopeless my biggest concern is,how easy it was for Paradogs Gamer to successfully pull off operation Sea Lion? It appears that Britain's proud Royal Navy is no more,because it has not been seen either protecting Britain or in the Mediterranean.On land the situation is also dire for Britain.It is still only November 1941 in game and the USA arrival in the war is going to be to late to rescue Britain.Can I ask why the AI is still fighting in Egypt when Britain needs its forces more to defend the UK?


From what I can see so far while watching all these AAR videos is this,all combat is to powerful be that on land,sea or air.Units are to easily wiped out,I love the game but I'm going to be very busy altering all the combat effects via the editor when I get my copy.

Units should be able to resist more,and be much harder to overwhelm while protecting vital Cities.

NB: Why was London Britain's main city only protected by a Garrison? The AI should be protecting this vital City with the best land unit available.In the latest video 2 German Armies destroy a British Garrison defending London,entrenchment level 5.I think the AI should be better at protecting your Capital City,my hope is this will be fixed as soon as possible before the game is released.


Hi Kirk23,

Paradogs game has been an interesting one for sure, but that being said I'd suggest waiting until the war is over before passing final judgement on the various settings as there is still quite a bit of fighting left to do and his pace/timeline so far in the USSR and in North Africa indicates that there will still be a tough fight ahead despite any successes in via Sea Lion. For example, the US has entered a bit earlier, and Soviet units will start to thicken and present more of an obstacle and likely begin to push back the longer the fight in the USSR continues.

To answer some questions, for the UK navy and some of the AI unit positional choices in the UK, keep in mind that this video is from an earlier Beta and not necessarily a reflection of what we have now and what will be in the final build. Again, we are always tweaking and most of these are minor fixes that are easily adjusted/improved. For example, the primary focus was to ensure a solid game from the AI from start to finish, think big picture point of view, then after that minor adjustments like having the AI swap out a Garrison from London with a stronger unit if the Axis invade, are easily adjusted once that type of behavior is identified as something that is need of improvement etc.

For the UK focusing on its defenses in North Africa, this is a tricky one as it pre-commits to a certain extent and it definitely does not send reinforcements down once a Sealion has begun, but at the same time, a withdrawal would have possible downsides to it as well, i.e. it opens up North Africa to the Axis, exposes reinforcement transports from North Africa to the UK to counterattack, and running those reinforcements from North Africa to the UK also take time and may not be enough to thwart a successful Sealion in the end. One additional thing to consider is that the UK is also not set to automatically surrender if the home island falls, and can move its government to either Canada or Egypt to continue to fight, so in some cases it might be best to hold fast in North Africa as is to prevent further collapse.

For the combat settings, I would also suggest playing the game through a few times to get a better feel, from both sides, as the game is really fine tuned to the current settings. For example, the economy and the collection of MPPs amounts, the turn lengths, reinforcement, upgrade and operational movement costs and so on, and while lowering the the effectiveness of combat is certainly an option, I think you'll find you'd have to make many adjustments across the board to ensure proper balance throughout the game.

A quick example would be the current turn lengths and how those will need to be adjusted as it would be much less likely to maintain historical timelines, i.e. the surrender of France or Poland, if units have much more survivability.

Hope this helps,
Hubert



Hi Hubert,

Many thanks for swift reply,I know the game is still in beta,and I assume that you have already rectified the problem of the AI protecting major cities like London,with only a garrison,yes as you say an easy fix.That said where is and what is the Royal Navy and the RAF doing?Have they been improved as to their ability to defend the English channel against possible invasion,and their ability to attempt to repel any invasion by Germany.Or is what has been seen in the videos by Paradogs Gamer excellent AAR as good as it gets?Because it appears that the Luftwaffe,the Kriegsmarine and the Heer are superior in all departments to what the Allies have.So far Britain's defense of the English Channel has been ineffective,I think Germany would have found crossing the channel a far more difficult task,than Paradogs Gamer was able to achieve with comparative ease,he even had the luxury of withdrawing air units to help attack Malta.

< Message edited by kirk23 -- 10/26/2016 3:48:31 PM >


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Post #: 51
RE: Don't forget parts 6-8 - 10/26/2016 4:01:10 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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In this beta, from 1939 to 1942, or what we've seen in the video, the RN primary tasks are to run Destroyers in the North Sea to attempt to spot and intercept any Kriegsmarine breakout, as well as to run Destroyers and possible Cruisers in the Atlantic to handle subs there. It will also run fleet naval patrols in the North Atlantic and North Sea looking for major Kriegsmarine units that may have slipped through the Destroyer patrols. Additionally it has the task of managing the Mediterranean against the Italians and so as a result of all of this the RN navy is not necessarily concentrated at any one time as it has a lot of tasks and area to cover.

Not every game is played with a Sealion, and/or a concentrated effort against Malta, and as a result this AI handling of RN responsibilities generally works out well, but as seen in this game a concentrated set of efforts can have some effect if the wrong concentration of RN forces are in the wrong areas. While it can be a challenge to have the AI anticipate and counter every human strategy with maximum effect, the good news is that we've already made adjustments for the final release

In Paradogs game, likely the RN and RAF have been rendered currently ineffective in the UK, a great success for the Axis here, and while the arguments can be made that the crossings have been made with comparative ease, it has been an expensive, high unit count, and time consuming endeavour as it is late 1941, and only London has fallen and Malta and Egypt still hold. The war is not yet won and while I could be wrong, I suspect Paradogs will have a hard time winning much more than a Minor Victory (should London, Berlin, Warsaw hold for the Axis) in the end... time will tell

< Message edited by Hubert Cater -- 10/26/2016 4:04:38 PM >

(in reply to kirk23)
Post #: 52
RE: Don't forget parts 6-8 - 10/26/2016 4:10:21 PM   
kirk23


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From: Fife Scotland
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Thank you its good to know that you have already made adjustments,in respect of the Royal Navy defense of the UK.The Navy and the RAF main task was the defence of Britain,anything else was of secondary importance.

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Post #: 53
Russia declaring war.... - 10/27/2016 2:05:50 AM   
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Russia declared war on Paradogs without really having any troops at the front to attack with - this event might need some adjusting?

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Post #: 54
RE: Russia declaring war.... - 10/27/2016 1:58:43 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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Hi Von Hindenburg,

From a game play perspective I would actually argue no and the main reasons for this are that by having the USSR declare war as soon as it reaches 100% mobilization, it immediately opens up another front against the Axis, i.e. putting pressure on them (and distracting them) to deal with this front, and that the USSR production arc really wouldn't have them built up with enough troops to be a significant offensive threat until mid 1942, which in most situations is too late as the Axis typically have finished dealing with a Sealion and would still be likely to DoW the USSR before the USSR would DoW the Axis in reverse.

Essentially, even though the Soviets are often in less than an ideal position to DoW as soon as they reach 100%, and they accelerate to 100% mobilization when the Axis launch a Sealion, it still forces the Axis player to divide their forces which is essential to play balance. For example, if the Axis know that the USSR is not likely to DoW prior to mid 1942, regardless of their own actions, then it simply tips the balance more in favor of the Axis to throw as many units in other directions and other than the Eastern front in those earlier years of the war etc.

Hubert



< Message edited by Hubert Cater -- 10/28/2016 3:50:35 AM >

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Post #: 55
RE: Russia declaring war.... - 10/29/2016 7:38:30 PM   
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True, but if you are going to declare war on someone you are going to at the very least have troops to defend your border/go on minor offenses....

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Post #: 56
RE: Russia declaring war.... - 10/30/2016 2:28:31 AM   
Hubert Cater

 

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I certainly don't disagree, and really it is just as mentioned about game balance. From experience players will tend take advantage of expected AI behaviour and really there are only two choices here:

1) Have the AI wait until it is more ready which realistically is not until early to mid 1942.

OR

2) Just have it DoW when it reaches full mobilization, and no matter if it is ideal for it to do so or not.

If I let the AI only follow number 1), then players will typically not bother to Garrison the eastern front at all (because they now know they don't have to) which severely tips the balance in favor of the Axis between the fall of France and mid 1942, while at least with 2) the Soviets do have enough at start units to warrant some concern and an Axis player will require some forces along the border for protective purposes, i.e. they can't throw their entire Army towards the UK and/or North Africa, or Spain and Gibraltar and so on.

There are ways around that, for example I could provide the USSR AI with a significant artificial boost of units so that when they DoW it feels better in game that they have just DoW in force in mid 1941, but it would feel too much like a serious cheat that I'd rather avoid.

In the end, while not perfect, option 2) just seems like the lesser of all the evils so to speak.

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Post #: 57
RE: Russia declaring war.... - 10/30/2016 4:15:57 PM   
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What about having the "~Russia Transfers the Siberian Army" incorporated into the "Russia Prepares for War" event?

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Post #: 58
RE: Russia declaring war.... - 11/6/2016 12:35:26 PM   
kirk23


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I have a query? In the latest Paradogs Gamer video part 34, The Italian navy have moved into the Dardanelles,how are they allowed to do that when Turkey is a neutral Country?

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Post #: 59
RE: Russia declaring war.... - 11/6/2016 2:27:32 PM   
BillRunacre

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kirk23

I have a query? In the latest Paradogs Gamer video part 34, The Italian navy have moved into the Dardanelles,how are they allowed to do that when Turkey is a neutral Country?


That does seem odd, we'll have to look into it. Thanks for pointing it out.

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