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[UPDATED DB v445] Database Request

 
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[UPDATED DB v445] Database Request - 4/29/2016 8:02:47 PM   
DWReese

 

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Ragnar,

I would like to see some air craft that have a "SEAD" loadout where iTALDS (or decoys) are carried. Right now, I have had to find ARM-armed planes and delete those weapons and then add the iTALDs. The Loadout, however, still lists the planes as having a HARM Loadout, even though they are no longer carrying HARMs at all. It's just a thought.

Doug

< Message edited by emsoy -- 5/8/2016 6:01:48 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Database Request - 4/30/2016 1:01:37 AM   
mikmykWS

 

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Could you add this to the db string with sources and pictures of the loadouts?

Thanks

Mike

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RE: Database Request - 4/30/2016 5:01:46 AM   
DWReese

 

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Mike,

I assume that your response message was for me, but I'm not sure.

I attached a link to the Israeli F-16I plane, and it lists all of the various weapons carried. Interestingly, the TALDs were actually created/designed for the USN by the Israelis. Obviously, the TALD and ITALD are weapons that can be carried by the IAF.

The link has some great pictures, as well.

Hopefully, this is what you wanted.

http://israeli-weapons.com/weapons/aircraft/f-16/F-16.html

Thanks again,

Doug

(in reply to mikmykWS)
Post #: 3
RE: Database Request - 4/30/2016 9:25:53 AM   
michaelm75au


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Database requests should go here http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3436106

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Michael

(in reply to DWReese)
Post #: 4
RE: Database Request - 4/30/2016 3:03:10 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DWReese

Mike,

I assume that your response message was for me, but I'm not sure.

I attached a link to the Israeli F-16I plane, and it lists all of the various weapons carried. Interestingly, the TALDs were actually created/designed for the USN by the Israelis. Obviously, the TALD and ITALD are weapons that can be carried by the IAF.

The link has some great pictures, as well.

Hopefully, this is what you wanted.

http://israeli-weapons.com/weapons/aircraft/f-16/F-16.html

Thanks again,

Doug


Yes nobody else responded to your initial post so its gotta be you I'm reply too.

Not sure on that picture. Not even sure its a F-16 or F-15. Anyways we'll do some digging and see what we come up with.

This could be awhile.

Mike

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Post #: 5
RE: Database Request - 4/30/2016 6:13:36 PM   
jimcarravall

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk


quote:

ORIGINAL: DWReese

Mike,

I assume that your response message was for me, but I'm not sure.

I attached a link to the Israeli F-16I plane, and it lists all of the various weapons carried. Interestingly, the TALDs were actually created/designed for the USN by the Israelis. Obviously, the TALD and ITALD are weapons that can be carried by the IAF.

The link has some great pictures, as well.

Hopefully, this is what you wanted.

http://israeli-weapons.com/weapons/aircraft/f-16/F-16.html

Thanks again,

Doug


Yes nobody else responded to your initial post so its gotta be you I'm reply too.

Not sure on that picture. Not even sure its a F-16 or F-15. Anyways we'll do some digging and see what we come up with.

This could be awhile.

Mike

F-16 Air intake is below the cockpit.

F-15 Air intake is integrated into where the wing connects to the fuselage.


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Take care,

jim

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Post #: 6
RE: Database Request - 4/30/2016 6:32:26 PM   
ExNusquam

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Yes nobody else responded to your initial post so its gotta be you I'm reply too.

Not sure on that picture. Not even sure its a F-16 or F-15. Anyways we'll do some digging and see what we come up with.

This could be awhile.

Mike

Mike, for your reference, the only picture of a TALD on that page is one attached to the wing of a legacy F/A-18.

Image Reference/Image from Israeli-weapons.com
Compare the pylon shape (SUU-63, for reference), as well as the interface between the drooped ailerons/flaps. F-16 Pylons lack the kink visible on the SUU-63, and furthermore, F-16's don't have ailerons. I'd put money on the fact that the picture from Isreaeli-Weapons is from a USN F/A-18 during the test phase (hence the orange paint). I think the file name is a red herring.

< Message edited by ExNusquam -- 4/30/2016 6:34:26 PM >

(in reply to mikmykWS)
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RE: Database Request - 4/30/2016 7:04:14 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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Agreed thanks guys. Will continue to dig to see if we can find any hint of Israeli MALD/TALD loadouts.

Mike

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Post #: 8
RE: Database Request - 5/1/2016 12:59:32 PM   
DWReese

 

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Thanks for responding.

I'm asking this question for knowledge, not to be confrontational.

If I am reading your post correctly, it appears that you are stating that the F-16I can not carry the ITALD, is that correct?

If not, what would they carry instead? What platform would Israel use to deploy the ITALD/TALD decoy? I would sincerely like to know. I have never heard that before, but you sound like you are knowledgeable on the topic, so that's why I am asking. The site that I provided indicated that they could. Why would they do that if it wasn't accurate?

If I am reading the history of the TALD correctly, it appears that Israel was, at least, involved in its original development. It would seem odd that the country wouldn't have a platform to deliver it.

Whatever knowledge that you can pass along would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, in advance.

Doug

(in reply to ExNusquam)
Post #: 9
RE: Database Request - 5/1/2016 2:23:45 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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It looks like everybody is trying to help

Thanks

Mike

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RE: Database Request - 5/1/2016 3:10:30 PM   
jimcarravall

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DWReese

Thanks for responding.

I'm asking this question for knowledge, not to be confrontational.

If I am reading your post correctly, it appears that you are stating that the F-16I can not carry the ITALD, is that correct?

If not, what would they carry instead? What platform would Israel use to deploy the ITALD/TALD decoy? I would sincerely like to know. I have never heard that before, but you sound like you are knowledgeable on the topic, so that's why I am asking. The site that I provided indicated that they could. Why would they do that if it wasn't accurate?

If I am reading the history of the TALD correctly, it appears that Israel was, at least, involved in its original development. It would seem odd that the country wouldn't have a platform to deliver it.

Whatever knowledge that you can pass along would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, in advance.

Doug


Images of F-16I loadouts, including TLAD, and ITLAD decoys

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/aircraft/f-16i/F-16I.html

_____________________________

Take care,

jim

(in reply to DWReese)
Post #: 11
RE: Database Request - 5/1/2016 3:47:09 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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Jim we were talking about those same photos above. They're on a F/A-18.

Mike

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Post #: 12
RE: Database Request - 5/1/2016 4:28:57 PM   
anxiousbob

 

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I would expect them to use vipers, but how sure are you that they have TALD/ITALD at all? The only reference to them possibly using decoys that I could find was a blurb on IMI's website referring to their decoys as "combat proven" in USN and Israeli service, but I think that may refer to the Samson drone, which the Israelis did use in combat. That was developed into the Delilah cruise missile, which seems to be the primary SEAD tool for the F-16I these days.

< Message edited by anxiousbob -- 5/1/2016 4:31:14 PM >

(in reply to DWReese)
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RE: Database Request - 5/1/2016 10:51:35 PM   
jimcarravall

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Jim we were talking about those same photos above. They're on a F/A-18.

Mike

My mistake.

It was a different URL and label, and I didn't see the discussion on the F/A 18 analysis.

I'll keep looking.



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Take care,

jim

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Post #: 14
RE: Database Request - 5/2/2016 12:40:22 AM   
mikmykWS

 

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Ok found a couple of sources pointing at TALD usage in the early 80's and an AAR from the soviets from RAND. I totally believe it.

Looking here..TALD's etc. come from Delilah (Chukar like drone not CM..that came later) and Samson. One was ground launched and the other air launched.

Still not finding pictures of them loaded. Key might worth adding Samson to Delilah to any search.


< Message edited by mikmyk -- 5/2/2016 12:42:13 AM >


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RE: Database Request - 5/2/2016 12:47:46 PM   
jimcarravall

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Ok found a couple of sources pointing at TALD usage in the early 80's and an AAR from the soviets from RAND. I totally believe it.

Looking here..TALD's etc. come from Delilah (Chukar like drone not CM..that came later) and Samson. One was ground launched and the other air launched.

Still not finding pictures of them loaded. Key might worth adding Samson to Delilah to any search.



I'm thinking Samson and Delilah are the Israeli version of what we know as ADM 141A and ADM 141C. All were initially designed by Brunswick, with the Samson surviving as an Israeli production effort after the original ADM 141 concept was turned down by the US Air Force, and Delilah gaining an engine around the time the Navy-funded effort resurrected Brunswick's original work for the Air Force as its ADM 141 procurement(s).

Here's what I find as a link between Samson and Delilah designs.

http://www.iaf.org.il/5642-35312-en/IAF.aspx

Here's where I found a linking of the Israeli Military Industries Brunswick production.

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-141.html

Back in the day I was working the logistics integration of an "active protection system" for the Army's Future Combat System armored vehicles. That Army active protection system was an adaption of the Israeli-designed system already battle tested on Israeli armored vehicles. It isn't a stretch to expect cooperation in other armed services on weapons designs, particularly as the US DoD licenses development and production of state side designed weapons for foreign allies when the technologies prove salable overseas but aren't necessarily funded for immediate production or procurement by US the military once a design has been set.

I'm thinking this is a similar parallel between Samson Delilah and the Navy's ADM series.

As the first article indicates, Delilah was a highly secret weapons system, which may indicate why there aren't any publicly available photos of the drones installed on an Israeli aircraft.

About the only reference I could find regarding aircraft mounting was that the devices were capable of being mounted on a wing pod in up to groups of six per pod with no indication of a specific aircraft. Also ran across a reference of decoys being launched from Israeli versions of the C-130, perhaps indicating that the means to get the decoys to an appropriate height to mimic targets is pretty flexible.

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Take care,

jim

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Post #: 16
RE: Database Request - 5/3/2016 12:53:59 AM   
airwinger63


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There's some good info here.. First night of the first gulf war, all I loaded was TALD (ADM-141) and GBU-10s (2,000 lbs Paveways II) on A-6E on Saratoga.

http://trace.tennessee.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3638&context=utk_gradthes


Airwinger63

quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

It looks like everybody is trying to help

Thanks

Mike



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IYAOYAS

If You Ain't Ordnance You Ain't ****.

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RE: Database Request - 5/3/2016 1:28:03 AM   
mikmykWS

 

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Thanks for posting that. Lots of good information there!

Mike

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RE: Database Request - 5/3/2016 1:40:32 AM   
airwinger63


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No thank you for such a great product and even greater support for it.

Airwinger63

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IYAOYAS

If You Ain't Ordnance You Ain't ****.

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Post #: 19
RE: Database Request - 5/3/2016 12:44:32 PM   
thewood1

 

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That is an awesome doc and link. Reinforces a couple things for me...

1) How much real engineering goes into a fairly simple design. I have heard people ask a few times why the military can't just use simple drones to do stuff like this. The testing shows the number of things that can go wrong and how much testing needs to be done to assure performance. Its amazing to me how disciplined the testing environment is. Most of the is learned through the school of hard knocks. Makes me wonder how disciplined some of the countries with newer military industrial infrastructure fair in an advanced development environment.

2) It also gives a hint into why turnaround times are so long for aircraft. If you are carrying even just six ITALDs, it seems like it would take a while just to plan and program the profiles. That's on top of all the other tasks needed to get a strike off the ground.

Again, thanks for the link.

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RE: Database Request - 5/3/2016 5:29:55 PM   
Nightwatch

 

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Possibly related, can anyone id the thing from the pictures? (sry for hijacking the thread)

Attachment (1)

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RE: Database Request - 5/3/2016 6:52:47 PM   
anxiousbob

 

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Maybe this?
http://www.marvingroup.com/images/uploads/documents/SUU-20_Flyer_-_Final_Draft_1.pdf

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RE: Database Request - 5/3/2016 7:35:58 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nightwatch

Possibly related, can anyone id the thing from the pictures? (sry for hijacking the thread)


Interesting. Have no idea what that might be.

Mike


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RE: Database Request - 5/3/2016 7:36:23 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: anxiousbob

Maybe this?
http://www.marvingroup.com/images/uploads/documents/SUU-20_Flyer_-_Final_Draft_1.pdf


No sorry

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Post #: 24
RE: Database Request - 5/3/2016 7:43:16 PM   
Nightwatch

 

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Hm i think anxiousbob is correct.

http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/equip/suu20.jpg
It has the same holes in the back.


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RE: Database Request - 5/3/2016 7:47:55 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nightwatch

Hm i think anxiousbob is correct.

http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/equip/suu20.jpg
It has the same holes in the back.




Yeah agreed. Not sure what I was thinking

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RE: Database Request - 5/3/2016 8:19:28 PM   
DWReese

 

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I don't know anything about the nomenclature of the F-16I with regard to what it can carry, or how many weapons it can carry.

I did do some research that said that Israeli F-16s (it did not specifically say F-16I) carries ATALD decoys, instead of TALDS, or ITALDS. I had never heard of an ATALD. When you Google ATALD, it takes you immediately to the TALD pages. So, it would appear that the ATALDS are obviously similar to TALDS. Perhaps they aren't as good, I don't know. In any case, I don't know how may that an F-16 or an F-16I could carry. Perhaps some of you can advise me on that.

One other interesting bit about this situation indicates that as of November, 2015, Israel was attempting to acquire MALDs, but had not done so as of that time. The MALDs appear much smaller, but from what I have seen is that they can do the same thing as the ATALDS, or the ITALDS, but are apparently smaller.

I hope that this helps.

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RE: Database Request - 5/3/2016 8:52:37 PM   
Nightwatch

 

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Regarding TALD/ITALD/ATALD/MALD. I personally dont believe the IAF uses exactly the same weapon as the US. So no ADM-141 in IAF service (and therefore not pictures of it). I believe they use the Delilah missile family to carry whatever tech necessary to field a decent decoy.
Its no big secret, the Delilah is much more than just a loitering air launched cruise missile in fact i can be pretty much anything from ARM to ADM if required.

Check out this quote from an impressive article on the history of Delilah on the official iaf website:

quote:


Different generations of a weapon often receive different names. For example, the first two generations of Rafael's Shafrir air-to-air missile were known as the Shafrir 1 and 2, whereas the next three generations were known as the Python 3, 4 and 5. However, for Delilah missiles this is not the case. Primarily for security reasons, it was decided that all of the missiles in the Delilah family would have the same name, not even appended with a generation number. However, the Delilah which the Air Force received in the nineties is not the same that it receives today, despite the fact that their external appearance is almost identical. The differences between different models of the Delilah are in fact so fundamental that they can be seen as totally different kinds of missile, despite their shared name. Thus, IMI help the IAF distinguish between the different models by marking the production number. For example, the missiles marked "block 30", "block 40" and so on.

For obvious reasons we cannot go into the details of the differences between the various generations of Delilah missile, but we can say that they were adapted for delivery by different aircraft. Whilst the missile was originally fitted for launch by the Phantom, it has since also been fitted to, amongst others, the Super Phantom, the F-16C/D and the F-16I.

http://www.iaf.org.il/5642-35312-en/IAF.aspx

It makes much sense. Delilah looks very similar to the ADM-141C, i wouldnt be surprised if they have pretty much the same internal layout anyway. If the Delilah is adaptable easy enough, there is no reason to field another system.

Also keep in mind, the Israeli defense industry very different than what they have in the US or other western countries. Mot of the big players are state owned companies (IAI, IMI, Rafael) with extremely close ties to the IDF. In fact its probably pretty much impossible to distinguish between the army and some defense company on the ground. The idea that israeli defense firm have technology that the IDF doesnt use in some variation is pretty far fetched in my opinion.




< Message edited by Nightwatch -- 5/3/2016 8:55:18 PM >

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RE: Database Request - 5/3/2016 8:56:25 PM   
Nightwatch

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DWReese

I don't know anything about the nomenclature of the F-16I with regard to what it can carry, or how many weapons it can carry.

I did do some research that said that Israeli F-16s (it did not specifically say F-16I) carries ATALD decoys, instead of TALDS, or ITALDS. I had never heard of an ATALD. When you Google ATALD, it takes you immediately to the TALD pages. So, it would appear that the ATALDS are obviously similar to TALDS. Perhaps they aren't as good, I don't know. In any case, I don't know how may that an F-16 or an F-16I could carry. Perhaps some of you can advise me on that.



ATALD = Advanced TALD
Its just the newest version.

http://www.imi-israel.com/home/doc.aspx?mCatID=65734

quote:


One other interesting bit about this situation indicates that as of November, 2015, Israel was attempting to acquire MALDs, but had not done so as of that time. The MALDs appear much smaller, but from what I have seen is that they can do the same thing as the ATALDS, or the ITALDS, but are apparently smaller.

I hope that this helps.
Doenst mean much. They purchase lots of system in the US because they can pay for them with FMF funds.




< Message edited by Nightwatch -- 5/3/2016 8:58:01 PM >

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Post #: 29
RE: Database Request - 5/4/2016 12:43:55 AM   
DWReese

 

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it has since also been fitted to, amongst others, the Super Phantom, the F-16C/D and the F-16I

Delilah looks very similar to the ADM-141C, i wouldnt be surprised if they have pretty much the same internal layout anyway


Thank so much for your valuable input. I just have two questions remaining:

1. In terms of playing CMANO, what would be the difference (if any) in the performance of a Delilah DECOY and the ITALD, or the ATALD? Would it be noticeable at all?

2. Finally, you indicated that the Delilah could be carried by the F-16I. How many could they carry, and what would be the normal loadout for a SEAD mission?

Thanks again.

(in reply to Nightwatch)
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