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New .08 Air attack rule? - 3/2/2016 5:44:46 PM   
chaos45

 

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So it seems we now have several games that have experienced 5+ turns under the new air rules.

Figured it would be good to start a topic to discuss the good and the bad of it.

For Later 1943 Soviets it seems good but not overwhelmingly powerful.

From my 6 turns or so of use so far it seems to help soften up the initial hex of attack but not give an auto win to the attacker. As it should, basically same if not diminished overall effect compared to previous bombing rules.

-Diminished you say...well yes for 1-2 hexes of attacks you actually concentrate less airpower now, as before I could use 5 or so air armies to just bomb 1 hex if I wanted and basically make it an auto win.--the new system is max 3 air attacks to you cant quite hit one single hex as massively.

-still powerful tho- as now you can spread the love out over a wider area and potentially make a bigger more devastating attack. Because you can hit every enemy unit in an entire area 3 times.

-to many losses for 1940s tech?--I don't think so, most air raids results in a couple hundred loss still, only when I hit units stacks with HQs do losses usually skyrocket, and even then it seems only the first air raid on those stacks gets a massive damage bonus.

Personally I feel the new air rules actually allow the air force to be useful and would allow you prosecute a real air war/air campaign on the eastern front.

Whats everyone else take? Esp those playing 1941 vs the Luftwaffe? As my experience so far is only later 1943 with soviets.

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RE: New .08 Air attack rule? - 3/2/2016 6:34:47 PM   
Peltonx


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Its the disrupted units = /men/guns/AFV's.

1. Its not the damage from the bombing its the loses from the ground attack after the bombing.

2. Then you have the snowball. Ok I clear out the first 3 hexes now I bomb the 2nd 3 hexes. The units that retreated now are very disrupted so less combat effective.
A solid HA will win every time, 2nd 3 hexes cleared.

3. Bomb the next 3 hexes and HA with a single PZ and win 4 out of 5 times because most of the units are disrupted = higher then normal loses + the morale losses.
Many of this units route as they are less then a CV even when CV on map says 3-5.

4. 6 Panzer Divisions in 41 can clear almost any 3x3 block of hexes and now you have 3-9 to exploit depending where you are attacking N,C or S.

5. Same as WitW only 3-6 PD's do all the fighting, the rest of your army marches forward mopping up pockets or sealing the break through area.

6. Massive savings of truck's and supplies as most units hardly fight.

7. Low exp/morale units take much higher loses then higher morale exp units.

I love it keep it this way :)




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RE: New .08 Air attack rule? - 3/2/2016 6:37:46 PM   
Peltonx


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Also as Germany for the first time I have a solid CV ratio that I know I can win 80% of the time with HA's. I have only DA 1 time with PD's vs Hermann and Pitaman. 22 turns and 1 DA this is a massive saving of supplies and men.



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RE: New .08 Air attack rule? - 3/2/2016 6:42:30 PM   
Peltonx


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Another key for me is the air combat settings.

There is a sweet spot that keeps # of planes to a min and yet you get a good return on disrupted units.

I been spam bombing now vs Hermann for 13 turns, so I can do it all summer at this tempo.

Rest LW all winter and be back strong of 42 if needed.

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RE: New .08 Air attack rule? - 3/2/2016 6:53:56 PM   
chaos45

 

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Are you not facing any Soviet air resistance?

Also hoping some others chime in on their thoughts/opinions.

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RE: New .08 Air attack rule? - 3/2/2016 7:17:28 PM   
Peltonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Are you not facing any Soviet air resistance?

Also hoping some others chime in on their thoughts/opinions.


Many sleep now.

They both have AB's near the front, to be honest I have yet to look at air to air as 41 tends to be very one sided.
LW is at the top of their skills for the war and it take Reds a good year before they can do much other then die allot.

I will check air loses ect when I get turns back.

I have never really drilled into air war much other then bombing ports and a few key attacks. Generally shut down bombers after September 42 to save on supplies ect.

I keep fighters around for air to air and 6 AB's but now with change and seeing how I saw air power used by WitW players I am simply coping what they do.


< Message edited by Pelton -- 3/2/2016 7:20:48 PM >


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RE: New .08 Air attack rule? - 3/2/2016 7:48:45 PM   
Peltonx


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not sure if people like 1 per hex or 2?

3 is simply over powered.

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RE: New .08 Air attack rule? - 3/2/2016 8:02:57 PM   
morvael


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I'll go for 2 of any kind of bombing (unit, airfield, city) for .09. If this will be too strong I will go for 1, if this will be too strong as wll I will go for weakening effectiveness of unit bombing. Old model will not return because it was extremely unfriendly to use and resulted in air being not used at all (except GS).

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RE: New .08 Air attack rule? - 3/2/2016 8:18:24 PM   
charlie0311

 

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Could apply the laws of diminishing returns. Lots of bombs cause lots of smoke and dust, hard to bomb what you can't see.

Entrenched units should, maybe, be pretty safe from air attack. Maybe they are so as is?

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RE: New .08 Air attack rule? - 3/2/2016 8:25:59 PM   
morvael


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I think even now etrenched units are pretty safe, I saw no great effect from Soviet bombings on my level 2-3 forts. But maybe bombing in the open is too good.

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RE: New .08 Air attack rule? - 3/2/2016 9:10:38 PM   
sillyflower


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Bombing seems OP'd to me which is best demonstrated by the need for new house rules. I wd also like to see the effects of bombing HQs reduced as OTT ATM. Adopting WITW tweak should do it.

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RE: New .08 Air attack rule? - 3/2/2016 10:26:50 PM   
Icier


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I can tell you from the German side (move 5) that I love the new air rules & that the Germans actually perform like their air doctrine.
But, I think, although it still early, the changes to ground attack rules may have swung around to far in favour of the soviets.
I too, carpet bomb, but now find to move the soviets on, entrenchments 1, you cant do a hasty attack,& its almost impossible to make
a unit rout( after turn 2).

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RE: New .08 Air attack rule? - 3/2/2016 10:27:40 PM   
chaos45

 

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no bombing of HQs that arent stacked with units is a pretty well general house rule I think and if its not you should inform your opponent.

In forts bombing is very reduced...were bombing is becoming effective is once you push them out of the forts into the open and then its effectively free game on the retreating column....which to be honest is real war, and one of the reasons to soviets in 41 and the Germans in 44 got smashed as bad as they did as all the roads to retreat became death zones from above.

1 per hex isnt enough so would greatly advocate againt that.....esp in 1942/early 1943 the ability to bomb german hexes and attack with the soviets is critical....even 3 per hex is a reduction on what you could do in older patches with all your air armies in one part of the front.

2 might be a good middle ground and if we see a change prolly the one to make for now then judge its effectiveness. Really we are seeing extremes right now from feedback...Germans in 1941 and Soviets in Late 43/early 44. We have no feedback from games in mid 42 to early/mid 43

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RE: New .08 Air attack rule? - 3/2/2016 11:01:27 PM   
Peltonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

Bombing seems OP'd to me which is best demonstrated by the need for new house rules.
I wd also like to see the effects of bombing HQs reduced as OTT ATM.
Adopting WITW tweak should do it.


So 1 per hex or 2 silly?

I think 2 is best it hurts, but not the end of the world, 1 is to wimpy as we have seen in the past.

1 makes AF useless and unhistorical - why I disbanded them as they sucked up more supplies then they were worth.

I am fine with 2, 3 seems OP just seems to make 41 way to easy.





< Message edited by Pelton -- 3/2/2016 11:04:20 PM >


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RE: New .08 Air attack rule? - 3/3/2016 1:05:37 AM   
charlie0311

 

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Deleted. Blather!!

< Message edited by charlie0311 -- 3/3/2016 1:58:55 AM >

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RE: New .08 Air attack rule? - 3/3/2016 3:53:38 PM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

Bombing seems OP'd to me which is best demonstrated by the need for new house rules.
I wd also like to see the effects of bombing HQs reduced as OTT ATM.
Adopting WITW tweak should do it.


So 1 per hex or 2 silly?

I think 2 is best it hurts, but not the end of the world, 1 is to wimpy as we have seen in the past.

1 makes AF useless and unhistorical - why I disbanded them as they sucked up more supplies then they were worth.

I am fine with 2, 3 seems OP just seems to make 41 way to easy.



My thinking (academic as can't play atm and both my games are on 4 dec '41 anyway) is the problem is caused by attacking on multiple hexes. Therefore have rule that a unit can be bombed in a turn a max of 3 times. In other words if you bomb a unit in hex A x3 and then retreat it to hex B, hex B can't be bombed in the same turn. 2 bombings on hex A, then hex B can be bombed once.

If rule of limiting bombing per hex was preferred, I agree with you 2 seems to be the most sensible for the reasons you give.

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RE: New .08 Air attack rule? - 3/3/2016 5:27:01 PM   
chaos45

 

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Only point I have to make for the early game 41-42...is limiting bombing also hurts the soviets ability to open/restrict German pocket attempts. As Soviet planes in general are worse in 41/42 and u need more of them to get an effect, so in effect you may limit German offensives some only to make Soviet counterattacks even less likely to succeed without a +1 rule. Just throwing that out there.

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RE: New .08 Air attack rule? - 3/3/2016 6:13:40 PM   
Manstein63


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Why not limit all level,tactical & fighter bombers 3 attacks per turn, not including ground support. Also allow fighters as many missions as they can make.

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RE: New .08 Air attack rule? - 3/3/2016 11:10:49 PM   
Mehring

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Manstein63

Why not limit all level,tactical & fighter bombers 3 attacks per turn, not including ground support. Also allow fighters as many missions as they can make.

There are other tools to consider, like increasing fuel/munitions consumption/fatigue to represent multiple missions, reducing losses, which strike me as excessive.

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