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RE: Warspite1 Keep Out! - 3/11/2017 12:56:06 PM   
AllenK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mayhemizer

Game 1

Italy need to make sure they don't get 4 corps to Albania. Problem is what happens when they invade Sicily.

There is not much we can do during this summer. Next summer we can start by attacking Greece from Bulgaria. We can attack by INF, PARA and divisions from sea.


Game 1

It might be better to invade Yugoslavia before that can come about.

(in reply to Mayhemizer_slith)
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RE: Warspite1 Keep Out! - 3/11/2017 1:10:01 PM   
Centuur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AllenK


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mayhemizer

Game 1

Italy need to make sure they don't get 4 corps to Albania. Problem is what happens when they invade Sicily.

There is not much we can do during this summer. Next summer we can start by attacking Greece from Bulgaria. We can attack by INF, PARA and divisions from sea.


Game 1

It might be better to invade Yugoslavia before that can come about.


Things are not as easily done anymore at this point. Germany has got a whole lot of problems. First, there is the situation in Spain. Second, there is the Balkans and finally there is the situation with the USSR.
To be honest: you need to plan very carefully before making a decision on attacking either Greece or Yugoslavia. The attack on one of those countries needs to be very efficient and that's not so easily done anymore, since those countries have more units at start.
Personally, I think an attack on Yugoslavia will be easier as compared to an attack on Greece.
And it's very, very important that the Germans DoW the USSR and not the other way around...

_____________________________

Peter

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RE: Warspite1 Keep Out! - 3/11/2017 1:16:54 PM   
Mayhemizer_slith


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Game 1

Germany declares war as soon as there is fine weather in north temperate.

I have bad feeling about this (entire game), but let's see how the incoming summer goes...

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RE: Warspite1 Keep Out! - 3/11/2017 1:18:53 PM   
AllenK


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In the words of Pvt. Fraser.




Attachment (1)

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RE: Warspite1 Keep Out! - 3/11/2017 1:19:30 PM   
Centuur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mayhemizer

Game 1

Germany declares war as soon as there is fine weather in north temperate.

I have bad feeling about this (entire game), but let's see how the incoming summer goes...


Well, to be honest, I also are not that convinced that the Axis can hold until the end of the J/A 1945 turn. But stranger things have happened and luck might change...

_____________________________

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RE: Warspite1 Keep Out! - 3/11/2017 1:29:00 PM   
AllenK


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All part of a fiendishly cunning plan to lull the Allies into a genuine sense of security .

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RE: Warspite1 Keep Out! - 3/11/2017 3:14:49 PM   
Klydon


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I think the Axis are shafted in both games. To me, the decisive rule in play that has done that is defensive shore bombardment. It is simply too strong early in the game and not realistic at that point in the war. (Is there an example of the Allies getting such heavy support in 1940 in France or in Africa in 1941-42 once the Germans were involved?)

While other mistakes/things happened, I think the games would be better served without it until perhaps later in the war.

Just my two cents.

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RE: Warspite1 Keep Out! - 3/11/2017 3:50:33 PM   
AllenK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

I think the Axis are shafted in both games. To me, the decisive rule in play that has done that is defensive shore bombardment. It is simply too strong early in the game and not realistic at that point in the war. (Is there an example of the Allies getting such heavy support in 1940 in France or in Africa in 1941-42 once the Germans were involved?)

While other mistakes/things happened, I think the games would be better served without it until perhaps later in the war.

Just my two cents.


I've read of RN ships providing gunfire support in France 1940 to slow down the Germans while troops were evacuated but this tended to be destroyers. Ships also covered evacuations in the Med. I don't know about realism. Just because the Allies didn't use their capital ships in this way early in the war doesn't mean they couldn't have done. 15" and 16" shells fired in 1940 would have been just as strong as they were later when they were instrumental in helping defeating German counter-attacks at Anzio and Normandy. It seems equally unrealistic not to have it included.

I suppose you can always have a house rule limiting how much and when it can be employed. Perhaps In the Presence of the Enemy should not be used so if Allied BB's in the North Sea are all disorganised they don't slow down a German breakout by their capital ships into the Atlantic.

In both games, the Axis have chosen courses of action that allow the Allies to bring defensive shore bombardment into play. They could have done differently. Also, the Axis might have employed their air power to better effect to take out BB's in high sea boxes beyond fighter cover and naval power to raid convoy lanes in the knowledge the RN BB's were committed.

The lesson learned is playing to one of the Allies strengths and not doing enough to counter it, is likely to end in tears .


< Message edited by AllenK -- 3/11/2017 4:22:03 PM >

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RE: Warspite1 Keep Out! - 3/11/2017 6:41:53 PM   
Mayhemizer_slith


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USSR has solid line, 2 units in each hex, but they pulled their line back few hexes.

Riga was open for paradrop before USSR pulled back.

I counted coprs sized units in eastern front. It's not looking good, both have about same amount... I guess Germany has to do something to fix that situation.




Attachment (1)

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RE: Warspite1 Keep Out! - 3/11/2017 6:55:49 PM   
Mayhemizer_slith


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Can I rebase Italian fighter from Gibraltar to Madrid? Allies are going to bomb it a lot if there is no fighter.

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RE: Warspite1 Keep Out! - 3/11/2017 6:59:03 PM   
Klydon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AllenK


I've read of RN ships providing gunfire support in France 1940 to slow down the Germans while troops were evacuated but this tended to be destroyers. Ships also covered evacuations in the Med. I don't know about realism. Just because the Allies didn't use their capital ships in this way early in the war doesn't mean they couldn't have done. 15" and 16" shells fired in 1940 would have been just as strong as they were later when they were instrumental in helping defeating German counter-attacks at Anzio and Normandy. It seems equally unrealistic not to have it included.

I suppose you can always have a house rule limiting how much and when it can be employed. Perhaps In the Presence of the Enemy should not be used so if Allied BB's in the North Sea are all disorganised they don't slow down a German breakout by their capital ships into the Atlantic.

In both games, the Axis have chosen courses of action that allow the Allies to bring defensive shore bombardment into play. They could have done differently. Also, the Axis might have employed their air power to better effect to take out BB's in high sea boxes beyond fighter cover and naval power to raid convoy lanes in the knowledge the RN BB's were committed.

The lesson learned is playing to one of the Allies strengths and not doing enough to counter it, is likely to end in tears .



No question shore bombardment support can be quite effective; I don't disagree with that. The thing I disagree with especially is the RN providing support in the North Sea area or really anywhere along the coast in 1940 in the face of the Luftwaffe. The CW knew the Germans had overwhelming air superiority at least on the mainland and along the coast. Risking battleships that are 10-15 miles off the coast in the face of a pile of Stukas is something the RN wasn't willing to do and for good reason. The RN battleships stayed well away from there and only light forces were engaged from time to time.

The issue is the mechanics of the game in terms of sea areas (where the German aircraft limited range plays a much bigger role in how effective they would be or not be) vs having ships sitting off shore at a given spot. There is no allowance for that scenario that should result almost in a automatic find and what should be a higher box for attacking aircraft in such a spot.

< Message edited by Klydon -- 3/11/2017 7:00:36 PM >

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RE: Warspite1 Keep Out! - 3/11/2017 7:01:26 PM   
AllenK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mayhemizer

Can I rebase Italian fighter from Gibraltar to Madrid? Allies are going to bomb it a lot if there is no fighter.


Sounds good.

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RE: Warspite1 Keep Out! - 3/11/2017 8:31:44 PM   
Centuur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

quote:

ORIGINAL: AllenK


I've read of RN ships providing gunfire support in France 1940 to slow down the Germans while troops were evacuated but this tended to be destroyers. Ships also covered evacuations in the Med. I don't know about realism. Just because the Allies didn't use their capital ships in this way early in the war doesn't mean they couldn't have done. 15" and 16" shells fired in 1940 would have been just as strong as they were later when they were instrumental in helping defeating German counter-attacks at Anzio and Normandy. It seems equally unrealistic not to have it included.

I suppose you can always have a house rule limiting how much and when it can be employed. Perhaps In the Presence of the Enemy should not be used so if Allied BB's in the North Sea are all disorganised they don't slow down a German breakout by their capital ships into the Atlantic.

In both games, the Axis have chosen courses of action that allow the Allies to bring defensive shore bombardment into play. They could have done differently. Also, the Axis might have employed their air power to better effect to take out BB's in high sea boxes beyond fighter cover and naval power to raid convoy lanes in the knowledge the RN BB's were committed.

The lesson learned is playing to one of the Allies strengths and not doing enough to counter it, is likely to end in tears .



No question shore bombardment support can be quite effective; I don't disagree with that. The thing I disagree with especially is the RN providing support in the North Sea area or really anywhere along the coast in 1940 in the face of the Luftwaffe. The CW knew the Germans had overwhelming air superiority at least on the mainland and along the coast. Risking battleships that are 10-15 miles off the coast in the face of a pile of Stukas is something the RN wasn't willing to do and for good reason. The RN battleships stayed well away from there and only light forces were engaged from time to time.

The issue is the mechanics of the game in terms of sea areas (where the German aircraft limited range plays a much bigger role in how effective they would be or not be) vs having ships sitting off shore at a given spot. There is no allowance for that scenario that should result almost in a automatic find and what should be a higher box for attacking aircraft in such a spot.


Will the Stuka find before or after the shore has been bombarded by the BB's? Usually after a bombarding action took place, the enemy forces reacted on it and were not capable of preventing the action itself. Shore bombardment itself should not be prevented, I believe.
But I agree totally that enemy aircraft should be able to fly in a high sea box directly after such an action took place and search rolls should be made for a naval combat

There is something else too which is really strange. If there is both offensive and defensive shore bombardment into a hex, that seems to be very strange to me. I can't imagine a fleet commander which doesn't attack enemy ships before firing the big guns towards the shore...

_____________________________

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RE: Warspite1 Keep Out! - 3/11/2017 9:05:33 PM   
Klydon


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I thought about the difference between defensive and offensive shore bombardment and what sort of effect it may have on aircraft, etc.

The advantage lies with the attacker for the most part. The attacker gets to pick when their fleet would need to be on station in order to support the scheduled attack.

The defender has no real idea when an attack might be coming, but has to have their ships in position (or really close to it) in order to provide timely support.

Now, a case can be made of intel spoiling the timing of plans, but the game doesn't really take that into consideration.

I also agree with your point that a fleet commander would never do a shore bombardment first if enemy ships were in the area to be engaged.

Sorry for the derail. I do enjoy the games and AARs you guys have been playing, but from the cheap seats, it appears the defensive shore bombardment rule has had a big impact on both games for the Axis unfortunately.

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RE: Warspite1 Keep Out! - 3/11/2017 10:44:01 PM   
AllenK


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In MWiF a ship can make 1 shore bombardment in a turn. Given a turn represents two months of time, thinking in terms of supporting particular attacks or defences is too literal. The factor could represent both direct support or night bombardment runs (used by both sides in the Pacific) where the ships degrade the fighting ability of the enemy then get clear of defending air by daylight. Sometimes things went wrong and the ships got caught, which happens in game through the sea box concept and aircraft ranges.

That said, I think it would be more realistic (and reduce the power) if defensive shore bombardment reduced the attacking factors rather than adding to the defence. An attack starting at 8:2 and getting 2 defensive bombardment factors currently drops to 2:1 (8:4). Subtracting the factors from the attack gives 3:1 (6:2).

< Message edited by AllenK -- 3/11/2017 10:49:29 PM >

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RE: Warspite1 Keep Out! - 3/12/2017 12:11:31 PM   
Centuur


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Still, one should make search rolls and do naval combat in these cases out of the 4 box from both sides at this stage. If you don't find the enemy, you continue. If you do find, first you fight the ships and the remaining ships may add shore bombardment. Shore bombardment comes too cheap, IMHO. There is no risk involved in allocating ships to bombardment anymore, and there should be...

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RE: Warspite1 Keep Out! - 3/12/2017 3:57:47 PM   
AllenK


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I'm happy with searching from whatever sea-box the ships are in. I think of sea-box as representing time on station. Over a 2 month turn, ships in low sea-boxes are able to spend less time on patrol, giving the opposition more opportunity to send ships of their own in unchallenged for bombardment.

That said, I think a simple house rule may help resolve the issue. I would suggest a side that declines to search if given the option cannot use shore bombardment (offensive or defensive) in that impulse. Essentially this represents the task force staying out mid ocean.

Similarly, a side that used surprise points to avoid combat couldn't use shore bombardment that impulse.

I think I would also be inclined to not play with In the Presence of the Enemy so if the CW packs the North Sea with BB's for shore-bombardment, the Germans don't get movement penalties if they decide to raid the Atlantic while the RN is occupied.

< Message edited by AllenK -- 3/12/2017 5:03:16 PM >

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RE: Warspite1 Keep Out! - 3/12/2017 4:09:10 PM   
Mayhemizer_slith


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About defensive shore bombardment I say what I have said before:

If I attack a coastal city in fine weather and order 100 naval bombers (covered by 300 fighters) to prevent defensive shore bombardment, how can enemy ships sneak in ruin my attack? Any given moment there are dozens of planes flying but none of them can detect enemy ships...

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RE: Warspite1 Keep Out! - 3/12/2017 4:52:54 PM   
AllenK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mayhemizer

About defensive shore bombardment I say what I have said before:

If I attack a coastal city in fine weather and order 100 naval bombers (covered by 300 fighters) to prevent defensive shore bombardment, how can enemy ships sneak in ruin my attack? Any given moment there are dozens of planes flying but none of them can detect enemy ships...


It's an abstraction. The ships aren't necessarily providing long-range artillery to repulse the main attack. Over that period, using cover of darkness or poor weather when the planes are grounded, the defenders mount several bombardment missions targeting HQ's, communications, supply dumps and front-line positions. When the attack is eventually mounted, it is less effective as a result of the damage received. The Japanese certainly fought this way but got caught out when their ships got damaged or otherwise held up in night-time encounters with the US, leaving them in range of the 100 bombers and 300 fighters come day-break.

< Message edited by AllenK -- 3/12/2017 4:57:55 PM >

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RE: Warspite1 Keep Out! - 3/16/2017 8:37:46 PM   
AllenK


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Edit: Posted on wrong thread.

< Message edited by AllenK -- 3/16/2017 9:08:10 PM >

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RE: Warspite1 Keep Out! - 3/16/2017 9:05:53 PM   
Mayhemizer_slith


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I just tested how Barbarossa would start if we get initiative and fine weather.

Not very good, they have good defense. Germany gets only 6 automatic attacks during first impulse.

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RE: Warspite1 Keep Out! - 3/16/2017 9:10:21 PM   
AllenK


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I'm surprised it's as much as 6. I think the 'Lightning War' phase has probably passed the Axis by now .

I hope we get initiative. I could have done with one more impulse last turn for Japan.

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RE: Warspite1 Keep Out! - 3/16/2017 9:15:12 PM   
Mayhemizer_slith


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I get 6 units but I need to use 2 planes in Lithuania. Germany gets over river line.

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RE: Warspite1 Keep Out! - 3/17/2017 1:21:27 PM   
Centuur


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But it's better than if you wait for the hammer to fall. If you can DoW the Soviets in an impulse with fine weather, I would do so. It's better to align the Rumanians before the Soviets make the decision to DoW them (and bomb the oil fields into a huge pile of rubble during the surprise impulse).

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RE: Warspite1 Keep Out! - 3/17/2017 2:32:55 PM   
AllenK


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I'm with Peter on this one. 6 units, somewhere between 12 and 18 BP's for no loss, would be a great result for the Axis at this stage. Short of some unlikely disastrous moves by USSR, this isn't a grand campaign of conquest. It's about killing as many Soviet units as possible so production is spent on rebuilding rather than getting stronger and taking ground to buy time. Hopefully you can get to a decent river line to hold.

It' wasn't that long ago near suicidal attacks were being launched in Spain. I suppose this new caution is a consequence.

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RE: Warspite1 Keep Out! - 3/17/2017 3:10:25 PM   
Mayhemizer_slith


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Yes, Germany attacks as soon as we get fine weather and Aligns Rumania right away.

Germany leaves 2 fighters to protect oil fields.

< Message edited by Mayhemizer -- 3/17/2017 4:05:56 PM >

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RE: Warspite1 Keep Out! - 3/17/2017 6:32:57 PM   
AllenK


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Forwards. If not to victory, then let's make our defeat glorious.

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RE: Warspite1 Keep Out! - 3/17/2017 6:40:49 PM   
Centuur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AllenK

Forwards. If not to victory, then let's make our defeat glorious.


That's the spirit. However: advance with caution...

_____________________________

Peter

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RE: Warspite1 Keep Out! - 3/17/2017 8:24:30 PM   
AllenK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur


quote:

ORIGINAL: AllenK

Forwards. If not to victory, then let's make our defeat glorious.


That's the spirit. However: advance with caution...


Easy to be spirited when it's not my troops in the firing line

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RE: Warspite1 Keep Out! - 3/17/2017 8:31:28 PM   
Mayhemizer_slith


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Game 1.

If Allies win initiative, should we reroll?

I say yes. We are doing so bad anyway. BoB will be almost empty of surface ships, submarines may put northern Spain OOS.

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