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Guards conversion, isolated and way behind lines - 9/8/2016 1:36:44 PM   
cavalry

 

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I had a pocket of 2 RU INf div convert to Guards when about 20 hexes behind my lines. I had been attacking them several times. Seems a bit odd

can Guards status be gained like this and second is it the number of attacks they defend against of the number of units that actually attack them?

I have another appear at Odessa also 20 hexes and besieged behind the lines

PBEM Latest patch Oct 41

I also have 1 pz Div gain 50 BT7 captured tanks - fair enough but I thought it could not happen that early or am I wrong?
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RE: Guards conversion, isolated and way behind lines - 9/8/2016 4:46:45 PM   
morvael


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All WAD.

Instead of food and ammo they got a nice title to boost their morale :)

October 1941 is exactly when captured equipment can be used in units for the first time.

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RE: Guards conversion, isolated and way behind lines - 9/8/2016 6:10:33 PM   
cavalry

 

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OK fine thanks for answering...

Does the victories for a unit depend on the number of attacks or the number of attacking units it faces that fail?

< Message edited by cavalry -- 9/8/2016 6:11:50 PM >

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RE: Guards conversion, isolated and way behind lines - 9/8/2016 8:54:34 PM   
morvael


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No doubt the divisional comissar made a speech similar to this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragutin_Gavrilovi%C4%87

Every kind of win counts, offensive and defensive. The same with losses.


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RE: Guards conversion, isolated and way behind lines - 9/8/2016 9:55:48 PM   
Icier


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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael



Every kind of win counts, offensive and defensive. The same with losses.




I know this is going to start another round of whinging, but maybe its worthwhile to increase the number wins ( I understand its only 7 actions)..to stop the Russian army becoming all Guards.
Or each year increase the number of actions required before you qualify, or, as been argued before, put a number that can be guard units.



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RE: Guards conversion, isolated and way behind lines - 9/8/2016 10:29:13 PM   
morvael


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There are limits, and conversion to Guards starts late in 1941.

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RE: Guards conversion, isolated and way behind lines - 9/8/2016 10:33:34 PM   
Michael T


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I am still in September 1941 and have 17 Gd Rd and 1 Gd CavD.

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RE: Guards conversion, isolated and way behind lines - 9/9/2016 12:19:30 AM   
Icier


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You know I am going to ask...what are the limits & is it just recent?
Just a quick count of the front @ Nov 42..my opposition has 49 guard rifle corps...30 guard rifle
div..didnt bother trying to count the cav.div or tank corps.

< Message edited by Ice -- 9/9/2016 12:27:18 AM >


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RE: Guards conversion, isolated and way behind lines - 9/9/2016 1:25:40 AM   
Michael T


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That's nuts.

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RE: Guards conversion, isolated and way behind lines - 9/9/2016 8:37:07 AM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ice

You know I am going to ask...what are the limits & is it just recent?
Just a quick count of the front @ Nov 42..my opposition has 49 guard rifle corps...30 guard rifle
div..didnt bother trying to count the cav.div or tank corps.


there are two complications here.

The limit affects how many RD you can convert to Gds as a result of combat. It increases, if I recall, every Jan till Jan 44. There is no limit on cav divs/corps (they can all be Gds).

Now there are two ways to break the limit. One is by design, the other is a bit *mheh*. Once you have your 1942 quota (and this is fairly low) what you can do is create extra Gds rifle divisions by converting airborne to Gds rifle. If you've been careful with your airborne in 1941 (and since most people now have a no air drop rule this is easy to do), that should give you give you 10-12 over the cap (of course you will be caught out in Jan 43 but by that stage the mid-42 crisis is over).

The *mheh* option is to exploit that the Gds quota is a % of all your RDs - regardless of their strength. So a slightly gamey stunt is to raise a load, set their ToE at 20% (so they take up little manpower/arms) and of course this increases the divisor ... giving you a higher number of Gds formations.

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RE: Guards conversion, isolated and way behind lines - 9/9/2016 10:05:14 PM   
Icier


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Thanks loki100 & thanks for the *mhem*...do you know what is the percentage? The way I see it is that
there is no limit on the number of Red army units, so conversely the implication is that there is really no limit on Guard units, except for what you have mentioned.

I dont play Russians often, so when you mentioned the airborne, I went back to rules & got this little gem..

Guards Rifle Division (March 1942): Three Airborne Brigades can buildup into a rifle division, which will automatically be given Guards status. Airborne brigades may not buildup with any other type of unit.

So, from March onwards you you just keep raising airborne & then convert them to guards with only, if I read it right, **initial cost**& no further cost for creating division/corps.



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RE: Guards conversion, isolated and way behind lines - 9/9/2016 10:15:01 PM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ice

Thanks loki100 & thanks for the *mhem*...do you know what is the percentage? The way I see it is that
there is no limit on the number of Red army units, so conversely the implication is that there is really no limit on Guard units, except for what you have mentioned.

I dont play Russians often, so when you mentioned the airborne, I went back to rules & got this little gem..

Guards Rifle Division (March 1942): Three Airborne Brigades can buildup into a rifle division, which will automatically be given Guards status. Airborne brigades may not buildup with any other type of unit.

So, from March onwards you you just keep raising airborne & then convert them to guards with only, if I read it right, **initial cost**& no further cost for creating division/corps.




its not quite this bad - you can't raise new airborne. You start with 4 (5?) airborne corps and should be able to save most of them, and then in early 42 you get a batch more (8-10). These start with low morale etc so are basically useless in any case till late in 1942. Most players will flip them to Gds rifle divs but if you let them wait till Jan 43 you can generate a Gds Airborne division. These have no air drop capacity but can be powerful - I've seen them at around 8cv by mid-44 but the cost is that they cannot be used in Corps formation.

I'd expect to lose a few brigades in 1941 and then if we were playing with airdrops another small number in early 1942. With the new habit of agreeing no airdrops all that lot should convert to some sort of Gds division

I've really stopped playing WiTE so have lost the thread a bit on the %s but if I recall it ends up around 40% by Jan 44.

But yes you can spam baseline rifle divisions and thus create the capacity for Gds. By late 43 most Soviet players have run out of things to do with admin pts so its a possible trick, esp if you use the 20% ToE setting so they do not really consume much manpower/artillery etc.

One reason why those who have been demanding the Red Army fields the historical number of 5-6,000 Rifle Divisions compared to the WiTE norm of tending to fill out to 9,000 may want to rethink the consequences if they get their way.

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RE: Guards conversion, isolated and way behind lines - 9/9/2016 10:15:42 PM   
charlie0311

 

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Hi,

Sov may not build new airborne units.

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RE: Guards conversion, isolated and way behind lines - 9/10/2016 1:06:36 AM   
Icier


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I'd expect to lose a few brigades in 1941 and then if we were playing with airdrops another small n
One reason why those who have been demanding the Red Army fields the historical number of 5-6,000 Rifle Divisions compared to the WiTE norm of tending to fill out to 9,000 may want to rethink the consequences if they get their way.
[/quote]

You mean 5 - 600 rifle div.

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RE: Guards conversion, isolated and way behind lines - 10/10/2016 8:29:21 PM   
M60A3TTS


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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

There are limits, and conversion to Guards starts late in 1941.


When does conversion start, September 41?

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RE: Guards conversion, isolated and way behind lines - 10/10/2016 10:07:30 PM   
Michael T


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That's when it started for me.

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RE: Guards conversion, isolated and way behind lines - 10/11/2016 3:38:32 AM   
Hagar

 

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Guard conversion doesn't hinge on a particular date, but rather victories vs preset conditions. Having said that, it will probably begin somewhere Sept/Oct 1941.

quote:

9.2.2.1. GUARDS NUMBER LIMITS
While not exact, there are limits to the number of each type of unit (infantry, armour, mountain,
artillery, etc.) that may become guards units. The size of the unit may impact the percentages,
with larger units having more impact than smaller ones. There is no limit on the number of
cavalry or airborne combat units that may become guards units.
The limit for motorized type units is approximately 35 percent. For non-motorized type units,
the approximate percentage limit varies by year as follows:
1941 - 5 percent
January - June 1942 -10 percent
July - December 1942 - 17 percent
1943 - 25 percent
1944 - 30 percent

9.2.2.2. GUARDS STATUS CONDITIONS
In order for a unit to become a guards unit, the three following conditions must be met:
Condition One:
For non-motorized units, the unit’s number of wins plus the year modifier must be greater or
equal to 8 plus random(8).(see glossary for definition of random(x))
For motorized units, the unit’s number of wins plus the year modifier must be greater or equal
to 12 plus random(12)
For Corps HQ units, the unit’s number of wins plus the year modifier must be greater or equal
to 15 plus random(15)
167
For Army HQ units, the unit’s number of wins plus the year modifier must be greater or equal
to 75 plus random(75)
Condition Two:
For all units, the unit’s number of wins plus the year modifier must be greater than 9
Condition Three:
For all units, the unit’s number of wins plus the year modifier must be greater than 2 plus the
unit’s number of losses
Year Modifier: The Year modifier is 3 in 1941, 2 in 1942 and 1 in 1943-45.


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RE: Guards conversion, isolated and way behind lines - 10/11/2016 8:42:33 PM   
Icier


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

I am still in September 1941 and have 17 Gd Rd and 1 Gd CavD.


Just finished reading Hagar post...Michael your army must be huge. Out of curiosity, what are the
TOE's of your units.

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RE: Guards conversion, isolated and way behind lines - 10/12/2016 9:24:38 PM   
sillyflower


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I'm sure you can't get gds units before Sept '41. I had several eligible in the very early stages of a current GC game but not converting. Then 1 turn I had quite a few.

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RE: Guards conversion, isolated and way behind lines - 10/12/2016 9:30:32 PM   
Icier


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re-reading Hagar's post of the rules..just says you can have Guard units in 41.

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RE: Guards conversion, isolated and way behind lines - 10/12/2016 10:13:47 PM   
Michael T


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My OOB at end T20 is 5.4 million. TOE of most units 80% to 100%.

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RE: Guards conversion, isolated and way behind lines - 10/12/2016 11:13:14 PM   
Icier


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So u out number the Germans by 2 million men ( almost 2 to 1 Odds ) & winter hasn't struck yet, where the German Army loses without combat (wastage) approx 40000 per turn...as we say down south
Sheeeeeeeeeeeeet!


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RE: Guards conversion, isolated and way behind lines - 10/15/2016 10:53:20 PM   
M60A3TTS


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I just got a guards rifle division with 5 wins and 5 losses in the first September 41 turn. Don't know how that makes sense. I thought the minimum was 8 wins with a random die roll of up to +3.

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RE: Guards conversion, isolated and way behind lines - 10/15/2016 11:01:23 PM   
Stelteck

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

I just got a guards rifle division with 5 wins and 5 losses in the first September 41 turn. Don't know how that makes sense. I thought the minimum was 8 wins with a random die roll of up to +3.


I think that a minimum number of conversions are forced by the scenario.

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RE: Guards conversion, isolated and way behind lines - 10/16/2016 8:47:28 AM   
Denniss

 

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Mild Winter probably reduces the number of required wins but AFAIK unit should have more wins than losses.

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