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Logistics 101 continued - clarification - 4/22/2016 4:58:21 PM   
Macclan5


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The Ultimate resource read and digested - thank you Sir Alfred.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2878790&mpage=1&key=stockpile%2Cfuel�

Clarification(s):

1) Resources (not Oil not Fuel not Supply) Should it be "extra territorial resources" for Industry ?

Moving "resources from Hilo to Pearl keeps the economy humming. Check.

But Australia seems to have resources all over the place randomly. Melbourne / Adelaide is accumulating lots through 1942, Darwin is accumulating.

I have moved some from Tasmania to Melbourne / Adelaide.

Sydney seems to use the resources (HI makes sense).

Tasmania seems to generate them. New Zealand seems to generate Kiwi's by the bushel.

Do I devote a few low value cargo ships to feed Sydney from i.e. New Zealand, Tasmania even Nomea because "extra territorial resources" feed industry? I.e. is it better to move resources from "off shore" for production or does Australia "feed itself" except perhaps Darwin which has broken movement from major centers.

2) Resources back to the West Coast ?

Should I be investing resources back into the West Coast ? I have been running low value conveys from Vancouver Island for example but again - for every "fuel dump" into Nomea or Suva - should I load a "quick grab bag of resources" to SF ?

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RE: Logistics 101 continued - clarification - 4/22/2016 5:43:16 PM   
Macclan5


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Edit add:

No stockpiling nor demand switches set in Melbourne / Adelaide / Sydney.

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RE: Logistics 101 continued - clarification - 4/22/2016 6:58:18 PM   
Alfred

 

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I am going to answer your query mainly by setting you some more homework.

Read this thread and also follow the embedded links I provide to other threads where I make relevant comments.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3909234&mpage=1&key=magic%2Chighway&#3909352

Whilst the thread is dealing with setting up the magical highway for Japan, the principles covered illustrate the movement of raw materials for Allied players too.

There are many threads where the question is raised about should "x" resources, or "y" supplies, or "d" fuel or "e" oil should be moved from place "a" to place "b" or "c".  In some of them the principles are discussed but usually it is primarily very specific details which pertain to that specific situation/player strategy.  As such the discussion often is of limited value in understanding properly how the system operates.

It is always better to understand the principles as then the specific circumstances can be properly factored into one's plans.

As to the very general questions you pose, here are some very general answers.

1.  The entire AE logistics model is demand driven.  Movement occurs because of "demand" not because of "supply".

2.  Canada and CONUS has equilibrium between the demand of oil for its local refineries and the supply of oil from its local oil wells (aka oil centres in-game).  There is a surplus of local supply of resources over and above the local demand for resources.  There is also a surplus of local production of fuel to meet the local demand for fuel.

3.  Australia has a surplus of local supply of resources over and above the local demand for resources.  There is a deficit of local production of oil and fuel to meet the respective local demand for these industry inputs.

4.  From the above it is clear that Australia needs to import oil/fuel to fully maintain its industry producing at 100%

5.  From point 5 above, it follows that Australia needs to import fuel to sustain naval operations from its ports.

Alfred

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RE: Logistics 101 continued - clarification - 4/23/2016 2:02:40 AM   
Macclan5


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Once again Sir - my thanks.

I was conscious of the need for Oil and Fuel to Australia.

I read in the manual - supported by your 101 thread - that HI and LI 'also' need "resources" as in addition to Fuel.

This quote in my homework (LOL) actually answers me best:

6. In the absence of player intervention, raw materials produced at a base are sent to satisfy the natural demands from all bases which can trace a valid supply path back to the production site. Any surplus raw materials production is then sent to the largest port which can trace a valid supply path. The tie breaker when 2 or more equally sized ports are candidates, is the port with the highest spoilage limit.

--

I have created sinks if you will at Tasmania for "supply" and Melbourne for "demand / sink". Melbourne has been expanded as much as possible and therefore rivals Sydney in port size / AB / Fort. Sydney is drawing (as are other Aust locations) "slowly" to support HI LI but the sink is Melbourne. It was the safest to ship there sans IJN subs.

There is no "extra benefit" from flooding Sydney Port with "say Kiwis from New Zealand" or "grapes from SF" compared to the "Taz pelts from Tasmania" ... its all abstracted.

I was concerned i.e. that resources was more narrowly defined and I was not aware. i.e. metallurgical coal from USA had added value compared to Bauxite internally in Aus.

_____________________________

A People that values its privileges above it's principles will soon loose both. Dwight D Eisenhower.

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RE: Logistics 101 continued - clarification - 4/23/2016 5:07:32 AM   
Yaab


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Macclan5

6. In the absence of player intervention, raw materials produced at a base are sent to satisfy the natural demands from all bases which can trace a valid supply path back to the production site. Any surplus raw materials production is then sent to the largest port which can trace a valid supply path. The tie breaker when 2 or more equally sized ports are candidates, is the port with the highest spoilage limit.



Interesting. It seems it also applies to supplies, and possibly to oil and fuel as well.

That would finally expalin all the things I observed in this thread
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2780376

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RE: Logistics 101 continued - clarification - 4/23/2016 3:28:47 PM   
Macclan5


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Yes...

Now with Supply, Fuel, and Oil - no bases seem to produce sufficient amounts to meet widespread need.

(Exception USA and Abdaban)

Hence I had established stockpiling etc and my pipelines / flow are well established.

That part is very well explained in Logistics 101

---

What I didn't wrap my head around was resources.

So many bases produce resources. Atoll's, Islands, Northern Australia, Tasmania, etc etc etc

I more perfectly realize resources are an abstraction; however I am never absolutely certain sometime how detailed the game is.

I was particularly worried I needed to "ship special metallurgical coal from USA to Australia" for example; as opposed to "pelts from Tasmania."

Or indeed there was some added bonus to do so.

A little too much "railroad tycoon" thinking on my part.

< Message edited by Macclan5 -- 4/23/2016 3:30:42 PM >


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A People that values its privileges above it's principles will soon loose both. Dwight D Eisenhower.

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RE: Logistics 101 continued - clarification - 4/23/2016 8:21:43 PM   
BBfanboy


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If you get tempted to start sending ships to resource-rich islands to load up and return to places like PH and Oz, remember a couple of things:

- you need 15 resources to get one supply point from LI
- you need 20 resources to get two supply points from HI
- you burn fuel to go get the resources
- you tie up the ship for some time when it could possibly be fetching supply from the surplus in the USA or CT

I only pick up resources if my ships are already very close by delivering supply or troops and I do not need them back in a hurry.

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RE: Logistics 101 continued - clarification - 4/23/2016 10:31:08 PM   
Macclan5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

If you get tempted to start sending ships to resource-rich islands to load up and return to places like PH and Oz, remember a couple of things:

- you need 15 resources to get one supply point from LI
- you need 20 resources to get two supply points from HI
- you burn fuel to go get the resources
- you tie up the ship for some time when it could possibly be fetching supply from the surplus in the USA or CT

I only pick up resources if my ships are already very close by delivering supply or troops and I do not need them back in a hurry.


Thanks Sir BB... that is the missing piece!



Is that in the manual. I have read page to page - I cannot reference that?

--


That mathematical equation now makes all the sense in the world.

My fuel supply convoys SF to Suva will stop and pick up resources for the return trip. Why not its worth the minor delay.

However unless I am performing a two way haul i.e. Auckland to Sydney... it is much less imperative.

Less use in using fuel one way - even on low endurance xAKs running supplies if it only adds a few points.





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A People that values its privileges above it's principles will soon loose both. Dwight D Eisenhower.

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RE: Logistics 101 continued - clarification - 4/24/2016 3:49:46 AM   
BBfanboy


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You have the perfect setup between PH and Hilo. Hilo needs supplies from PH and PH needs resources for the industry. You do not have to divert a single hex to pick up the resources so there is no additional fuel cost. Put the TF on "Coastal" routing and it stays in shallow water, which IJN subs usually avoid, so no escort is required either. Hilo will run out of resources after a few shiploads and you have to wait a while before doing it again.

Noumea-Brisbane is another good "supply in/resources out" run. But IJN subs like to stake out this route.

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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RE: Logistics 101 continued - clarification - 4/24/2016 9:59:12 AM   
Yaab


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Since USA is awash with fuel, you can burn some of it by hauling resources from Tacoma, USA to Pearl. In my game Tacoma, has 36,000 res surplus on every turn, idling on the West Coast.

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RE: Logistics 101 continued - clarification - 4/25/2016 12:55:06 AM   
Crackaces


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quote:

1. The entire AE logistics model is demand driven. Movement occurs because of "demand" not because of "supply".


This statement has so many implications .. one thing is to create an artificial demand through stockpiling and HQ units

Where I see things get really nutso is China when multiple fronts are engaged .. I am not so sure how the Algorithm works except Supply is scarce everywhere except for the ports the Allies drop supply on

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RE: Logistics 101 continued - clarification - 4/25/2016 3:56:34 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Since USA is awash with fuel, you can burn some of it by hauling resources from Tacoma, USA to Pearl. In my game Tacoma, has 36,000 res surplus on every turn, idling on the West Coast.

Yes you can do that or you can get 15 times as much supply to PH by loading those same ships with supplies from the huge surplus sitting in the US. That is the opportunity cost argument.
Unless the ships are already somewhere with an excess of resources but no supply to spare, it is not efficient to haul resources instead of supply.

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RE: Logistics 101 continued - clarification - 4/26/2016 11:42:17 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

it is not efficient to haul resources instead of supply.


That's a mouthful, and is very pertinent to the Japanese player as well. Its why I advocate building up industry some in those resource rich areas, then later you can haul supply instead. Saves FUEL.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

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RE: Logistics 101 continued - clarification - 4/27/2016 1:49:43 PM   
Macclan5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy.

<snip>

Noumea-Brisbane is another good "supply in/resources out" run. But IJN subs like to stake out this route.


Thanks BB once again.

Yes indeed.

In fact the Pearl Hilo I mentioned above.

The "obvious supply / resource" I have found to date

1) Hilo Load Resource - Pearl Load Supply

2) Seattle - Victoria

3) Tasmania / Melbourne (or Adelaide)

4) Ceylon / Madras subject to ASW

Correct - the harbors of Sydney (and environs) would appear to be a Japanese Sub playground of incredibly difficult ASW detection hence I have avoided it.



< Message edited by Macclan5 -- 4/27/2016 2:13:06 PM >


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A People that values its privileges above it's principles will soon loose both. Dwight D Eisenhower.

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RE: Logistics 101 continued - clarification - 4/27/2016 2:10:08 PM   
Macclan5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

it is not efficient to haul resources instead of supply.


That's a mouthful, and is very pertinent to the Japanese player as well. Its why I advocate building up industry some in those resource rich areas, then later you can haul supply instead. Saves FUEL.


Thank you for this as well.

Now I will ask a "contrary opinion" or clarification if you please.

Every so often you read a thread in these forums from the Japanese or Allied side that says "explicitly"

1) "Dump an occasional load of oil into Australia" or
2) "Dump some oil into <insert southern Japanese port> <insert northern Japanese port> that has a refinery

From that I presumed it is important and worthwhile to haul fuel and raw resources to these places with HI - LI ?

I assume you mean don't dedicate large consistent convoys ?? The marginal return is too low ?

But the advice is sound ? Dump the odd convey in because Hi - Li need resources and refinery needs oil ?






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A People that values its privileges above it's principles will soon loose both. Dwight D Eisenhower.

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RE: Logistics 101 continued - clarification - 4/27/2016 3:06:53 PM   
BBfanboy


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The reason it sounds "intermittent" is that tankers are too valuable to send in an unescorted or poorly escorted small convoy. Better to set plan a big convoy with over 100K fuel once a month or so (or embed the TK/AOs in a troop convoy to use their escorts). It takes about a month to get to Australia from the USA anyway.

For Australia I have even hauled from Abadan to Perth, if the IJN is absent from the IO. Others haul fuel from EC USA to CT, then on-map to Adelaide or Melbourne. As long as you dump fuel at a port with a rail connection to the industrial cities it will go where it is needed.

As for hauling Oil instead of fuel, it is the same situation as resources vs. supply. IIRC it takes 10 oil to produce 1 fuel so if you want a place to get fuel, bring fuel. In the case of the Japanese Islands, Hokkaido has some oil but needs fuel for ships to use the port there so hauling fuel to Hokkaido or Sakhalin and bringing oil back is useful.

For Australia, at game start haul fuel from the DEI and if you exhaust that, then haul oil if you can. Use small tankers only in this dangerous area. You don't want a big one sitting for days loading.

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RE: Logistics 101 continued - clarification - 4/27/2016 11:03:33 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

IIRC it takes 10 oil to produce 1 fuel


No, 10 oil will produce 9 fuel and 1 supply.

quote:

2) "Dump some oil into <insert southern Japanese port> <insert northern Japanese port> that has a refinery


At least for Japan, she has excess refinery capacity in the HI (home islands) and excess oil throughout the empire. So as I see it, it behooves her to ship the excess oil to the HI.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to BBfanboy)
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RE: Logistics 101 continued - clarification - 4/28/2016 1:07:08 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

IIRC it takes 10 oil to produce 1 fuel


No, 10 oil will produce 9 fuel and 1 supply.


OOPS! My bad! Thanks for the corrections rustysi.
One small wrinkle in a game that is full of them - I think in some of the mods and maybe the latest beta the conversion of 10% of oil refined to supply has been removed.

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