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Request for gameplay tips/my feeback - 6/17/2016 2:00:35 PM   
Darojax


Posts: 416
Joined: 4/29/2011
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Hi.

Been playing a lot of War in the East and now been playing a few multiplayer games as the Allies in War in the West, and I have to say it is a frustrating venture! I played the Torch to Tunisia scenario, and I also recently resigned a 43-45 game due to lack of progress. Here is what is killing me:

1. The defensive terrain and fortification multipliers. The defending side is easily able to just dig in and get extremely high defensive bonuses (both in Italy and northern France). I have more troops, but that doesn't matter because:

2. The 3 unit stacking limit. It doesn't matter that I have a lot more men and units, because I am unable to focus them enough to breach through extremely high defensive values (which are all over). Even setting units as reserve in the rear doesn't help much, since you never know if they will be committed or not.

If anyone can give me any good tips to turn around my allied gameplay in a big way, that would be much appreciated, thanks! Or I fear I will give it up entirely.

Also, I have to say that I am not a fan of the current air management system (compared to War in the East which was much more functional in my humble opinion). There is way too much micromanagement to be done, and even if you let the AI manage everything, it will still make a mess of things. Also, I don't understand why I keep losing every single air battle vs the luftwaffe in the Torch to Tunisia scenario, it is as if we are facing gods in the sky! The germans shoot down 30 of my fighters while I shoot down none, repeatedly! And I don't think it is me doing something wrong, because leaving the air to the AI gives the exact same results. Somethings off here.

Finally I have to say that despite the above, the War in the East and West are still among the most awesome strategy games I have ever played, so thankyou for that.

regards

Dan

< Message edited by Darojax -- 6/17/2016 2:04:24 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Request for gameplay tips/my feeback - 6/17/2016 2:03:15 PM   
Helpless


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Joined: 8/27/2004
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quote:

Also, I have to say that I am not a fan of the current air management system (compared to War in the East which was much more functional in my humble opinion).


Air management in the WITW is much more simple than in WITE. WITE has 1/10 of the air assets WITW has and it takes 10x less clicks to arrange similar type of mission density.

_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to Darojax)
Post #: 2
RE: Request for gameplay tips/my feeback - 6/17/2016 2:13:19 PM   
Darojax


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Joined: 4/29/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

Air management in the WITW is much more simple than in WITE. WITE has 1/10 of the air assets WITW has and it takes 10x less clicks to arrange similar type of mission density.


Really? Maybe there is something big I missed in WitE then. In WitW you have to manage fatigue, morale, add pilots, setup ground support, superiority etc etc etc AND etc, but WitE has none of this. All I have to do in WitE is move the airbases and make sure they have adequate airplanes in them.

(in reply to Helpless)
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RE: Request for gameplay tips/my feeback - 6/17/2016 2:15:12 PM   
morvael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless
Air management in the WITW is much more simple than in WITE. WITE has 1/10 of the air assets WITW has and it takes 10x less clicks to arrange similar type of mission density.


In WitE it was possible to ignore air, and focus on ground action. Most people were probably content with just ground support with occasional supply drops and recons. Separate air phase sort of forces the player not to ignore air... But it's understandable that in WitW air plays more prominent role, Allies without their airforce would never win.

(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 4
RE: Request for gameplay tips/my feeback - 6/17/2016 2:19:43 PM   
Helpless


Posts: 15783
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quote:

Really? Maybe there is something big I missed in WitE then. In WitW you have to manage fatigue, morale, add pilots, setup ground support, superiority etc etc etc AND etc, but WitE has none of this. All I have to do in WitE is move the airbases and make sure they have adequate airplanes in them.


Looks like you miss it in both games.

_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to Darojax)
Post #: 5
RE: Request for gameplay tips/my feeback - 6/17/2016 2:22:00 PM   
Darojax


Posts: 416
Joined: 4/29/2011
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I apologize if I with my request for gameplay tips and giving my feedback has offended anyone, it was never my intention. I guess I am not as good a player as some of you, honestly I'm just looking to play the game and have a good time. Just want to remain constructive.

< Message edited by Darojax -- 6/17/2016 2:26:07 PM >

(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 6
RE: Request for gameplay tips/my feeback - 6/17/2016 2:27:26 PM   
Helpless


Posts: 15783
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

In WitE it was possible to ignore air, and focus on ground action. Most people were probably content with just ground support with occasional supply drops and recons. Separate air phase sort of forces the player not to ignore air... But it's understandable that in WitW air plays more prominent role, Allies without their airforce would never win.



With similar approach it is possible to ignore air management in WITW as well, it doesn't sound as valid argument on system manageability.

I played Torch number of times as Allies. Air management took ~5min. with resolution - a lot less than ground part. Btw, I didn't feel Germans being too overpowered.

Strategic bombing adds another big layer which is absent in WITE, but that's what war was all about in 1943 in Northern Europe.

_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 7
RE: Request for gameplay tips/my feeback - 6/17/2016 2:37:54 PM   
Helpless


Posts: 15783
Joined: 8/27/2004
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quote:

I apologize if I with my request for gameplay tips and giving my feedback has offended anyone, it was never my intention. I guess I am not as good a player as some of you, honestly I'm just looking to play the game and have a good time. Just want to remain constructive.


Well, no need to be sorry, feedback is very welcomed, but you seem to misunderstand basic things on the air management as your saying contains incorrect statement. Both games share exactly the same elements - "fatigue, morale, add pilots, setup ground support, superiority etc etc etc". The only difference is that WITW allows you to "record" your missions by setting up air directives. In WITE you would have to perform the same actions each turn by switching between various modes and clicking the map. Otherwise you can equally follow or ignore "fatigue, morale, add pilots, setup ground support, superiority etc etc etc". Personally I mostly ignore all the details and follow them in very critical places only.


< Message edited by Helpless -- 6/17/2016 2:41:31 PM >


_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to Darojax)
Post #: 8
RE: Request for gameplay tips/my feeback - 6/17/2016 2:45:27 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless
With similar approach it is possible to ignore air management in WITW as well, it doesn't sound as valid argument on system manageability.


Seems I can't explain the feeling clearly enough. What's important in WitE1 is that you can start a new game and immediately start moving the counters on map. You can look into air matters later (later this turn, or many turns later), when you will discover they are no longer giving enough support. What estranged me from WitW was the requirement of having to deal with air first, before being allowed to shuffle counters. Somehow the child in me wasn't happy I couldn't touch those from the get go.

(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 9
RE: Request for gameplay tips/my feeback - 6/17/2016 2:52:28 PM   
Helpless


Posts: 15783
Joined: 8/27/2004
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Oh, you wanted a car, but parents bought you transformer and gave you a
"robot"? ;)

< Message edited by Helpless -- 6/17/2016 2:59:15 PM >


_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 10
RE: Request for gameplay tips/my feeback - 6/17/2016 3:02:14 PM   
Darojax


Posts: 416
Joined: 4/29/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

Well, no need to be sorry, feedback is very welcomed, but you seem to misunderstand basic things on the air management as your saying contains incorrect statement. Both games share exactly the same elements - "fatigue, morale, add pilots, setup ground support, superiority etc etc etc". The only difference is that WITW allows you to "record" your missions by setting up air directives. In WITE you would have to perform the same actions each turn by switching between various modes and clicking the map. Otherwise you can equally follow or ignore "fatigue, morale, add pilots, setup ground support, superiority etc etc etc". Personally I mostly ignore all the details and follow them in very critical places only.


Alright. Maybe I wasn't able to explain clearly previously, but what I meant to say was that in WitE there is no place to set airgroups to rest, so you do not have to manage and keep an eye on fatigue or morale (yes, you can send the airgroup to the reserve, but that's it). There is also no button to 'add pilots' the way there is in WitW in order to keep your airgroups fully manned. There is also no place to assign and setup ground support, this is done automatically in WitE. There is also no place to setup/manage air superiority at all in WitE. All this makes managing the air much easier in WitE. I've played WitE a lot. Are we talking about the same game?

< Message edited by Darojax -- 6/17/2016 3:08:49 PM >

(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 11
RE: Request for gameplay tips/my feeback - 6/17/2016 3:06:30 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

Oh, you wanted a car, but parents bought you transformer and gave you a
"robot"? ;)


Something like this :)

(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 12
RE: Request for gameplay tips/my feeback - 6/17/2016 3:19:50 PM   
Helpless


Posts: 15783
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:


Maybe I wasn't able to explain clearly previously, but what I meant to say was that in WitE there is no place to set airgroups to rest, so you do not have to manage and keep an eye on fatigue or morale (yes, you can send the airgroup to the reserve, but that's it).


All of these perfectly exist in WITE. And you have to follow fatigue and morale in WITE otherwise you will be loosing.

quote:

There is also no button to 'add pilots' the way there is in WitW in order to keep your airgroups fully manned.


You can ignore this button. Pilots are adding automatically unless you decide to leave your beloved WITE-style automation and start adding them manually.

quote:

There is also no place to assign and setup ground support, this is done automatically in WitE.


It requires just single GS air directive (and all scenario come with one). After that all is managed totally automatically.

quote:

There is also no place to setup/manage air superiority at all in WitE.


There are AS(sweep) missions in WITE which can be indirectly "managed". You can ignore AS in WITW, which would be a big mistake, because it is the most interesting aspect of the air game.

quote:

Are we talking about the same game?


Sure, I've coded them a lot. :)

< Message edited by Helpless -- 6/17/2016 3:23:09 PM >


_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to Darojax)
Post #: 13
RE: Request for gameplay tips/my feeback - 6/17/2016 3:33:18 PM   
Darojax


Posts: 416
Joined: 4/29/2011
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Alright, you win. The air management in WitW is MUCH easier than in WitE.


So, any successful Allies players having some good gameplay tips for challenging those Axis walls of defensive steel? Thanks in advance.

(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 14
RE: Request for gameplay tips/my feeback - 6/17/2016 3:53:38 PM   
Helpless


Posts: 15783
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Alright, you win. The air management in WitW is MUCH easier than in WitE.




quote:

So, any successful Allies players having some good gameplay tips for challenging those Axis walls of defensive steel? Thanks in advance.


http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4029256

I would add that you can intensify GS by bumping mission percentage in air doctrines.


< Message edited by Helpless -- 6/17/2016 3:55:59 PM >


_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to Darojax)
Post #: 15
RE: Request for gameplay tips/my feeback - 6/17/2016 5:39:17 PM   
HMSWarspite

 

Posts: 1401
Joined: 4/13/2002
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darojax

Hi.

Been playing a lot of War in the East and now been playing a few multiplayer games as the Allies in War in the West, and I have to say it is a frustrating venture! I played the Torch to Tunisia scenario, and I also recently resigned a 43-45 game due to lack of progress. Here is what is killing me:

1. The defensive terrain and fortification multipliers. The defending side is easily able to just dig in and get extremely high defensive bonuses (both in Italy and northern France). I have more troops, but that doesn't matter because:

2. The 3 unit stacking limit. It doesn't matter that I have a lot more men and units, because I am unable to focus them enough to breach through extremely high defensive values (which are all over). Even setting units as reserve in the rear doesn't help much, since you never know if they will be committed or not.

If anyone can give me any good tips to turn around my allied gameplay in a big way, that would be much appreciated, thanks! Or I fear I will give it up entirely.

Also, I have to say that I am not a fan of the current air management system (compared to War in the East which was much more functional in my humble opinion). There is way too much micromanagement to be done, and even if you let the AI manage everything, it will still make a mess of things. Also, I don't understand why I keep losing every single air battle vs the luftwaffe in the Torch to Tunisia scenario, it is as if we are facing gods in the sky! The germans shoot down 30 of my fighters while I shoot down none, repeatedly! And I don't think it is me doing something wrong, because leaving the air to the AI gives the exact same results. Somethings off here.

Finally I have to say that despite the above, the War in the East and West are still among the most awesome strategy games I have ever played, so thankyou for that.

regards

Dan


Not quite sure how you managed to trigger such an interesting debate unrelated to your question!

To deal in turn:
High CV defenses. Yes, especially in Italy (or supplied cities) these are a pain. But then read an account of the war in Italy - they are a realistic pain! To deal with them you need well rested, full TOE, fully supported (read engineers) and supplied allied units with max artillery attacking tired, disrupted and short on supply Germans, preferably with no reserve defensive units activating. I am no expert (the opposite in fact) however:
Rotate your troops. Rest a corps, or more - you need 6-9 really rested and refitted divisions. Make sure they are all on the same HQ. Make sure that HQ has max (6+) big artillery units (155mm etc, not just field guns). Put the corps on supply priority 4, and make sure there is a depot nearby that gets copious supplies (preferably with a stock in the 10000tons+ range). Make sure you have good leaders. Make sure you have up to 1 engineer per division attached and also maybe tanks/mountain regiments (or a mountain division) if the defender is in mountains.

Before you attack with this lot, spend several weeks interdicting their supply. Bomb railyards and interdict hexes next to and leading to the targets supply source (if you can locate it, or just up all the likely valleys otherwise. Bomb the units themselves for a couple of turns as well. One turn before, bomb all the rail lines to their depot, and increase the interdiction to the max extent (hard in Italy but I find 3-4 interdiction is possible in clear terrain - in Normandy go for 9 all the time!). For the above, unit and interdiction can be by FB, railyards by medium bombers (or heavy but they should be elsewhere probably).Consider using medium/heavy bombers to attack the target hex on the turn of the assault.

Do not attack more than once a turn unless you reduce their fort level by at least 1 and get odds of say 1.7:1 or better, as you will be suffering more than the enemy. People make the mistake of attacking multiple times and this is a mistake becsue you do so much damage to your own units they wont have recovered by next turn. The aim is to wear the target down, whilst recovering each turn yourself. Rotate units out of the attacking stacks and use fresh ones if possible. Expect it to take 2 or 3 weeks to capture the target in some cases (more in some cases, but if he is suffering more than you, you will get there).

This can all take months to set up and achieve success.

Next: Torch. None of the above applies! The principles do but you don't have the units or supply to do that. But the key is rest and refit, possibly back from the front. I find 8th Army is key, but it is in real trouble unless you nurse it as it advances across the desert and attacks southern Tunisia - you must capture a port to supply them on the eastern plain then you will run all over the defence.
Torch LW. They are still very good, close to their early war capability. Your units are not in brilliant aircaft, and I never manage good A-A results. So bomb their airfields. As often as possible, and as strongly as possible (which wont always be that strong). Also, for much of the game the no 1 priority is interdict supply into Tunisia from Sicily. NI, bomb ports etc. Then the GAF can't fly and it doesn't matter how good they are. It is frustrating to get a perfect intercept on a transport flight and get horribly beaten by the escort though!

Hope this helps, and I am sure there are other tips that a much better player than I can give. I would sau AARs as well, but they don't tend to include all the little details...



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RE: Request for gameplay tips/my feeback - 6/17/2016 5:54:05 PM   
Darojax


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Those are some solid tips right there, thanks HMSWarspite!

< Message edited by Darojax -- 6/17/2016 5:57:21 PM >

(in reply to HMSWarspite)
Post #: 17
RE: Request for gameplay tips/my feeback - 6/17/2016 11:13:06 PM   
Chuske


Posts: 386
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From: Exeter, UK
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Warspite has already given an excellent answer.

In case you need more help, in the war room section of this forum at the top of which is a sticky thread where I gathered lots of useful links to tutorial threads. Take a look, here is the link

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3964247

< Message edited by jonboym -- 6/17/2016 11:21:55 PM >


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(in reply to Darojax)
Post #: 18
RE: Request for gameplay tips/my feeback - 6/19/2016 3:27:32 AM   
barkhorn45

 

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If you read about the Tunisian campaign(suggest An Army at Dawn)you'll see the germans had air superiority over the front.
There's a reason the Medjez-el-bab river valley was called Stuka Valley.
There airfields were closer to the front than the allies.
The game shows pretty good historical representation.

< Message edited by barkhorn45 -- 6/19/2016 3:30:11 AM >

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