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RE: TM, RA, and BTS Re-Write - 3/13/2021 10:56:49 PM   
John 3rd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

I'm getting old John, and I think my mind was playing tricks with me. I thought I saw something and later it was different that I remembered. Sorry.


No issues Nomad. I have that happen ALL the damned time! Always appreciate you looking. Your comments on the 4EB were spot on and, had we not already changed it, you would have had a fantastic case to examine and make us change. ALWAYS value that kind of commentary and thoughtfulness.


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(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 1141
RE: TM, RA, and BTS Re-Write - 3/14/2021 1:56:30 AM   
John 3rd


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Thinking on the Hiryu-Class wartime ships, should there be minor changes reflecting wartime lessons learned?

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Post #: 1142
RE: TM, RA, and BTS Re-Write - 3/14/2021 10:12:19 AM   
AtParmentier

 

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Just remember that changing the type of carrier doesn't change the amount of them you'll get. Generally it's 1 ship for another, even 1 Yamato equals max 4 destroyers if you're very lucky.

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Post #: 1143
RE: TM, RA, and BTS Re-Write - 3/14/2021 3:28:25 PM   
John 3rd


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Very aware. In RA, Yamamoto adds two cruiser slipways when he becomes Minister in 1938 this is what helps the additional building. The established seven gain two more for nine at a time. Will have to do research for the time it took to build Hiryu on her slipway.


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(in reply to AtParmentier)
Post #: 1144
RE: TM, RA, and BTS Re-Write - 3/14/2021 7:03:37 PM   
Hrafnagud

 

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Hiryu took 16 months from being laid down to being launched on the slip at Yokosuka Naval Yard. It then took another 20 months to commission.

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 1145
RE: TM, RA, and BTS Re-Write - 3/14/2021 8:10:33 PM   
AtParmentier

 

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Shokaku took 17 months and 20 days from being laid down to being launched, a further 26 months and 7 days were needed for commissioning.
Zuikaku took 18 months and 2 days from being laid down to being launched, a further 21 months and 29 days were needed for commissioning.

So Shokaku takes about 2 months extra to build and two to 4 months longer than Hiryu.

Unryu times are: on slip way 13 months, 24 days; 10 months, 12 days fitting out.
Amagi took a shorter time to be build. Times are: 12 months, 14 days and 9 months, 27 days.

Ikoma which was supposed to be a simplified Unryu was not completed, but had 16 months and 13 days in the slipway.

Taiho took 20 months and 29 days in the slipway, 11 months extra fitting out.

< Message edited by AtParmentier -- 3/14/2021 9:11:21 PM >

(in reply to Hrafnagud)
Post #: 1146
RE: TM, RA, and BTS Re-Write - 3/14/2021 9:59:57 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 12523
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Am stuck at the store while it snows to beat all heck. Very slow. Sort of like feel yourself age while working slow...

Michael and I have spoken several times on the separation of the Mods. I really like the idea. We are going to work something along these lines:

Between the Storms Heavy--The Fleet Faction of the Kaigun wins the struggle (as is historical) and we get the changes detailed the current BTSH. Yamamoto still becomes Naval Minister but cannot substantively change building policy within the Imperial Navy. You get the Shokaku/Shokaku-Kai designs, 4 Yamato-Class, and the Light Battlecruisers. It is heavier, bigger gunned and a fun scenario to play with.

Between the Storms Lite--The Treaty Faction wins the battle for the soul of the Kaigun. Everything stays the same thru exiting the Treaty System in 1935. Washington and London Treaties are the same. The change occurs when the Fleet Faction rams thru the exit from the Treaty System. Yamamoto and other Treaty-Minded individuals realize that things MUST change and purge the Fleet thru 'disappearances' and forced retirements.

This move leaves the Kaigun OPEN for changes. The Treaty Officers know that quality CANNOT defeat quantity. Without the controls of the Treaty System, Japan will be hopelessly outbuilt in ships. The solution, while time remains, is to build upon successful designs and work to find a workable philosophy to fight the United States Navy. More economical-sized ships are one answer. Instead of Hiraga's behemoths (Yamato and B-64/65), the design of a more conventional 16" Owari-Class BB is accepted. Fast carriers and strong heavy cruisers move to fore. The successful Hiryu-Class becomes the standard for Japan's Fleet Carriers. These fast and maneuverable carriers will serve as Japan's future. Compared to the Shokaku-Class these CVs are cheaper and faster to build. The Niitaka-Class CA (15,000T) build upon the previous successful heavy cruiser designs.

From 1936 to war start, Japan orders the following:
4 Owari-Class BB
4 Hiryu-Class CV
4 Niitaka-Class CA

Two of each are complete in Dec 41. The second pair of BBs will be available in 1943, the CVs and CAs will come in in late-42.

War orders see 6 more CVs and 6 more CAs. The pairs each come out in 1943, 1944, and 1945.


In Real Life, the Japanese had 2 Shokaku (72 planes), 1 Taiho (63), 1 Shinano (??--48), and 6 Unryu (63) for 633 Planes.

BTSL adds 10 CVs (69) for 690 Planes. The carriers are fast but brittle compared to the Shokaku, Taiho, and Shinano-Classes.


This is the preliminary idea. Certainly would make things different. The vast majority of the carrier force would be 34 Knots. You can move fast and strike at a distance and, PERHAPS, survive!


Snow is so nice and pretty . . .

I was thinking of changing some of the AA updates for the IJN to include a copy of the German 37mm gun which could have been procured from Germany. Think of two 37mms for three 25mms. No AA rockets either on board ships.

Maybe even add some 37mms to some of the IJN/IJA base forces and AAA units.

There are also a couple of documents/web pages that are Russian and apparently are how the Soviet TO&E changed for the divisions from the start of the war to the conclusion of the war. Apparently, the initial size of the infantry divisions were comparable to a Western brigades but other elements were added later. Since I neither speak Russian nor read their alphabet, that will take a little time to decode. The changes could either be a TOE upgrade or additional units to be combined to form the division.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 1147
RE: TM, RA, and BTS Re-Write - 3/14/2021 10:28:50 PM   
AtParmentier

 

Posts: 59
Joined: 12/15/2019
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Am stuck at the store while it snows to beat all heck. Very slow. Sort of like feel yourself age while working slow...

Michael and I have spoken several times on the separation of the Mods. I really like the idea. We are going to work something along these lines:

Between the Storms Heavy--The Fleet Faction of the Kaigun wins the struggle (as is historical) and we get the changes detailed the current BTSH. Yamamoto still becomes Naval Minister but cannot substantively change building policy within the Imperial Navy. You get the Shokaku/Shokaku-Kai designs, 4 Yamato-Class, and the Light Battlecruisers. It is heavier, bigger gunned and a fun scenario to play with.

Between the Storms Lite--The Treaty Faction wins the battle for the soul of the Kaigun. Everything stays the same thru exiting the Treaty System in 1935. Washington and London Treaties are the same. The change occurs when the Fleet Faction rams thru the exit from the Treaty System. Yamamoto and other Treaty-Minded individuals realize that things MUST change and purge the Fleet thru 'disappearances' and forced retirements.

This move leaves the Kaigun OPEN for changes. The Treaty Officers know that quality CANNOT defeat quantity. Without the controls of the Treaty System, Japan will be hopelessly outbuilt in ships. The solution, while time remains, is to build upon successful designs and work to find a workable philosophy to fight the United States Navy. More economical-sized ships are one answer. Instead of Hiraga's behemoths (Yamato and B-64/65), the design of a more conventional 16" Owari-Class BB is accepted. Fast carriers and strong heavy cruisers move to fore. The successful Hiryu-Class becomes the standard for Japan's Fleet Carriers. These fast and maneuverable carriers will serve as Japan's future. Compared to the Shokaku-Class these CVs are cheaper and faster to build. The Niitaka-Class CA (15,000T) build upon the previous successful heavy cruiser designs.

From 1936 to war start, Japan orders the following:
4 Owari-Class BB
4 Hiryu-Class CV
4 Niitaka-Class CA

Two of each are complete in Dec 41. The second pair of BBs will be available in 1943, the CVs and CAs will come in in late-42.

War orders see 6 more CVs and 6 more CAs. The pairs each come out in 1943, 1944, and 1945.


In Real Life, the Japanese had 2 Shokaku (72 planes), 1 Taiho (63), 1 Shinano (??--48), and 6 Unryu (63) for 633 Planes.

BTSL adds 10 CVs (69) for 690 Planes. The carriers are fast but brittle compared to the Shokaku, Taiho, and Shinano-Classes.


This is the preliminary idea. Certainly would make things different. The vast majority of the carrier force would be 34 Knots. You can move fast and strike at a distance and, PERHAPS, survive!


Snow is so nice and pretty . . .

I was thinking of changing some of the AA updates for the IJN to include a copy of the German 37mm gun which could have been procured from Germany. Think of two 37mms for three 25mms. No AA rockets either on board ships.

Maybe even add some 37mms to some of the IJN/IJA base forces and AAA units.

There are also a couple of documents/web pages that are Russian and apparently are how the Soviet TO&E changed for the divisions from the start of the war to the conclusion of the war. Apparently, the initial size of the infantry divisions were comparable to a Western brigades but other elements were added later. Since I neither speak Russian nor read their alphabet, that will take a little time to decode. The changes could either be a TOE upgrade or additional units to be combined to form the division.


Which 37mm? The 3.7 cm SK C/30, 3.7 cm Flak M42, 3.7 cm Flak 43, or 3.7 cm Flak 18/36/37/43?
Also could maybe implement the stopped and then restarted development of the 127mm/50 type 1/5.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 1148
RE: TM, RA, and BTS Re-Write - 3/14/2021 11:12:00 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 12523
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: AtParmentier


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Am stuck at the store while it snows to beat all heck. Very slow. Sort of like feel yourself age while working slow...

Michael and I have spoken several times on the separation of the Mods. I really like the idea. We are going to work something along these lines:

Between the Storms Heavy--The Fleet Faction of the Kaigun wins the struggle (as is historical) and we get the changes detailed the current BTSH. Yamamoto still becomes Naval Minister but cannot substantively change building policy within the Imperial Navy. You get the Shokaku/Shokaku-Kai designs, 4 Yamato-Class, and the Light Battlecruisers. It is heavier, bigger gunned and a fun scenario to play with.

Between the Storms Lite--The Treaty Faction wins the battle for the soul of the Kaigun. Everything stays the same thru exiting the Treaty System in 1935. Washington and London Treaties are the same. The change occurs when the Fleet Faction rams thru the exit from the Treaty System. Yamamoto and other Treaty-Minded individuals realize that things MUST change and purge the Fleet thru 'disappearances' and forced retirements.

This move leaves the Kaigun OPEN for changes. The Treaty Officers know that quality CANNOT defeat quantity. Without the controls of the Treaty System, Japan will be hopelessly outbuilt in ships. The solution, while time remains, is to build upon successful designs and work to find a workable philosophy to fight the United States Navy. More economical-sized ships are one answer. Instead of Hiraga's behemoths (Yamato and B-64/65), the design of a more conventional 16" Owari-Class BB is accepted. Fast carriers and strong heavy cruisers move to fore. The successful Hiryu-Class becomes the standard for Japan's Fleet Carriers. These fast and maneuverable carriers will serve as Japan's future. Compared to the Shokaku-Class these CVs are cheaper and faster to build. The Niitaka-Class CA (15,000T) build upon the previous successful heavy cruiser designs.

From 1936 to war start, Japan orders the following:
4 Owari-Class BB
4 Hiryu-Class CV
4 Niitaka-Class CA

Two of each are complete in Dec 41. The second pair of BBs will be available in 1943, the CVs and CAs will come in in late-42.

War orders see 6 more CVs and 6 more CAs. The pairs each come out in 1943, 1944, and 1945.


In Real Life, the Japanese had 2 Shokaku (72 planes), 1 Taiho (63), 1 Shinano (??--48), and 6 Unryu (63) for 633 Planes.

BTSL adds 10 CVs (69) for 690 Planes. The carriers are fast but brittle compared to the Shokaku, Taiho, and Shinano-Classes.


This is the preliminary idea. Certainly would make things different. The vast majority of the carrier force would be 34 Knots. You can move fast and strike at a distance and, PERHAPS, survive!


Snow is so nice and pretty . . .

I was thinking of changing some of the AA updates for the IJN to include a copy of the German 37mm gun which could have been procured from Germany. Think of two 37mms for three 25mms. No AA rockets either on board ships.

Maybe even add some 37mms to some of the IJN/IJA base forces and AAA units.

There are also a couple of documents/web pages that are Russian and apparently are how the Soviet TO&E changed for the divisions from the start of the war to the conclusion of the war. Apparently, the initial size of the infantry divisions were comparable to a Western brigades but other elements were added later. Since I neither speak Russian nor read their alphabet, that will take a little time to decode. The changes could either be a TOE upgrade or additional units to be combined to form the division.


Which 37mm? The 3.7 cm SK C/30, 3.7 cm Flak M42, 3.7 cm Flak 43, or 3.7 cm Flak 18/36/37/43?
Also could maybe implement the stopped and then restarted development of the 127mm/50 type 1/5.


Whichever 37mm that the Germans gave plans for and samples of.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to AtParmentier)
Post #: 1149
RE: TM, RA, and BTS Re-Write - 3/14/2021 11:14:05 PM   
John 3rd


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From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline
Like the idea of a Soviet upgrade. Any idea what it is?


_____________________________



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Reluctant Admiral Mod:
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(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 1150
RE: TM, RA, and BTS Re-Write - 3/14/2021 11:31:15 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 12523
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: online
Although these numbers are for the West, in the East they would probably be similar. Many units also did not have the support troops so there should be fewer of those in the unit, relying on other units for support.

quote:

Charles C.Sharp ("Red Legions/Soviet Order of Battle World War II Vol.8, p.5)") mentions average rifle Divisions strengths as at 1st June 1941 for the following military districts.

Leningrad Military District - 11,985 men
Baltic Military District - 8,712 men
Western Military District - 9,327 men
Kiev Military District - 8,792 men
Odessa Military District - 8,400 men

This was despite the mobilzation of about 500,000 men in the spring of 1941 to bring all the rifle divisons in these districts up to the "12" level (12,000 men).


https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=112693&start=15

There is other good information including some tables there.

I don't read Russian but this might be interesting if it was translated:

https://web.archive.org/web/20150704133759/http://guides.rusarchives.ru/browse/guidebook.html?bid=121&sid=92105

Then there is this one:

https://army.armor.kiev.ua/hist/doklad-nko-8-39.shtml

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 1151
RE: TM, RA, and BTS Re-Write - 3/15/2021 12:07:46 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 12523
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: online
From the John Tiller Design Studio:

quote:

Researching an Order of Battle – The Soviets (continued 1)


https://www.wargamedesignstudio.com/2016/12/31/researching-an-order-of-battle-the-soviets-continued-1/#:~:text=The%20last%20Shtat%20%28TO%26E%29%20for%20the%20rifle%20divisions,divisions%20were%20built%20slightly%20bigger%20in%20certain%20areas.

From the link, an Infantry Division was down to 6 or 7 battalions and the artillery crews had fewer men. If this was the case in the West, on the relatively quiet Siberian area, why would the units be maintained at full strength?

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 1152
RE: TM, RA, and BTS Re-Write - 3/15/2021 12:24:01 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 12523
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: online
From here:

http://www.oocities.org/historyfan2002/toe/soviet/sovtoe.htm

to

quote:

Soviet Infantry Division
(Wartime Strength 5th April, 1941) (14439 men)
(TO&E series number 4/400-416)


https://www.oocities.org/historyfan2002/toe/soviet/div01.htm

to

quote:

Soviet Diminished Division
(Sokrashtshenna divizia)
(29th July, 1941)


https://www.oocities.org/historyfan2002/toe/soviet/div02.htm

No manpower total given, but don't forget that you can add them up but make sure that you include the dog platoon!

There are links to other organizations as well.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 1153
RE: TM, RA, and BTS Re-Write - 3/15/2021 2:46:54 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 12523
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: online
In here:

The Soviet-German War 1941-1945: Myths and Realities: A Survey Essay

https://web.archive.org/web/20140811030843/http://sti.clemson.edu/publications-mainmenu-38/publications-library/cat_view/33-strom-thurmond-institute/153-sti-publications-by-subject-area/158-history

You can read how the Soviets kept coming up with new and reformed units. I am sure that some of the men would come from soldiers who escaped the debacle of their units fate, with others as new conscripts, but why would the units in the East be left intact while Japan was otherwise occupied? While the whole unit may not have left, other than what does leave in the game, why not some of the officers, NCO, and enlisted men leave to help form the new units?

quote:


Reflections:
Overall, the Red Army’s summer and fall campaign of 1944 constituted a long series of unmitigated disasters for Axis armies and fortunes in the East. The Red Army’s summer offensives alone cost Axis forces an estimated 465,000 soldiers killed or captured. Between 1 June and 30 November 1944, total German losses on all fronts were1,457,000, of which 903,000 were lost on the Eastern Front. By the end of 1944, only Hungary remained as a German ally, and Germany felt increasingly besieged and isolated, with the Red Army lodged in East Prussia in the north, along the Vistula River in Poland, and across the Danube in Hungary, and with Allied armies within striking distance of Germany’s western borders. The Soviet Union also suffered heavily during this period, coming ever closer to the bottom of its once-limitless barrel of manpower. In an effort to compensate for this, Soviet plans used steadily increasing amounts of artillery, armor, and airpower to reduceman power losses. In the process, moreover, the Soviet commanders had the opportunity to test out their operational theories under a variety of different tactical and terrain considerations. These commanders still made occasional mistakes, but they entered 1945 at the top of their form.


The italics are mine, that is from page 85 of the above link which has a downloadable PDF.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 1154
RE: TM, RA, and BTS Re-Write - 3/29/2021 10:24:20 PM   
Nomad


Posts: 5090
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From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline
John, since you are cleaning up, TOE# 2719, 2720, and 2721 have improper delay dates they are set as 4207, 4305, and 4305.
They all need to be complete 6 digit dates, so 420701, 430501 and 430502.
As they are they update 4207 days and 4305 days after the scenario start.

< Message edited by Nomad -- 3/29/2021 10:26:48 PM >


_____________________________


(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 1155
RE: TM, RA, and BTS Re-Write - 4/9/2021 1:36:22 PM   
Nattman

 

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First time installing this mod, do I have to install DaBabes mod separately or is it already integrated in BTSH?

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Post #: 1156
RE: TM, RA, and BTS Re-Write - 4/9/2021 1:50:03 PM   
btd64


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I have a separate install for each different group of mods. Because the art and sometimes the map is different....GP

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(in reply to Nattman)
Post #: 1157
RE: TM, RA, and BTS Re-Write - 4/9/2021 3:07:55 PM   
Cavalry Corp

 

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Hopefully yo will have mine very soon a complete revamp but based on RA8.0

(in reply to btd64)
Post #: 1158
RE: TM, RA, and BTS Re-Write - 6/5/2021 12:02:35 AM   
Nomad


Posts: 5090
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I don't understand why, but all of the USN air HQs are set to be USA units.

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Post #: 1159
RE: TM, RA, and BTS Re-Write - 7/14/2021 3:51:44 PM   
Cavalry Corp

 

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Joined: 9/2/2003
From: Sampford Spiney Devon UK
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John,

My mod based on your RA 8.0 but I admit became its own baby, is now out - It would be real cool if you put it on your site as well. Thanks to you for the inspiration to do it at all.

Password Empire1941

https://gingerdragonltd-my.sharepoint.com/:u:/g/personal/michael_gingerdragon_com/EVmZBBYzYKRDuAFoz1_bCSoBUREZg36PTa6k1t5qXI2vbg?e=ZByKnR




(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 1160
RE: TM, RA, and BTS Re-Write - 7/26/2021 3:11:11 PM   
Cavalry Corp

 

Posts: 2952
Joined: 9/2/2003
From: Sampford Spiney Devon UK
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John You may like to see my post in Modding about mines as I used your R8.0 which has the same settings.

(in reply to Cavalry Corp)
Post #: 1161
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