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RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck?

 
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RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/18/2016 5:46:16 PM   
sullafelix

 

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Okay, to me that is not an exploit and is an example of an AI that needs to be worked on. In many games the AI defends much better than it attacks so I usually attack.

To me when you describe an 'exploit' I am thinking about one certain case of using an odd tactic that the AI cannot cope with.

There was one game where the AI couldn't deal with units that used the outside of the map.

So you had some players who were massing all of their units either at the top or bottom of the map to take advantage of this.

Which leads into another part of the equation. Why would anyone boast online that they beat an AI?

I am not talking about you, just people in general. Because, that is what happened in the above scenario.

So you are talking more about things like this. There was a Napoleonic wargame that was made not too long ago, where the AIs artillery would charge out in front of it's troops and get slaughtered.

To be honest, that was fixed in the game.

< Message edited by sulla05 -- 6/18/2016 5:53:08 PM >


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RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/19/2016 1:28:53 AM   
aaatoysandmore

 

Posts: 2854
Joined: 9/11/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tesuji

quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore
Was that "hard mode"?


Honestly, I don´t remember. But as you insist it is as good as BN, I will see if I find the game somewhere and give it another try.

What exactly do you mean by hard mode? Any specific setting I should put up to 5?



When you get to the "New Game" selection screen there are some numbers for HighLord from 1 to 5 in two catagories. Change these from 3's to 5's on both. One is just difficulty and the other one is reinforcements. It's very challenging. Even on 3's though I had some very good games of it even though I won them eventually. But, it was a grind still.

Make sure they say "HighLord" because some of them are to give you advantages as the Whitestone player.

Some interesting articles on AI.

https://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/designing-artificial-intelligence-for-games-part-1

http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~jakulin/FT/


< Message edited by aaatoysandmore -- 6/19/2016 11:32:41 AM >

(in reply to sIg3b)
Post #: 122
RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/19/2016 4:43:23 PM   
sIg3b


Posts: 199
Joined: 4/25/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sulla05

Okay, to me that is not an exploit and is an example of an AI that needs to be worked on. In many games the AI defends much better than it attacks so I usually attack.

To me when you describe an 'exploit' I am thinking about one certain case of using an odd tactic that the AI cannot cope with.

There was one game where the AI couldn't deal with units that used the outside of the map.

So you had some players who were massing all of their units either at the top or bottom of the map to take advantage of this.

Which leads into another part of the equation. Why would anyone boast online that they beat an AI?

I am not talking about you, just people in general. Because, that is what happened in the above scenario.

So you are talking more about things like this. There was a Napoleonic wargame that was made not too long ago, where the AIs artillery would charge out in front of it's troops and get slaughtered.

To be honest, that was fixed in the game.


Wow, we are finally getting on the same page.

Yes, my problem is not with very odd tactics that no one would think to use.

Rather that most AIs cannot cope with obvious and ordinary tactics.

2 most important categories of crappy AI:

1. AI opponent is extremely predictable.

So you have these scissors/stone/paper situations where you *know* the AI will always use scissors. Now of course I will always use stone. I can´t convince myself I do not know what the AI is going to do.

2. AI does not use its units as an organized whole.

Now as insects do not have a very sophisticated CPU, it should be possible for an AI force to at least behave like an insect hive. Instead, more often than not, we have individual units that act like fire-and-forget missiles. If the AI designer viewed the whole force as *one* organism rather than a large number of individual entities, this mindset would be a large step toward a better AI.

So I want a hive-like AI with some high-level behaviour parameters randomized. This could be a worth-while opponent.



< Message edited by Tesuji -- 6/19/2016 4:47:23 PM >

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Post #: 123
RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/19/2016 6:56:05 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 1932
Joined: 4/14/2016
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline
I don't doubt that some programmers could put more effort in their AIs and i also do not criticize a particular post here. But before blaming developers for beeing silly, think a bit how you would design an AI.
Lets assume a hexagon map with a front line, manned by a number of 60 divisions (both sides).
How would you tell the AI
-whether it is on the defense or attack over the whole front?
-when to attack/defend at a particular area even though the whole front strategy is different?
-whether units are threatened by encirclement over the nex 1-2 turns
-whether it should do a risky attack resulting in the encirclement of an enemy army, but also exposes the best own units to destruction
-how to find the best attacking shedule requiring as few MPs as possible, has minimal losses, still allows supply to flow to units during logistics phase etc.?
Now try to do not actually program it but formulate the Algorithm in Detail. You have no idea? I don't have one for every question too (i am not a programmer but interested in such problems). Maybe you will discover a solution after some time of intense thinking. But it won't be easy...

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Post #: 124
RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/19/2016 9:08:33 PM   
sullafelix

 

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Joined: 1/11/2005
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The other problem we have with AIs is if we do create one.

There is a post on the SimHQ forum that states a scientist saying that within an hour at most an artificial AI that starts out with the same brain power as us, would be a million times smarter.

So probably no pulling the plug on it once it starts going.

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Post #: 125
RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/19/2016 10:04:23 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 1932
Joined: 4/14/2016
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline
Well, for games we are speaking from a very very simple AI. It only does things the programmer has foreseen in some way and won't, in most cases, not learn from one game to the next one.
The AI the Scientist means will more like a neuronal network or something like this.
Two completely different things, the "intelligent" AI is way off topic (nothing which would bother me of course).

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Post #: 126
RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/20/2016 12:28:42 AM   
aaatoysandmore

 

Posts: 2854
Joined: 9/11/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tesuji

quote:

ORIGINAL: sulla05

Okay, to me that is not an exploit and is an example of an AI that needs to be worked on. In many games the AI defends much better than it attacks so I usually attack.

To me when you describe an 'exploit' I am thinking about one certain case of using an odd tactic that the AI cannot cope with.

There was one game where the AI couldn't deal with units that used the outside of the map.

So you had some players who were massing all of their units either at the top or bottom of the map to take advantage of this.

Which leads into another part of the equation. Why would anyone boast online that they beat an AI?

I am not talking about you, just people in general. Because, that is what happened in the above scenario.

So you are talking more about things like this. There was a Napoleonic wargame that was made not too long ago, where the AIs artillery would charge out in front of it's troops and get slaughtered.

To be honest, that was fixed in the game.


Wow, we are finally getting on the same page.

Yes, my problem is not with very odd tactics that no one would think to use.

Rather that most AIs cannot cope with obvious and ordinary tactics.

2 most important categories of crappy AI:

1. AI opponent is extremely predictable.

So you have these scissors/stone/paper situations where you *know* the AI will always use scissors. Now of course I will always use stone. I can´t convince myself I do not know what the AI is going to do.

2. AI does not use its units as an organized whole.

Now as insects do not have a very sophisticated CPU, it should be possible for an AI force to at least behave like an insect hive. Instead, more often than not, we have individual units that act like fire-and-forget missiles. If the AI designer viewed the whole force as *one* organism rather than a large number of individual entities, this mindset would be a large step toward a better AI.

So I want a hive-like AI with some high-level behaviour parameters randomized. This could be a worth-while opponent.




You would probably like Combat Mission I or II then as that pretty much is what it has is a hive mind on offense. It's pretty predictable and runs up the same paths of cover nearly every game I've played. While they have improved the not guarding the edges a bit it's still very predictable. It rarely if ever splits its forces and once you find the nest the mortars and artillery can have a field day.

About the best thing with AI's today are when the game is brand new and you don't know the AI patterns. But, nearly every game just as soon as you see them and learn them then it's the same game after game. It's like playing your little 6 year old brother time after time game after game. He was such a sucker for 52 card pickup.

Granted all games AI's aren't bad just the majority of them.

My top 10 AI games

1. War of the Lance
2. Civilization I-IV (this ai cheats abundantly though and we all know it).
3. Spartan 1.013 version (after I modded the AI build patterns)
4. Conquest Medieval
5. Centurian Defender of Rome
6. Battles of Napoleon
7. Panzer Command
8. Command Ops
9. Norbsofts Civil war series
0. Ageod's Ale Jete Est

(in reply to sIg3b)
Post #: 127
RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/20/2016 4:28:41 PM   
sIg3b


Posts: 199
Joined: 4/25/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sulla05

The other problem we have with AIs is if we do create one.

There is a post on the SimHQ forum that states a scientist saying that within an hour at most an artificial AI that starts out with the same brain power as us, would be a million times smarter.

So probably no pulling the plug on it once it starts going.


Nah, as Iain Mc Neil rightly pointed out, an AI is very game-specific. If it can beat me at Steel Panthers, doesn´t mean it can take over the world.

Fantasy Empires beats me, and still the Dungeon Master isn´t ruling us yet. (Or perhaps he is, and we are not intelligent enough to notice. )

(in reply to sullafelix)
Post #: 128
RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/20/2016 4:59:25 PM   
sIg3b


Posts: 199
Joined: 4/25/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

You would probably like Combat Mission I or II then as that pretty much is what it has is a hive mind on offense. It's pretty predictable and runs up the same paths of cover nearly every game I've played. While they have improved the not guarding the edges a bit it's still very predictable. It rarely if ever splits its forces and once you find the nest the mortars and artillery can have a field day.

About the best thing with AI's today are when the game is brand new and you don't know the AI patterns. But, nearly every game just as soon as you see them and learn them then it's the same game after game. It's like playing your little 6 year old brother time after time game after game. He was such a sucker for 52 card pickup.

Granted all games AI's aren't bad just the majority of them.

My top 10 AI games

1. War of the Lance
2. Civilization I-IV (this ai cheats abundantly though and we all know it).
3. Spartan 1.013 version (after I modded the AI build patterns)
4. Conquest Medieval
5. Centurian Defender of Rome
6. Battles of Napoleon
7. Panzer Command
8. Command Ops
9. Norbsofts Civil war series
0. Ageod's Ale Jete Est


You missed the part where I said AI should be a Hive Mind, but also somewhat random and unpredictable.

I agree: Civ3 and 4 particularly have a reasonably good AI.

Most astonishing AI, however: Fantasy Empires!

After a game or two I suddenly noticed the AI was starting to counter my strategy. It learned from me! Playing late at night, that was a creepy experience.

Only game with a learning AI I have ever encountered.

(in reply to aaatoysandmore)
Post #: 129
RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/20/2016 5:23:45 PM   
sullafelix

 

Posts: 1520
Joined: 1/11/2005
Status: offline
I meant if we as humans can create real AI.

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Post #: 130
RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/20/2016 11:47:01 PM   
catwhoorg


Posts: 719
Joined: 9/27/2012
From: Uk expat lving near Atlanta
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tesuji


quote:

ORIGINAL: sulla05

The other problem we have with AIs is if we do create one.

There is a post on the SimHQ forum that states a scientist saying that within an hour at most an artificial AI that starts out with the same brain power as us, would be a million times smarter.

So probably no pulling the plug on it once it starts going.


Nah, as Iain Mc Neil rightly pointed out, an AI is very game-specific. If it can beat me at Steel Panthers, doesn´t mean it can take over the world.

Fantasy Empires beats me, and still the Dungeon Master isn´t ruling us yet. (Or perhaps he is, and we are not intelligent enough to notice. )



That is a blast from the past. Loved that game

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Post #: 131
RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/21/2016 5:15:29 PM   
sIg3b


Posts: 199
Joined: 4/25/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sulla05

I meant if we as humans can create real AI.


We should start with creating real I first.

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Post #: 132
RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/21/2016 5:32:15 PM   
sIg3b


Posts: 199
Joined: 4/25/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg
That is a blast from the past. Loved that game.


Still playing it (with Dosbox).

Being a purist, I roll my characters -no tinkering with the stats!- and play Ironman (no reloading except for crashes).

I only take on 1 or 2 opponents, though. Playing against 4 AIs is not a promising proposition, since they have learned to gang up on me and rush me before my defences are up. And if I try to pay for peace, they take my Gold, then still attack next turn! And then they paradrop Undead in my backyard. Gamey, cheating, backstabbing bastards!

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Post #: 133
RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/22/2016 12:18:52 AM   
aaatoysandmore

 

Posts: 2854
Joined: 9/11/2013
Status: offline
quote:

And if I try to pay for peace, they take my Gold, then still attack next turn! And then they paradrop Undead in my backyard. Gamey, cheating, backstabbing bastards!


nothing a human wouldn't so I'm sure.

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Post #: 134
RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/22/2016 5:47:56 PM   
sIg3b


Posts: 199
Joined: 4/25/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

quote:

And if I try to pay for peace, they take my Gold, then still attack next turn! And then they paradrop Undead in my backyard. Gamey, cheating, backstabbing bastards!


nothing a human wouldn't so I'm sure.


That´s what´s bothering me. My psychiatrist says there are no evil Dwarves, Elves, Clerics and Mages in my notebook, or at least not many and they are harmless, but I know better!

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Post #: 135
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