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RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) ... - 5/27/2018 7:24:03 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

Beatty was admittedly rash or more politely aggressive -- that was sort of his trademark, and the reason he was ultimately elevated to the command of the GF -- but I feel that the loss of battlecruisers at Jutland couldn't be laid at his feet. He *engaged* as all British commanders were expected to do, and he had superior numbers. The British BCs were particularly thin on armor compared to the much more stalwart German BCs, and that was by design. The cordite handling flaw just had not been perceived by the British to be the major problem it turned out to be (compared to similar German problem realized due to Seydlitz at Dogger Bank). And even after the BCs at Jutland, Hood was lost due to a similar weakness. But then the British tend to condemn any sea commander who doesn't win regardless of the reason. That is the effect of their tradition of naval dominance.
warspite1

I don't have a problem with aggressive commanders. The criticism of Beatty goes much, much deeper than the fact he lost three battlecruisers under his command - as unfortunate as that was and for which he can take a share of the blame since the British knew of the problem from an episode with (HMS Kent?) earlier in the war.

His inability to learn anything from earlier engagements and his refusal to remove his clearly unfit Flat-Lieutenant were costly errors, but his whole handling of the 5th Battle Squadron - from the time the four ships fell under his command, his deployment of those ships and then his handling of the squadron once at sea with his battlecruiser squadron was crucial to what happened at Jutland.

As for the ships, the German ships were well constructed and better armoured, but there is nothing to suggest that (had it not been for the cordite handling issue) the British ships would have been less likely to survive. Indeed a study at Southampton University(?) showed this not to be the case.

They compared Queen Mary with Seydlitz. Queen Mary had just one water tight bulkhead less (despite the oft repeated line that the German ships were so much better compartmentalised). They then used a computer program and a mock up of the Queen Mary's hull, and subjected the hull to exactly the same damage (including the torpedo) that Seydlitz suffered (the Germans photographed every hit taken by their ships) to see if she would sink. The Queen Mary, like the Seydlitz, did not sink. Norman Friedman (who knows something about ships!) said that had it not been for the explosions, it is likely the British would have lost no battlecruisers that day....

As for the loss of Hood, yes another battlecruiser, yes a catastrophic explosion - but the circumstances were quite different - e.g. the construction of the ships and the tightening up of cordite handling. Hood's loss was more to do with advances in gunnery and the greater distances involved that made her - with her weak deck armour - vulnerable to plunging shell fire.




< Message edited by warspite1 -- 5/27/2018 7:40:16 PM >


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RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) ... - 5/27/2018 9:42:41 PM   
Capitaine

 

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Yes, well, somehow the British doing their own "tests" and concluding their ships are just as bloody good as the German's doesn't ring too credible to me. Just saying.

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RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) ... - 5/27/2018 10:34:05 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

Yes, well, somehow the British doing their own "tests" and concluding their ships are just as bloody good as the German's doesn't ring too credible to me. Just saying.
warspite1

'The British doing their own tests' - why do you assume that because someone is of one nationality they are not interested in the truth; only to show others of the same nationality are the best?

'their ships are just as bloody good as the German's'???? - but that's not what these scientists set out to prove and not what they did prove.

But no problem, if you choose to believe the experiment was false and the scientists were lying, if you choose to believe that the respected American naval historian Norman Friedman doesn't know what he's talking about, if you choose to believe HMS Hood was lost for the same reason as the battlecruisers at Jutland and if you believe Beatty was a worthy Admiral then that's your view.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 5/27/2018 10:44:04 PM >


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RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) ... - 5/28/2018 7:21:10 AM   
Orm


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This has been interesting. Maybe we can continue this in another thread, and get this thread back to the awesome Collectors Edition?

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RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) ... - 5/29/2018 11:44:45 PM   
rkr1958


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Are CL's now part of Ships in Flames and no longer a separate optional?

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RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) ... - 5/30/2018 3:13:55 AM   
paulderynck


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CLiF is still a separate option. There's a table in the rules giving varying ASW values depending on whether you play Classic, SiF, or SiF + CLiF.

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 5/30/2018 3:14:20 AM >


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RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) ... - 5/30/2018 7:35:29 AM   
Joseignacio


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Paul, are you aware of the latest rules of WIF? As usual, I don't have time to be up to date of all the updates and changes, so I tend to believe what I am shown in the rules, but the guy who knows more usually omits whatever info doesn't suit him.

I mean, in the ASW values he showed me rules/a table with varying ASW values, but he never mentioned that it depended in the version we were playing, and that may be very important...

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RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) ... - 5/30/2018 10:52:23 PM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Paul, are you aware of the latest rules of WIF? As usual, I don't have time to be up to date of all the updates and changes, so I tend to believe what I am shown in the rules, but the guy who knows more usually omits whatever info doesn't suit him.

I mean, in the ASW values he showed me rules/a table with varying ASW values, but he never mentioned that it depended in the version we were playing, and that may be very important...

I didn't know about the incomplete conquest variable roll for survivors so we can all learn something at some point or another.

Here is the ASW table from CE. Quite variable depending on option chosen although the designer said the objective is to keep net ASW generally the same across all options.

'WiF' is WiF Classic which has CL counters. If you play CLiF, I think you only do so in addition to SiF (not positive, never play CLiF myself) so with CLiF, I think the Classic CLs are set aside. So choices would be:
Play Classic and use WiF line.
Play SiF and use the SiF line.
Play SiF plus CLiF and only use the CLiF line.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 5/30/2018 10:56:52 PM >


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RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) ... - 5/31/2018 1:21:04 AM   
rkr1958


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck



Ok, thanks! What was throwing me was that CL line in both WiF and CliF option 6. I guess WiF includes CLs?


Interesting to note that no matter what option is played BB's not longer contribute to ASW and that CP's now, regardless of year and country contribute 1/5 ASW (round down) versus 1/2 in 1942 and later for CW and USA.

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RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) ... - 5/31/2018 1:38:53 AM   
BrianJH


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rkr1958


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck



Ok, thanks! What was throwing me was that CL line in both WiF and CliF option 6. I guess WiF includes CLs?


Interesting to note that no matter what option is played BB's not longer contribute to ASW and that CP's now, regardless of year and country contribute 1/5 ASW (round down) versus 1/2 in 1942 and later for CW and USA.



Just be aware that there is an error in that table.

From the errata sheet

11.5.10, ASW Factors chart – When playing CliF option 6, each CA only ever has 1 ASW factor (not 4 in ’43 as shown in the chart). Please note the chart on the West Europe map is correct.

Brian


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RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) ... - 5/31/2018 2:16:31 AM   
paulderynck


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Good point. I saw that post somewhere. The CA line with CLiF should be 1-1-1. Sorry for the misinformation.

And... yes, Classic WiF has CL units.


< Message edited by paulderynck -- 5/31/2018 2:21:58 AM >


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RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) ... - 5/31/2018 2:19:01 AM   
paulderynck


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Here is the corrected table:






Attachment (1)

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RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) ... - 5/31/2018 7:56:16 AM   
Joseignacio


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Thanks a lot. I had seen the table (my mate showed it to me when we were doing naval combat) but I was thinking of convoys ASW (variable) power. I misunderstood the comment, as per the table it's 1-1-1 (not variable).

But it's kind of messy , thanks for the comments and the errata.

Note: Sure we can learn from each other as far as rules are still new, I guess later you'll soon get far before me because so many changes demoralize me and I tend not to read the whole rulebook ¡again! and read only the specific rule for the phase that we have doubts about. Hence I find many unwanted surprises...

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 5/31/2018 7:59:25 AM >

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RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) ... - 5/31/2018 10:37:06 PM   
rkr1958


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quote:

Losses inflicted by the SUB side may be any included naval unit if the SUB player spends 3 surprise points. Otherwise every odd (1st, 3rd, 5th etc.) loss must be convoy points (CoiF option 7: including ASW, see 22.16); and every even loss must be either convoy points (CoiF option 7: including ASW), a CV or an SCS in the 0 sea-box section (owner’s choice). Once there are no further convoys to suffer losses, all remaining losses inflicted by the subs are ignored.


"every even loss must be either convoy points (CoiFoption 7: including ASW), a CV or an SCS in the 0 sea-box section (owner’s choice)" -- Interesting ... now it appears that the convoy defender can take ships as losses instead of CP's if he has escorts in the 0-box and so chooses.

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RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) ... - 5/31/2018 11:37:12 PM   
paulderynck


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It's more of a change than that. Each result affects 3 CPs and CPs can be damaged (and then possibly abort before being damaged again). So you can get into some pretty interesting choices as both the defender choosing the even numbered results or either player deciding on the use of surprise points to choose a target.

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RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) ... - 6/1/2018 4:11:50 AM   
rkr1958


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

It's more of a change than that. Each result affects 3 CPs and CPs can be damaged (and then possibly abort before being damaged again). So you can get into some pretty interesting choices as both the defender choosing the even numbered results or either player deciding on the use of surprise points to choose a target.

So a D would now damage 3 CP's instead of sinking 1? And an X would sink 3 instead of 2? What are the consequences of a damaged CP?

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RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) ... - 6/1/2018 6:32:33 AM   
paulderynck


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Yes.

They get aborted at the end of combat or sunk with a second 'D' like any other naval unit (no saving rolls though, all results are automatically applied to CPs). BTW the '3 CPs per' is SiF. In Classic, it is 5 per which many don't like considering LOS and low capacity CP chains. Some Classic players add SiF CPs only!

They cost 1 each to build and take 4 turns like always. Repair takes 2 turns and cost is One BP for repairing 1 or 2, Two BPs for repairing 3, 4 or 5. 'Economies of scale' is the the WiFZen for that I guess (although really the designer wanted greater parallel between Classic and SiF).

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 6/1/2018 6:35:41 AM >


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RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) ... - 6/2/2018 10:19:54 AM   
AndyG1

 

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Received my Deluxe Collectors Edition just over a week ago and am blown away by the quality of the mounted maps, detailing on the counter sheets, and the Rules and Guide plus tables. Absolutely the best quality board game I’ve seen.

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RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) ... - 6/8/2018 8:27:25 PM   
warspite1


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https://www.a-d-g.com.au/blogs/news/world-in-flames-collectors-edition-draft-countersheet-55

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RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) ... - 6/16/2018 5:51:53 AM   
Grotius


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One aspect of the boardgame that I'm enjoying is allocation of convoy points (and tankers, using Convoys in Flames). The tankers add interest (for me anyway), and the production/convoy chain is easy to visualize with the maps and counters right in front of me.

Right now I'm working on France's initial naval move (in Global War), and I think I can ship every resource except the New Caledonia one. But to ship the oil from Iraq to France, I'd have to convert for convoys to two tankers; I'm debating whether to do that or just save the oil in Lebanon or Egypt, freeing up 4 CPs potentially to hide in New Caledonia (to become Free French, one hopes).

< Message edited by Grotius -- 6/16/2018 5:52:46 AM >


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RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) ... - 6/16/2018 5:43:59 PM   
paulderynck


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You can use the CPs that will RTB to New Caledonia as part of a chain that ships Australian resources to Mexico (for onward shipment by rail to Canada), but in the first two turns the CW can get by with one less resource and still build max, so with a couple more CPs (toward and into the Caribbean) that chain can ship one Australian resource to Canada and the New Caledonia resource to the west coast of France.

You can set up French and CW CPs "knowing" that they can cooperate in resource transport by the end of the turn. You can't start out with anything lent, but you can certainly treat the CW & Fr CPs as a combined pool.

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RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) ... - 6/17/2018 12:31:31 AM   
Grotius


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Thanks for your reply. I kinda figured I'd be deciding on French and CW convoys in tandem. For me, it's easier to do this using the boardgame than MWIF, as I can go back and forth as I please. I know it's possible to do that too in MWIF, but I've always found the convoy/production UI a bit confusing, so I tend to say "close enough" and move on. With the boardgame, I'm being more methodical.

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RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) ... - 6/23/2018 7:18:30 AM   
Jagdtiger14


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Does anyone know if in WiF8 a neutral US is allowed to send resources and BP's to WAllies/USSR after the US entry option is selected?
Thanks


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RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) ... - 6/25/2018 11:29:30 PM   
paulderynck


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Which option?

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RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) ... - 6/26/2018 7:25:53 AM   
Joseignacio


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I guess:

quote:

27. Lend lease to western Allies (Ge/It 9)* - The US can’t give build points (see 13.6.4) to the Commonwealth or France until you choose this option. In future turns the US may give up to 5 build points a turn (see 13.6.4) to each of the CW and France (unlimited while the USA is at war with Germany). US convoy points can’t be used to transport these build points while the US is a neutral major power.
You may only choose this option if US entry option 15 has been chosen in a prior turn.

28. Truman committee formed (5)* - The US can’t produce 4-turn LNDs while neutral until this option is chosen. The US is no longer restricted in the number or class of any units she builds (see 13.6) each turn. The US may now destroy (TiF option 31: and disband) units (see 4.3) while neutral.
You may only choose this option if US entry options 12 and 22 have already been chosen in prior turns.
29. North Atlantic escorts (Ge/It 8)* - After you choose this option and while neutral, up to 5 US CVs and/or SCS in the 0 section of the North Atlantic sea area may take part in any combat round in which Allied convoys are included, while still reamining neutral. There is no US entry effect for fighting.
You may only choose this option if US entry option 11 has been chosen in a prior turn.
30. Lend lease to USSR (Ge/It 11)* - The Allies can’t give or receive build points (see 13.6.4) to or from the USSR until you choose this option. In future turns the US, CW and/or France may give or receive 1 build point each per turn to or from the USSR while the USSR is at war with any Axis major power. This increases to 5 each per turn while Germany and the USSR are at war and unlimited while the US is also at war with Germany. US convoy points can’t be used to transport these build points while the US is neutral.
You may only choose this option if US entry option 19 has been chosen in a prior turn.


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RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) ... - 6/26/2018 11:38:09 PM   
paulderynck


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That answer makes sense (along with #15 & #19, but excluding #28 and #29). It's the question that doesn't.

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 6/26/2018 11:41:11 PM >


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RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) ... - 6/28/2018 7:44:48 AM   
BrianJH


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Well actually, I think there's confusion with this part.

Compare US Entry Option from the WifCE rule book:

quote:

#15. Resources to western Allies (Ge/It 6) – The US can’t give resources to the Commonwealth or France until you choose this option. In future turns the US can give up to 5 resources per turn each to the CW and France (unlimited while the USA is at war with Germany). US convoy points can’t be used to transport these resources unless US entry option 38 is chosen.


together with

quote:

#32. US refutes naval war zones (9) - The USA may use its own convoy points to ship any resources and/or builds points that the USA is lend-leasing to any Allied major power. Any US convoy points that could be carrying resources to an Allied major power may be attacked by any active Axis units even if they are not at war with the USA.


and

quote:

#38. Arm merchantmen (9)* - After you choose this option and while neutral, up to 5 US CVs and/or SCS in the 0 section of any sea area may take part in any combat round in which Allied convoys are included, while still remaining neutral. There is no US entry effect for the naval combat itself. Prerequisite: US entry option 29.


So if I have chosen options #15 and #32, but not #38. Can the western allies use US convoys to ship lent US resources, or not?

#15 says you can't, as you need to have chosen #38, yet #32 by itself, says you can.

Brian.


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RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) ... - 6/28/2018 11:27:59 PM   
paulderynck


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You are quoting from RAW8 and that is all under discussion ATM. My opinion - RAW8 tried to be more precise but muddied the waters by mistyping option 38 in place of option 32.

Read RAW7 and you'll see that neither 32 or 38 is mentioned in 15, 19, 27 and 30. It was left to the reader to read 32 and actually figure it all out.

As written RAW8 has a problem because you still can't use US CPs after passing both options 32 and 38.

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RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) ... - 6/30/2018 3:21:44 AM   
BrianJH


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
As written RAW8 has a problem because you still can't use US CPs after passing both options 32 and 38.


Really!? Paul, you've got me interested as to which rule says that?

Is it this one..

quote:

end of Rule 13.6.1 just before Search and Seizure

Neutral major powers may only transport resources and
build points for, and/or contribute to the convoy chain of, another major
power if the rules specifically allow it (see 5.1, and 13.3.2, US entry
options 9, 17, 27 and 30).


And are you suggesting, because the rule references in the brackets, leaves out option 32 (and option 38), that they don't apply to this rule when choosing these options? My interpretation would be that the rule would still apply to options #32, and #38, and any other relevant rule, despite its omission.

Or am I missing something else?

Brian.



< Message edited by BrianJH -- 6/30/2018 3:23:49 AM >

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RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) ... - 6/30/2018 5:21:12 PM   
paulderynck


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I shall attempt elucidation on the matter. (as my statement about still can't use was misleading - should have said "still can't use after passing 32")

RAW7 = no US CP usage (except for China) until Option 32 is passed. Option 32 says the US may use its own CPs. So, reasonably, you need to pass Option 32 and then all lends can be carried by US CPs. But the chain must be entirely US CPs end-to-end because a neutral and an active can't share CP pipelines. You could have FREX a parallel CP pipeline of 2 CW and 2 US CPs in each sea zone, taking 4 BPs to Russia once Russia is active.

RAW8 = by stating option 38 is needed (in 15, 19, 27 and 30) before you can use US CPs; the rules have been significantly muddied. 38 doesn't say anything about using US CPs. So to do so, do you need to pass 32 and 38 or just 38? What good would 32 be by itself? If you passed only 38 you'd likely have arguments when you started using US CPs for those lends. This is why I think it was an attempted clarification but there's a typo of '38' in place of '32'.

In any event, you still can't "hand-off" those lends within a CP pipeline, while the US is neutral. Not sure everyone realizes that.

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 6/30/2018 5:30:05 PM >


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