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Tojo's - 9/17/2016 10:17:06 AM   
geoffreyg


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When I come to it, is it a good idea to upgrade from the Tojo IIb to the IIc?
One gains armour but the two cannon change to machine guns.
Many thanks in advance for views.
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RE: Tojo's - 9/17/2016 12:35:38 PM   
PaxMondo


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The cannons are lousy ... c model is the best one by far ...

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RE: Tojo's - 9/17/2016 1:33:26 PM   
geofflambert


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Cannons are generally lousy unless you're trying to shoot down B-17s or strafing tanks. The role of the Tojo is defeating enemy fighters. Just wish they had the range of an Oscar.

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RE: Tojo's - 9/18/2016 1:26:37 AM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geoffreyg

When I come to it, is it a good idea to upgrade from the Tojo IIb to the IIc?
One gains armour but the two cannon change to machine guns.
Many thanks in advance for views.


Hi Geoffrey. Hope you're well.

Actually many IJ players try to not use the IIb version at all due to the poor accuracy of the cannons, and just go from the IIa to the IIc. The Iic is good right through until about late 44 as a service 1 defensive fighter.


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RE: Tojo's - 9/18/2016 11:03:07 AM   
geoffreyg


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Very well thanks, Erik.
Thanks also for all the above replies.
The aircraft weapons database gives range, penetration and effectiveness for each weapon.
Is there anywhere that gives accuracy both for the weapon and the position on the plane (CL, F etc).
Many thanks in advance.

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RE: Tojo's - 9/18/2016 12:56:40 PM   
PaxMondo


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There is a field = accuracy. for the 40mm Ho-301 cannon, the accuracy is 2%. Terrible. This is mostly due to its ROF. CL double the accuracy numbers.

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RE: Tojo's - 9/18/2016 1:25:24 PM   
Lowpe


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I can confirm first hand that Tojo IIb are tough to get to work well.

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RE: Tojo's - 9/18/2016 7:44:22 PM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I can confirm first hand that Tojo IIb are tough to get to work well.

I think we all can.

Essentially, they are just armed with 2x12.7mm CL. Ok, the 12.7 isn't bad, but only 2 of them against the allied standard 6 is really not good. The 40mm will fire maybe once per combat, if it hits sure you get a good outcome, but that is just so rare. otherwise you are just out gunned in most fights.

The Tojo c puts you on even footing. 2x12.7 CL and 2x12.7 F is equal to 6x50 cal F ...

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RE: Tojo's - 9/18/2016 7:47:38 PM   
oaltinyay


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I always wondered about the choice of 40mm in that plane whereas most other IJA fighters were armed with at most 12.7s. why tojo why 40 mm and why only that one and why not an intermediary 20mm or 30mm which they must have had.

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RE: Tojo's - 9/18/2016 11:39:45 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: oaltinyay

I always wondered about the choice of 40mm in that plane whereas most other IJA fighters were armed with at most 12.7s. why tojo why 40 mm and why only that one and why not an intermediary 20mm or 30mm which they must have had.

Sounds like an experiment in trying to create a bomber killer. The Zero line already had 20mm cannons and they just were not shooting down heavy bombers often enough.

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RE: Tojo's - 9/19/2016 3:39:17 AM   
PaxMondo


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Yeah, by the time it came out, I'm sure they were reacting to B-24's ... but that gun was not the solution. Way too slow, too big of recoil, just wrong. The IJA Ho-5 20mm was their best effort ... but not until '44 ...

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RE: Tojo's - 9/19/2016 4:09:25 AM   
MakeeLearn


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Interesting design, ...


The 40mm Ho-301 cannon used caseless ammunition, the specially designed projectile was in effect a small gunpowder rocket.

The low muzzle velocity (245 meters/second or about 804 ft/sec - equivalent to a moderately powerful air rifle.


760 fps according to some sources.

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 9/19/2016 4:13:26 AM >

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RE: Tojo's - 9/19/2016 11:37:07 PM   
Alpha77

 

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Only few build in reality no good plane, plane too light for such a gun - therefore gun had to be as light as possible but it never will be as good as a real full size gun. The German solution was to create some heavy fighters with 30mm etc. and 2E fighters problem with that was they fell prey to P51,P47s and Spits (much less speed and manvr due to heavy load). Japanese solution was light fighter with big gun, but these would not hit. Both solutions failed.

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RE: Tojo's - 9/23/2016 12:21:38 AM   
rustysi


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quote:

Is there anywhere that gives accuracy both for the weapon and the position on the plane (CL, F etc).


To answer your question, yes.

Oh, wait you want to know where that is, eh?

Top menu bar, several icons from the left, you will see one that is an A/C database I believe. If you select it and drill down on the A/C of you choice you will see a bunch of data, including what you seek.

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RE: Tojo's - 9/23/2016 10:25:38 PM   
SheperdN7


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The 40mm cannons on the Tojo are a tempting thing in concept, at least for a bomber-killer. Unfortunately they don't hit much and as others have pointed out, they are very slow firing. I'd upgrade the IIb to the IIc in a heartbeat if I had a Tojo line going but frankly, I'd rather have Ki-61 Tony's instead. Better durability and it has armour at the cost of a little slower max speed. Better armed as well (at least the later models).

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RE: Tojo's - 9/24/2016 1:54:43 AM   
Grfin Zeppelin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SheperdN7

The 40mm cannons on the Tojo are a tempting thing in concept, at least for a bomber-killer. Unfortunately they don't hit much and as others have pointed out, they are very slow firing. I'd upgrade the IIb to the IIc in a heartbeat if I had a Tojo line going but frankly, I'd rather have Ki-61 Tony's instead. Better durability and it has armour at the cost of a little slower max speed. Better armed as well (at least the later models).

There is a little more to it.
The Tojo comes much earlier.
It has a lower service rating.
Range more range.
The first variant of the Tony is a lemon.




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RE: Tojo's - 9/24/2016 2:30:38 AM   
geofflambert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SheperdN7

The 40mm cannons on the Tojo are a tempting thing in concept, at least for a bomber-killer. Unfortunately they don't hit much and as others have pointed out, they are very slow firing. I'd upgrade the IIb to the IIc in a heartbeat if I had a Tojo line going but frankly, I'd rather have Ki-61 Tony's instead. Better durability and it has armour at the cost of a little slower max speed. Better armed as well (at least the later models).


My experience with the Tony was it was only useful doing CAP except its performance doing that totally blew. Better to sweep than be swept and for that you need Tojos and/or Oscars.

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RE: Tojo's - 9/25/2016 3:20:30 PM   
Marshall


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I fly the Tojo IIA.
They keep up to par with the allied fighters up to Jan 1944.

As Japan you will have to switch to Franks by that time.

My Tojo II A squadrons at Truk shredded Corsairs and Hellcats in Dec 1943! (PBEM)

But as a main fighter it will be in need of replacement, the Franks will do the Job for you for the rest of the war as Army fighter.
Even with a service rating of 3.
You can keep some Tojo IIC as supporting fighters with good service rating, but i like to close the HA 35 engine production when i can and focus on 2 to 3 models of fighters, and mass produce.
I prefer the N1K1 as a land based naval fighter, they wreak havoc to the british airforce, and hold their own against Jugs and are good enough bomber killers.
The Frank however is the backbone for the Army untill the end of the game, or when you get your wondertoys

I never fly Tony's, they suck, and eat up your pilots.

< Message edited by Marshall -- 9/25/2016 7:54:55 PM >

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RE: Tojo's - 9/25/2016 5:55:17 PM   
Anthropoid


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How do Oscars fair?

I'm only now digging in to the plethora of 'Toms, Dicks and Harries' that is the Japanese 'tech tree' and must say it is bewildering.

Trying to decide: what R&D to leave on/ turn on/ build up as part of a "accumulate oil/resource but with a modicum of engines/aircraft/arms/ships being produced at the outset and then upscale and diversity the production outuputs from there moderated by stockpile growth/decline.

Seems like: Tokyo making Nakajima Ha-35 are just about the best choice if you want to restrict yourself to ONE engine for the first few months? -> Nate -> Oscar . . . A6M2->3->4->5, etc.

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RE: Tojo's - 9/25/2016 8:01:57 PM   
Marshall


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Oscars for the early war months,
Switch to Tojos when available.
Push the NJK1 and the Franks early on.

Look at the engines you need when the newer models dive bombers and torpedo bombers come availalbe.
Make a plan and calculation on your industry needs, and stick to it.
Make your plane choices early in the game, changing later will destroy the upgrade factory lines, and you will have to rebuild to get capacity in.
Also keep an eye on ship production, and tank production.
Be flexible in mid game, if you are Lucky you do not need to produce as many if the war is calm, and use the capacity to get extra supply.

But the Industry monster needs resources, and that is the key to your strategy of the war.
How to get that oil and fuel in, and ship these resources back home.

Who needs Guadalcanal when you are hauling in the Fuel and resources that lasts you 2 years of warfare.
Get to the oil fast, create a safe route by sea or land, and start hording the stuff!


< Message edited by Marshall -- 9/25/2016 8:02:33 PM >

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RE: Tojo's - 9/25/2016 10:23:28 PM   
Anthropoid


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall

Oscars for the early war months,
Switch to Tojos when available.
Push the NJK1 and the Franks early on.

Look at the engines you need when the newer models dive bombers and torpedo bombers come availalbe.
Make a plan and calculation on your industry needs, and stick to it.
Make your plane choices early in the game, changing later will destroy the upgrade factory lines, and you will have to rebuild to get capacity in.
Also keep an eye on ship production, and tank production.
Be flexible in mid game, if you are Lucky you do not need to produce as many if the war is calm, and use the capacity to get extra supply.

But the Industry monster needs resources, and that is the key to your strategy of the war.
How to get that oil and fuel in, and ship these resources back home.

Who needs Guadalcanal when you are hauling in the Fuel and resources that lasts you 2 years of warfare.
Get to the oil fast, create a safe route by sea or land, and start hording the stuff!



Words of wisdom! The AI won't know what hit 'em! (and eventually a human opponent )

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RE: Tojo's - 9/25/2016 10:58:30 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

How do Oscars fair?


I think these should be produced in some small numbers throughout the war. They have a good range and an SR of 1, and will be useful as bomber escorts. The last three in the line have armor and the last has 2x2mm cannon in the CL position. Not tons of firepower, but enough. Their speed is a bit low, but they do possess an adequate climb rate which could make them useful for CAP in some cases, especially when layered. They do however have a rather low durability that is a drawback. Hey, nobody's perfect.

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RE: Tojo's - 9/26/2016 12:29:46 AM   
geofflambert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

How do Oscars fair?


Well, if you're firing these, you're bound to do some damage. Many people ask me why Oscar has no private parts. The answer is simple: Oscar is a corporal.





Scientific studies have established that Oscar fares very poorly at being fair. Oscar is not fair as he has no hair.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 9/26/2016 12:32:24 AM >

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RE: Tojo's - 9/26/2016 4:46:26 AM   
PaxMondo


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Group your fighters based upon range ... range +12 is offensive, otherwise defensive. So, Tojo is a good defensive fighter for the IJ, but you can't use it well offensively as the range is so short. Of course you need some, but if you have already ceded the offensive in late '42 or even by mid- '43 as the IJ ....

Later in the war you need a lot of defensive fighters, but you still need some offensive ones for counter-attacks. So your build rates offensive:defensive have flipped ... being simplistic here of course, but still valid.

And of course PDU ON/OFF makes a VERY big deal on what you research and build.

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RE: Tojo's - 9/26/2016 10:48:52 AM   
Grfin Zeppelin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Group your fighters based upon range ... range +12 is offensive, otherwise defensive. So, Tojo is a good defensive fighter for the IJ, but you can't use it well offensively as the range is so short. Of course you need some, but if you have already ceded the offensive in late '42 or even by mid- '43 as the IJ ....

Later in the war you need a lot of defensive fighters, but you still need some offensive ones for counter-attacks. So your build rates offensive:defensive have flipped ... being simplistic here of course, but still valid.

And of course PDU ON/OFF makes a VERY big deal on what you research and build.


+1

< Message edited by Gräfin Zeppelin -- 9/26/2016 10:49:10 AM >


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RE: Tojo's - 9/26/2016 11:50:55 AM   
Shark7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

How do Oscars fair?

I'm only now digging in to the plethora of 'Toms, Dicks and Harries' that is the Japanese 'tech tree' and must say it is bewildering.

Trying to decide: what R&D to leave on/ turn on/ build up as part of a "accumulate oil/resource but with a modicum of engines/aircraft/arms/ships being produced at the outset and then upscale and diversity the production outuputs from there moderated by stockpile growth/decline.

Seems like: Tokyo making Nakajima Ha-35 are just about the best choice if you want to restrict yourself to ONE engine for the first few months? -> Nate -> Oscar . . . A6M2->3->4->5, etc.


Oscar...in my experience not well. Too light of guns, no armor. It is a death trap. The only thing it has going for it is that it has the same range as the army bombers, so it can at least act as cannon fodder for the allied interceptors.

As everyone else has said, switch to Tojo as quickly as possible, then choke back the range of your army bombers to match the Tojo range. Having a long range bomber is useless if it doesn't survive long enough to get to the target anyway.

Now then, there is always an exception to the rule. In my current game I have one group of Oscars that has several 80+ XP pilots. I'm currently using it to escort on missions to Darwin and Broome, and it is shredding the allied fighters stationed there for virtually no losses in return against the AI. So the combination of very skilled IJA pilots in Oscar Ic's versus mediocre allied pilots in Kittyhawks, Warhawks and Aircobras is allowing that one Oscar group to do well...like I said the exception to the rule. I also managed to get 1 IJA pilot to 90XP and 17 kills in an Oscar before I sent him to TRACOM, figured he earned it.

My impression is that in the early war, they are decent. But they become completely obsolete as soon as the first Hurricanes, Spitfires and P-38s enter the picture.

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RE: Tojo's - 9/26/2016 1:14:47 PM   
geofflambert


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Oscars get better over time and since they're Army you shouldn't have a shortage of good pilots if your training program is adequate to the task. They are actually about equivalent to the Zero which served the IJN well for much of the war. Like all Japanese fighters (early) they are undergunned. Because of their range and, beginning with the IIa, their bomb load, they will be quite useful well into the war. With the IIa, if you've trained them in naval attack as well as escort you have something that will be quite dangerous against enemy shipping and auxiliaries like mine layers and sweepers. I haven't tried it but I bet you could train them for ASW roles as well with success. What I want to stress is that the IJN will always be short of air crews and fighter pilots should only be trained for fighter missions and used sparingly at that. Because the Oscar is an IJA plane and because of the capabilities it inherently has, it is a very important aircraft indeed, if used to its potential.

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RE: Tojo's - 9/26/2016 1:41:08 PM   
Marshall


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Oscars get better over time and since they're Army you shouldn't have a shortage of good pilots if your training program is adequate to the task. They are actually about equivalent to the Zero which served the IJN well for much of the war. Like all Japanese fighters (early) they are undergunned. Because of their range and, beginning with the IIa, their bomb load, they will be quite useful well into the war. With the IIa, if you've trained them in naval attack as well as escort you have something that will be quite dangerous against enemy shipping and auxiliaries like mine layers and sweepers. I haven't tried it but I bet you could train them for ASW roles as well with success. What I want to stress is that the IJN will always be short of air crews and fighter pilots should only be trained for fighter missions and used sparingly at that. Because the Oscar is an IJA plane and because of the capabilities it inherently has, it is a very important aircraft indeed, if used to its potential.



As Japan, the last thing i want to do is fly "zero" equivalent fighters against 1944 allied airframes
To use the Oscar as a naval bomber is not sustainable into 1943.
Best use of Oscars is Kamikaze fodder in 1945.

Even if i train enough pilots for the losses, the training and airframe losses are still vauable production pieces, and pressure on the economy.
I rather go for a airframe that survives combat and gives my hard trained veterans a good chance.

What does Japan get for producing massive amounts of Oscars when they are shot down in droves? it cost fuel, resources, HI and a well trained pilot.

Tojos for me anytime, they cut down allied fighters and bombers in a way the oscar can only dream off, and when the airframe appears that can mingle, it is outdated with the new generation of fighters arriving.
COmplete waste of industry for Japan, use Oscars for the first few months, then switch to Tojos.

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RE: Tojo's - 9/26/2016 2:26:06 PM   
geofflambert


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Don't build tons of Oscars. You need a few squadrons of them. There will be situations where the Tojos simply won't do because they can't get there. If your planes are getting shot down in droves, don't blame the planes, blame your tactics. This goes for the bombers you're misusing in an unsustainable fashion and escorting them with whatever, as well. The allied player can do stuff you can't not because, or just because his planes are better but because he's turning them out like cuckoo clocks and well trained pilots as well. The planes can't win the war. If anything can it is your strategy and tactics.

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Post #: 29
RE: Tojo's - 9/26/2016 3:09:19 PM   
Marshall


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My tactics are very sound, but the fact is, the Oscar is no match for allied fighters.
For escort i use the NJk1

Tojos for me are defensive planes, CAP, or Sweep if the enemy base is close by.

I do not send out Bombers to be slaughtered. The fac tis that the Oscar is not good enough, even the japanese pilots after the war stated this
They rather have the Tojo when available, or the Frank later on.

Production wise, there is no forte to keeping the Oscar going, from june 1942, the Tojo rules.
The Oscar is undergunned, and a crappy fighter.
It's extended range to max 14 does not bring anything, if i want to escort long range strikes i use the Zero early on, that gives range with my Betty bombers on naval attack duty.
After 1942, no more Oscars, other then training planes or kamikaze fodder in late war period (clean out the stock)

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