Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Heavy Industry and Armaments - Do I have enough?

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> The War Room >> Heavy Industry and Armaments - Do I have enough? Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Heavy Industry and Armaments - Do I have enough? - 8/18/2016 12:51:05 AM   
MButtsworth

 

Posts: 380
Joined: 7/4/2014
Status: offline
Hello
It is 1942 and I have 188 Heavy Industry and 299 Armaments.
Is that enough to supply my army with the weapons they need?

(no shortage of planes or tanks)

Thanks

Matthew Buttsworth
Post #: 1
RE: Heavy Industry and Armaments - Do I have enough? - 8/18/2016 5:15:28 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
TTTTTTRRRRRRRRUUUUUUCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKSSS

is all that matters.

Historically Russia could only supply 40% of needed trucks, in other words without Western Powers free trucks they would have lost in 42.

2by3 has done a great job or modeling this one area.

Stalin sucked at Logistics as did General Z, thankfully WA saved them from themselves. Tanks without trucks to move fuel/ammo are useless.

Ect ect.

Choas easly defeated me in 43 because he knows how to build right Russian armies - based on trucks.

Brian who has done far better historically then chaos in 41/42 is hoping for a win in early 45, WHY?




< Message edited by Pelton -- 8/18/2016 5:22:58 AM >


_____________________________

Beta Tester WitW & WitE

(in reply to MButtsworth)
Post #: 2
RE: Heavy Industry and Armaments - Do I have enough? - 8/18/2016 2:58:30 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MButtsworth

Hello
It is 1942 and I have 188 Heavy Industry and 299 Armaments.
Is that enough to supply my army with the weapons they need?

(no shortage of planes or tanks)

Thanks

Matthew Buttsworth


This is best players have come up with.

As a German player if I can get the Russian player under these numbers its a win 90% of the time with 10% draws in that mix.

HVY: 236 Need to get under: 200 or destroy 36+
AP: 370 Need to get under: 300 or destroy 70+
Fuel: 149 Need to get under: 140 or capture 9+

If German player can get 50 arm and 20 hvy that will slow Red 2.0 and could be enough to get a win in 42.

If I can get Russian down under 215 hvy and 320 arm I will most likely get a draw.

If your getting Russian under 200/300 you probably have a really good manpower crunch going on also which will have more of an impact then all the other 3 combined.

My game vs Brian is all about trucks as I only destoried 19/19 and did little to effect his manpower pools.

I think he will win but be close unless I do a major screw up.

Truck management is HUGE on the Russian side.



_____________________________

Beta Tester WitW & WitE

(in reply to MButtsworth)
Post #: 3
RE: Heavy Industry and Armaments - Do I have enough? - 8/19/2016 3:49:25 AM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1868
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline
You can search threads....I did a write up on the minimum Soviet industry awhile back--6 to 12 months ago....If I remember right its like 180 heavy industry is the rock bottom for Soviets...and as many armaments as you can save.

With 200 heavy and 300 armaments you are fine basically. anything more is gravy....if you manage your army right you can get away with less heavy industry as well.....armaments mainly just helps you rebuild and up gun the soviet army faster.

(in reply to Peltonx)
Post #: 4
RE: Heavy Industry and Armaments - Do I have enough? - 8/19/2016 10:28:05 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

You can search threads....I did a write up on the minimum Soviet industry awhile back--6 to 12 months ago....If I remember right its like 180 heavy industry is the rock bottom for Soviets...and as many armaments as you can save.

With 200 heavy and 300 armaments you are fine basically. anything more is gravy....if you manage your army right you can get away
with less heavy industry as well.....armaments mainly just helps you rebuild and up gun the soviet army faster.

That is the key factor the speed at which 2.0 is built. That is a HUGE just as most don't manage things anyways near right like yourself

180 is not enough to support a large army down the road.

I believe loki did a very detailed thread on this and going on my past exp and others it proves out right 99% of the time.

Being fine and building 2.0 slowly is a draw or worse.

Loki's thread is not just about numbers, but also based on game data.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 8/19/2016 10:29:58 AM >


_____________________________

Beta Tester WitW & WitE

(in reply to chaos45)
Post #: 5
RE: Heavy Industry and Armaments - Do I have enough? - 8/19/2016 10:34:13 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
good thread here


If you kill enough stuff in 1942, the Red Army will collapse, or be so crippled as to not ever be able to reach Berlin in time, giving the German player a win on points. It's been done in several AARs. And reductions in manpower and industry in 1941 help create the conditions for said collapse.

Then it is a question of getting ahead of the Soviet AP and replacement curve. A Soviet player taking in 60 APs and 100k manpower a turn (about what he'll get after a very strong German 41) has some real limits to content with.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 7/11/2011 4:50:01 AM >


http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2855266&mpage=1&key=armament�

more

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2785981&mpage=1&key=

< Message edited by Pelton -- 8/19/2016 10:40:03 AM >


_____________________________

Beta Tester WitW & WitE

(in reply to Peltonx)
Post #: 6
RE: Heavy Industry and Armaments - Do I have enough? - 8/19/2016 10:44:16 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
Another thing few have considered is all the free units Russians get back - is it a good thing or bad logisticly?

If not managed right I think it could be a ball and chain.

_____________________________

Beta Tester WitW & WitE

(in reply to Peltonx)
Post #: 7
RE: Heavy Industry and Armaments - Do I have enough? - 8/19/2016 2:06:49 PM   
BrianG

 

Posts: 4284
Joined: 3/6/2012
Status: offline
in my game V Pelton, he had bad mud turns late summer 41. otherwise he would have captured a lot more.

I disagree on one point about our game.

My truck situation is not good at all.
Production and Armaments and Manpower are huge though.

< Message edited by BrianG -- 8/19/2016 2:07:31 PM >

(in reply to Peltonx)
Post #: 8
RE: Heavy Industry and Armaments - Do I have enough? - 8/19/2016 3:16:59 PM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1868
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline
Again as to heavy industry---I spoke up on Loki's thread as well....the math is all in black and white in the rules on how much each point of each industry supplies.

180 heavy industry will supply something like an 8 Million+ man soviet army from 1943 on. Also if you dont have 8 Million men before 1943--unlikely for most soviet games you will have a stockpile of supplies already built up from the earlier war years. So 180 heavy industry is fine for the Soviets to maintain and most likely win the war.

If I get a chance to play the game over I will gladly sacrifice more heavy industry to rail out more armaments. As I saved far to much heavy industry in our game. Also a big chunk of supply use can be fortification building which from mid to late 43 on the soviet player really wont need to worry about as much so if they do hit a supply crunch from heavy just turn down fort building %

Trucks are vastly important----but in all honesty how you play and what units you build as the Soviets has more importance on this number than your factories.....The fact that Soviet truck factories drop to only 50% production after 1941 makes losing some really not that bad over the long haul---conserving your trucks via short supply lines, not over building mechanized units, and using non-motorized units to do movement in bad weather all play a bigger role than your actual factories.-----you will have to rely almost entirely on Lend lease truck increases to keep your truck pool going. So how you play and conserve your trucks is really the most important aspect on trucks.

Also on Soviet truck use, your truck use is basically tied to how many/much supply and fuel you use each turn. So the more you move and attack and the more requirement for trucks you have. So if you let the Soviet army stay mostly stationary for a turn or two and fill up 100% on supplies and fuel it will drop your truck requirements a ton---again you can reduce fort building to conserve some supply use---I didnt do this as it wasnt needed in my game but its a way to conserve resources if you are vastly short......

As to army size and free units-----you dont need 10 Million men to beat the Germans.....so you are supplying and fueling millions more Soviets than you actually need---this in turn takes and burns trucks. From late 1943 on I was disbanding excess Soviet units to reduce my supply/truck load requirements. Airforce esp is a place you can save on trucks.

(in reply to BrianG)
Post #: 9
RE: Heavy Industry and Armaments - Do I have enough? - 8/29/2016 10:02:53 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Again as to heavy industry---I spoke up on Loki's thread as well....the math is all in black and white in the rules on how much
each point of each industry supplies.

180 heavy industry will supply something like an 8 Million+ man soviet army from 1943 on.
Also if you dont have 8 Million men before 1943--unlikely for most soviet games you will have a stockpile of supplies
already built up from the earlier war years. So 180 heavy industry is fine for the Soviets to maintain and most likely win the war.

If I get a chance to play the game over I will gladly sacrifice more heavy industry to rail out more armaments.
As I saved far to much heavy industry in our game. Also a big chunk of supply use can be fortification building
which from mid to late 43 on the soviet player really wont need to worry about as much so if they do hit a supply crunch
from heavy just turn down fort building %

Trucks are vastly important----but in all honesty how you play and what units you build as the Soviets has more importance on this
number than your factories.....The fact that Soviet truck factories drop to only 50% production after 1941 makes losing some
really not that bad over the long haul---conserving your trucks via short supply lines, not over building mechanized units, and
using non-motorized units to do movement in bad weather all play a bigger role than your actual factories.-----you will have to
rely almost entirely on Lend lease truck increases to keep your truck pool going. So how you play and conserve your trucks is
really the most important aspect on trucks.

Also on Soviet truck use, your truck use is basically tied to how many/much supply and fuel you use each turn. So the more you
move and attack and the more requirement for trucks you have. So if you let the Soviet army stay mostly stationary for a turn or
two and fill up 100% on supplies and fuel it will drop your truck requirements a ton---again you can reduce fort building to
conserve some supply use---I didnt do this as it wasnt needed in my game but its a way to conserve resources if you are vastly
short......

As to army size and free units-----you dont need 10 Million men to beat the Germans.....so you are supplying and fueling millions
more Soviets than you actually need---this in turn takes and burns trucks. From late 1943 on I was disbanding excess Soviet units
to reduce my supply/truck load requirements. Airforce esp is a place you can save on trucks.


Again your missing allot of small picture detail.

The game is about building Red Army 2.0 as quickly as possible for Russian player and slowing down 2.0 as German player.

Which is why these numbers hold true in game not in theory, you hit these numbers and game is over.

HVY: 236 Need to get under: 200 or destroy 36+
AP: 370 Need to get under: 300 or destroy 70+
Fuel: 149 Need to get under: 140 or capture 9+

Things moved do not magicly start producing the next turn which is something you like to over look. Hitting these #s in 41
have a snowball effect going into 42,43 and even 44.That's a huge # of lost production, sure you can try to make 2.0 smaller
but that also means less attacks per turn aka less losses which in turn
means bloated German OOB - even with moral hits in 43 German Army is still strong.

I have found that even these #s make a big difference over time.

HVY: destroyed 20+
AP: destroyed 40+

Enough for a draw in most cases unless someone is using a fuel exploit.

Most people are horrible at truck management and I mean horrible they simply don't understand the logistics system.

I have played WitW enough to see that most people don't understand that system also, WA's have so much play in logistics
system is nuts really.

WitE and WitW is about pocketing units if your not it requires much more supplies ect to kill the same number of men and you lose more men and burn more supplies.

Pockets over come all logistics issue's.

Everything is tied together, its not this one area or that area of game mechanics.

A little thing in allot of areas add up to big issues over time.





< Message edited by Pelton -- 8/29/2016 10:11:21 AM >


_____________________________

Beta Tester WitW & WitE

(in reply to chaos45)
Post #: 10
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> The War Room >> Heavy Industry and Armaments - Do I have enough? Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.125