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Singapore - 3/23/2016 8:28:37 PM   
LeeChard

 

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I'm having another go at playing Japan GC.
Singapore is about to fall but It's late April.
Historically I'm way behind.
I gathered my forces into a large stack then Moved down the west coast as fast as I could.
Was I too timid?
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RE: Singapore - 3/23/2016 8:35:28 PM   
Anachro


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How did it take until April to move down? You could also have moved some forces into Mersing after softening up his air force enough, provided you had a strong surface fleet accompanying it. lish. Another thing, you can use your mobile units to quickly take unoccupied areas to establish a transportation line through which you can then bring down the rest of your forces by rail.

As long as you prep well, etc. you should be able to beat the enemy forces in most engagements on Malaya. No need to be extra timid.

(in reply to LeeChard)
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RE: Singapore - 3/23/2016 9:52:43 PM   
LeeChard

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro

How did it take until April to move down? You could also have moved some forces into Mersing after softening up his air force enough, provided you had a strong surface fleet accompanying it. lish. Another thing, you can use your mobile units to quickly take unoccupied areas to establish a transportation line through which you can then bring down the rest of your forces by rail.

As long as you prep well, etc. you should be able to beat the enemy forces in most engagements on Malaya. No need to be extra timid.

I sat on my rear and built up massive invincible force that wasn't necessary apparently.
I'm hanging my head in shame
I also learned that I neglected to set at least one factory to continue building Kates
Fortunately I'm playing the AI so the other guy won't get bummed if I throw in the towel.

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RE: Singapore - 3/24/2016 1:04:37 AM   
BBfanboy


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One thing you need to do before starting a game - start up as the Other Side and look over the troops they have spread around - not detailed notes, just get a general impression of how strong the enemy is. Japan would have had that much intel prior to the war's start. You would have seen that the plethora of troops in Malaya have low AV, low morale, low supply, and low experience. IOW, a Japanese boy scout troop could give them a spanking.

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RE: Singapore - 3/24/2016 1:45:17 AM   
Lowpe


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Your delayed taking of Singers won't hurt. Keep playing and learning until that particular game isn't fun anymore & then start a new one.

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RE: Singapore - 3/24/2016 3:24:09 AM   
LeeChard

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Your delayed taking of Singers won't hurt. Keep playing and learning until that particular game isn't fun anymore & then start a new one.

I have tied a lot of valuable assets there for a long time but I intend to press on.
On the positive side my carrier forces have dished out some damage without taking serious harm.
This is still a learning game for me. The hardest part is obviously production and I have to get deeper
into the game to find out what I've done wrong to begin with.

(in reply to Lowpe)
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RE: Singapore - 3/24/2016 4:01:23 AM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Your delayed taking of Singers won't hurt. Keep playing and learning until that particular game isn't fun anymore & then start a new one.

+1

Take it to at least 1/43 before you start another one. you need to see what you will need at that point to make better early decisions.
Your next game, take it to 1/44 so you then know what you need for that date.

As opposed to the allies, you really have to plan ahead for what you want. The allies plan for what they get. BIG difference.

I spent a year playing Downfall/Armageddon so that I could really see what was needed in 45/46 to defend the HI ....

< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 3/24/2016 4:04:38 AM >


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RE: Singapore - 3/24/2016 4:41:57 AM   
LeeChard

 

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Sounds like a plan

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RE: Singapore - 3/24/2016 8:00:00 AM   
JeffroK


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After the initial land I would not be afraid to advance in MOVE mode.

Allied forces are weak, inexperienced and at low morale.

Should get you south until you run into 22/27 Aust or 53/54/55 Brit Brigades which are better.

Read a history on the campaign, AE does a pretty good replica.

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RE: Singapore - 3/24/2016 12:06:14 PM   
LeeChard

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

After the initial land I would not be afraid to advance in MOVE mode.

Allied forces are weak, inexperienced and at low morale.

Should get you south until you run into 22/27 Aust or 53/54/55 Brit Brigades which are better.

Read a history on the campaign, AE does a pretty good replica.

I was reading an article on a related subject that referred to the surrender or Singapore.
That's when I realized how far behind I was(my ageing brain does not have easy recall anymore)
Not only have I moved in combat mode for the most part, I waited until my recon had reached I high detection level.
Not exactly Patton like.
I've won the GC playing the allies before but I was much more aggressive then. I knew in the back of my mind
that replacements and supplies would eventually come gushing in!

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RE: Singapore - 3/24/2016 12:55:26 PM   
JeffroK


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You have to replicate the Bicycle Blitz, not wait for Petrol like Patton.

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RE: Singapore - 3/24/2016 7:05:44 PM   
LeeChard

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

You have to replicate the Bicycle Blitz, not wait for Petrol like Patton.

Did they bring bikes with them or did they make use of what they found?
While we're on the subject,can you recommend a book on the Malay campaign?

(in reply to JeffroK)
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RE: Singapore - 3/24/2016 8:01:23 PM   
Grfin Zeppelin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ranger5355


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

You have to replicate the Bicycle Blitz, not wait for Petrol like Patton.

Did they bring bikes with them or did they make use of what they found?
While we're on the subject,can you recommend a book on the Malay campaign?

They brought bycicles with them yes. This allowed them despite being outnumbered rush down the peninsula and restock supplies at the "Churchill stores"
Its hilarious if you think about it.Thats why its called the Bycicle-Blitz.

< Message edited by Gräfin Zeppelin -- 3/24/2016 8:06:16 PM >


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RE: Singapore - 3/24/2016 8:07:20 PM   
kaleun

 

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After the bike tires wore off, the noise they made confused the allies into thinking they had tanks coming at them.

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RE: Singapore - 3/24/2016 10:59:28 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

I waited until my recon had reached I high detection level.


A better way to 'recon' a hex is to fire an artillery barrage as this will let you know what's in it without much danger of taking high losses. You'll get a much more informative picture this way too. In my experience (I've looked as I'm playing against the AI) air recon (9/10 detection) usually multiplies ground numbers by ~x2.

Once the Brits are in retreat use your armor to pursue down the peninsula as they can move much faster and should be enough to push any opposition back until you get to the southern end.

I took Singers about a month late in my last AI game, because I failed to commit sufficient forces to the final assault. As has been said above, against the AI, no biggie. Live and learn. I'd push on with the game though as you'll have many more 'learning' instances.

A good way to pick up most of this stuff is to read a couple of AAR's, if you haven't already.

Ciao


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RE: Singapore - 3/25/2016 12:36:49 AM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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"Empires in the Balance" from H. P. Willmott deals quite extensively with Malaya's campaign

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RE: Singapore - 3/25/2016 4:25:39 AM   
Arnhem44


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ranger5355
Did they bring bikes with them or did they make use of what they found?
While we're on the subject,can you recommend a book on the Malay campaign?


Regarding the bicycles, it depends on which sources you put your faith in. I'd go with half and half, there were at least a couple of bicycle equipped infantry battalions in the 5th and 18th Divisions but they were definitely not fully outfitted as bicycle infantry, on the contrary these 2 lead divisions were motorized and as they swept down the peninsula they snapped up any bicycles they could lay their hands on, the Brits also very graciously left behind lots of motor transport as they retreated.

For literature on the Malayan campaign it's a mixed bag, personal opinion follows.

The official histories by Lionel Wigmore (The Japanese Thrust) and Woodburn Kirby (The War Against Japan, Vol. 1) are a good place to start as they obviously had access to anything or anyone they needed but the double edged sword of being official histories also meant they couldn't put down on paper everything they learnt. Kirby himself followed up with Singapore: The Chain of Disaster which probably went some way to assuaging the sense of frustration he had at not being able to say what he wanted to say.

Most of the other stuff, pre yr 2000, especially anything that perpetuates the myth of the guns facing the wrong way should be taken with a healthy dose of skepticism and cross checked for accuracy. However, there are some personal memoirs/battlaion histories which stand out.
Battalion at War by Michael Moore which chronicles the journey of the 1st Cambridgeshires, part of the ill fated British 18th Division, the majority of which arrived just in time to play their part in the week long defence of Singapore and then march into captivity. Moore's account of the battalion's part in the defence of Adam Park, a housing estate which still stands today is excellent and backed up by a recent archeological dig that focused on the area and yielded cartridge casings by the bucket load along with other war detritus.
Moon over Malaya by Jonathan Moffatt is also another excellent pick, this one tells the story of the 2nd Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, probably the best trained and best led battalion in the whole of Malaya Command.
The British Battalion by Chye Kooi Loong is also another well researched book. This one tells the story of 2 British battalions, 1st Leicestershires and 2nd East Surreys both of which suffered so heavily in the early stages of the campaign they had to be amalgamated.
Honourable mention goes to Tsuji Masanobu's The Mastermind behind Japan's Greatest Victory, Britain's Worst Defeat, if you can get past his very obviously self serving narcissistic style of writing there's probably some elements of truth mixed in with his self inflated sense of how things turns out.

Then there's the slew of books that came out after the mid 90s when government papers related to the fall of Singapore were released 50 years after the fact, 20 years longer than normal. That fact alone should tell you a whole lot about what was in the papers. My picks from this category are;

Sixty Years on: The Fall of Singapore revisited edited by Brian P Farrell et al (series of papers and lectures for a conference marking the anniversary of the fall)
The Defence and Fall of Singapore 1940-1942 by Brian P Farrell
Did Singapore have to Fall? Churchill and the Impregnable Fortress by Karl Hack and Kevin Blackburn (goes into a fair bit of detail about the Fortress guns)
The Guns of February by Henry Frei (one of those very rare books which looks at the campaign from the other side)
Descent into Hell by Peter Brune (a decidedly Aussie perspective on how things turned out, monster of a book with lots of details on the engagements in Johor)
The Sinking of the Prince of Wales and Repulse by Martin Middlebrook and Patrick Mahoney (incorporates dive pictures of the wrecks iirc)

(in reply to LeeChard)
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RE: Singapore - 3/25/2016 4:44:57 AM   
Anachro


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I agree with Jorge. H. P. Willmott's book is excellent, but it covers not just the Malaya campaign, but the broader campaign throughout the Southern Resource Zone and the Philippines during the opening phase of the war. Very good book. I actually quoted it in some argument I made in the "In Defense of Brave Sir Robin" thread in The War Room.

quote:

When one is fighting in defense of what is regarded as home territory, military affairs cannot be the only consideration. The problem that confronted the Americans with regard to the Philippines was that the United States had a moral commitment to the islands that could not be dismissed lightly. For all the reality of the balance of power, it was desperately difficult for the Americans to appear to abandon in its hour of need a commonwealth they were leading to nationhood. The Americans knew that the whole of the Orient, indeed the world, looked for an American response to Japanese aggression, and they knew that the Philippines, in effect, were the litmus paper of American determination and resolve. Americans were aware of the importance of kudos in the east. They appreciated the failure to protect the Philippines could be redeemed by final victory over Japan, but they knew that to appear not to lift a finger in defense of the Philippines would not be forgotten lightly.


quote:

The nub of the Singapore problem was that the naval base in the interwar period, and particularly in the course of 1941, had become the most fateful of military phenomena - a symbol whose moral value outstripped all political and strategic significance...For ten weeks the British army attempted to stand in defense of a naval base that was bereft of any British fleet unit for all but one day of the war.

By December 1941 Singapore had become nothing but a British virility symbol; its successful defense was something that would prove British resilience in the face of adversity and underpin a prestige somewhat tarnished [by other disasters in 1941]. In light of the promises made in the interwar period to the Australians and New Zealanders, Malaya and Singapore had to be held, more for political than for sound strategic or economic reasons. These were the places where the British chose to make their stand in order to demonstrate their firmness,reliability, and good faith. There could be no question of a voluntary relinquishing of the peninsula and naval base, even though such a course of action might have proved Britain's best option from the narrowly military point of view.


There's little taste of his writing.

(in reply to Arnhem44)
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RE: Singapore - 3/25/2016 10:57:43 AM   
LeeChard

 

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Lots to think about and read.
Thanks everybody.

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RE: Singapore - 3/25/2016 11:16:49 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ranger5355


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

You have to replicate the Bicycle Blitz, not wait for Petrol like Patton.

Did they bring bikes with them or did they make use of what they found?
While we're on the subject,can you recommend a book on the Malay campaign?
warspite1

I echo the recommendation of The Sinking of the Prince of Wales and the Repulse.

Turning to the land campaign, it is many years since I read the following, but I recall them as being very good books:

Singapore: The Pregnable Fortress (Elphick)
Odd Man Out (Elphick and Smith)

The former is the story of the campaign as a whole, while the latter is the story of a New Zealand-born officer of Irish descent serving with the British forces who turned traitor and provided valuable assistance to the Japanese.

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RE: Singapore - 3/25/2016 9:46:41 PM   
rustysi


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Thanks for the references.. I'll try to get some on the list.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

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RE: Singapore - 3/26/2016 12:04:30 AM   
JeffroK


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Why Singapore Fell
by Maj Gen H G Bennett

A little () self serving, it his explanation about the campaign.

Campaigns in South East Asia (The Official Indian History covering Honk Kong, Malaya & Borneo)
by Bisheshwar Prasad K D Bhargava

http://ibiblio.org/hyperwar/Japan/Monos/
Post war recollections by japanese officers.


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RE: Singapore - 3/26/2016 2:11:59 AM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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Check "The War in Malaya" by General A.E. Percival

https://thewarinmalaya.wordpress.com/

two excerpts:

"I feel sure that my readers will not wish me to recount in any detail the painful events which took place during the remainder of that day. The meeting with the Japanese commander, Lt.- Gen. Yamashita, took place in the Ford factory near Bukit Timah village in the evening. There was not much chance of bargaining, but I did what I could to ensure the safety of both troops and civilians. In this connection it should be recorded that General Yamashita never allowed the main body of his troops to enter Singapore Town."

"The fall of Singapore came as a great shock to the British public and, as usual, there was a hunt for scapegoats. Press and public charged the military commanders and the civil administration of Malaya with gross incompetence. Such has always been the British custom. In all wars many of those who have risen early to positions of responsibility have fallen by the wayside while those who later have had the advantage of fighting with the fully developed resources of the Commonwealth behind them have emerged as conquering heroes. Other nations are sometimes more generous, realizing that lessons learnt in the hard school of adversity are often more valuable than those learnt when things are easier. Thus we saw Rommel, driven out of Africa with the loss of his entire army, given another even more important command in the European theatre."

I guess he was strongly against scapegoating


< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 3/26/2016 2:13:54 AM >

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RE: Singapore - 3/27/2016 8:17:17 PM   
Speedysteve

 

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From the air perspective check out Christopher Shores 1st volume of "Bloody Shambles". Detailed info of units, pilots, their daily operations but also a useful summary of the true state of play before 7th December and the engendered views etc.

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