Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: New retraet rules are no treat

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> The War Room >> RE: New retraet rules are no treat Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: New retraet rules are no treat - 3/25/2016 8:24:32 AM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1624
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Denver Colorado
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

and that is of course really nice and wonderful. But I have a game that got to March 1944 and has been totally ruined by this patch. This is not a matter of 'balance' its a matter of putting out a (too be generous) poorly tested patch that fundamentally altered the game dynamics.

The change logs don't help one bit in interpreting how the game will then play.

More to point, and I have been trying to say this for the last six months, does anyone, anymore actually have a clue what the rules are?

"Poorly tested patch" is not generous. It's spiteful.

I sympathize with your problem immensely, because it happened to me,
but in the end, you made choices that took you to the point of no return.

Considering how far your game progressed, and the law of unintended consequences, it might serve to forewarn others - if you have a great game a long way down the progression, unexpected patch problems should be carefully considered.

_____________________________

Spring 2018-Playing: Demyansk Shield: Frozen Fortress; Advanced Squad Leader,
Reading: Bonhoeffer
Rulebooks: ASL (always ASL), Holland'44, Demyansk Shield: Frozen Fortress

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 91
RE: New retraet rules are no treat - 3/25/2016 9:43:40 AM   
loki100


Posts: 7408
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T
...

Remember these are beta's.

Maybe stick to official patches, or the last 2by3 patch. You have a choice.

Players for years have complained about the combat model and retreat losses. morvael is addressing those things. I guess some players have had it entrenched in there minds that 1:1 losses in combat post 41 was the norm. Guess what, it wasn't.


I realise that you will never bother to actually read what I've written but I am not arguing for 1-1 losses, I am not arguing that the German Pzr formations were anything but extremely effective to almost the end of the war.

What the patch has done is to allow the Pzrs to build up their strength. In this game, that means from late 1943 to spring 1944 they have gone from around 12-20 cv to 16-48 cv. Now that is, I really do believe, pretty unrealistic. But has a major impact on the game?

Equally as above the 'don't use the patches line' is not really valid. Each patch has really valuable changes - I wouldn't want to deny a German player in the late game the gains of better allocation of resources from pool to formations.

quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

Wait, so Pelton finally achieved mind control over Morvael et al.?


No but he is the main tester. By his own account he concentrates on the first seven turns and from the German side. I'm sure if he found an accidental pro-Soviet change he'd report it. Those who put together the changes believed the package was pretty neutral - so something went very wrong.

I reckoned that something was wrong after 3 turns of a new PBEM and the ongoing game as I saw the increase in the combat power of the Pzr divisions. I was not sure how fundamental it was - in the first instance a simply initial explanation was my opponent was just managing his offensive in a very effective way. In the second I thought it might have been a one-off inflation of strength back to where it should have been (better use of the pools etc).

There is little point in rehearsing this. As is clear I'm very fed up. This will probably be my last post in the WiTE forum. I'm sure that some people will be very happy about that,

_____________________________


(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 92
RE: New retraet rules are no treat - 3/25/2016 3:34:28 PM   
BrianG

 

Posts: 4156
Joined: 3/6/2012
Status: offline
I have seen retreat now v silly in first blizzard and now pelton turn 85.

The blizzard retreat is so far from reality as units being dislodged are moving all the guns out successfully.

For blizzard( I say from November thru Feb), we should consider giving the Germans a much higher attrition rate.

Also versus Pelton his high morale units are losing almost nothing additional under a retreat. Way to morale lenient.


Last: I still think the retreat calculation is not correct and I even think I've seen a reduction of total casualties after the retreat v just before the retreat.

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 93
RE: New retraet rules are no treat - 3/28/2016 6:16:24 PM   
RKhan


Posts: 315
Joined: 1/17/2016
From: My Secret Bunker
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

There is little point in rehearsing this. As is clear I'm very fed up. This will probably be my last post in the WiTE forum. I'm sure that some people will be very happy about that,


Not happy ->


_____________________________

RKhan

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 94
RE: New retraet rules are no treat - 3/31/2016 5:21:30 PM   
ericv

 

Posts: 325
Joined: 1/21/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RKhan


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

There is little point in rehearsing this. As is clear I'm very fed up. This will probably be my last post in the WiTE forum. I'm sure that some people will be very happy about that,


Not happy ->



neither am I.


(in reply to RKhan)
Post #: 95
RE: New retraet rules are no treat - 3/31/2016 5:48:31 PM   
ericv

 

Posts: 325
Joined: 1/21/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

I realise that you will never bother to actually read what I've written but I am not arguing for 1-1 losses, I am not arguing that the German Pzr formations were anything but extremely effective to almost the end of the war.

..........

I reckoned that something was wrong after 3 turns of a new PBEM and the ongoing game as I saw the increase in the combat power of the Pzr divisions. I was not sure how fundamental it was - in the first instance a simply initial explanation was my opponent was just managing his offensive in a very effective way. In the second I thought it might have been a one-off inflation of strength back to where it should have been (better use of the pools etc).

There is little point in rehearsing this. As is clear I'm very fed up. This will probably be my last post in the WiTE forum. I'm sure that some people will be very happy about that,


From playing against the AI on hard for over 4 years. all German settings 125, all Soviet settings 80, I can only confirm Loki's sentiment and findings. I played through 1.04 to 1.06.. to 1.07.11 and now the latest 0.8 patches.. I always fiddled around a bit, let him capture and destroy my army until september 1941 () and it made for a fun game.

But with the latest patches his tank strength during the end of 1941 and then well into 1944 climbed from 7500 to over 10.0000 and was still climbing. Mobility etc was als not an issue, but with his supply set on 125, that's not different from normal. Not really a problem against an AI, but I wouldn't even contemplate playing against a skilled Human with those numbers.
Overall it did make for a fun game, but nothing like my other games with patchs up to 1.07... felt like a completely different game, a bit of an strange result from just a patch.

I think some of the current AAR's speak for themselves, more than decent players get some very odd results against the overpowered panzer units.


There were two other things I noticed since the .08 patches.
The extreme vulnerability for destruction for soviet artillery regiments. Where they seemed to be nearly impossible to destroy up until 1.07.11, in the latest patch I played until 1945, my artillery regiment losses were staggering (1.08.07), I lost, with no other change in gameplay, a staggering 160 up until october 1941, and that almost tripled. 1000 AP's gone that was really new for me. The last other game I played to the end (1.07...) I really tried to let the german destroy these units, but losses were minimal, I never had to worry about this.

The other thing looked very odd. Playing with unrealistic settings let's the german conquer insane amounts of territory and what I would do if things got out of hand was setting the german morale to 25 and soviet to 400 and with minimal german losses I could rout all his units a couple of hexes back. Just attacking them headon made them rout, no encirclement necessary. This worked through all the patches until 1.08..... Here it no longer works, I just get normal combat results, which is really weird with these morale settings... .

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 96
RE: New retraet rules are no treat - 3/31/2016 5:58:47 PM   
ericv

 

Posts: 325
Joined: 1/21/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BrianG

I have seen retreat now v silly in first blizzard and now pelton turn 85.

The blizzard retreat is so far from reality as units being dislodged are moving all the guns out successfully.

For blizzard( I say from November thru Feb), we should consider giving the Germans a much higher attrition rate.

Also versus Pelton his high morale units are losing almost nothing additional under a retreat. Way to morale lenient.


Last: I still think the retreat calculation is not correct and I even think I've seen a reduction of total casualties after the retreat v just before the retreat.


quote:

0


last quote. next time I'll make one post :-)

My experiences are the same, german losses in 1941 are minimal at best. They did climb a bit later on in the game, starting in the end of 1942, but the AI doesn't care too much about his morale, so that is to be expected.

It is unplayable and also unrealistic. Somewhere around the internet a free copy can be got of the excellent George M. Nipe Jr's : Last Victory in Russia: The SS-Panzerkorps and Manstein’s Kharkov Counteroffensive – February-March 1943.

Take a look there at the staggering SS-losses. Morale of these units before the battle would have been a 100 I think. :-) My point anyway is that an excellent morale does not enable a soldier to headbutt bullets or artillery rounds back at the enemy .

A bullet kill's all no matter what.

(in reply to BrianG)
Post #: 97
RE: New retraet rules are no treat - 4/1/2016 2:24:21 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline
Hi, The current Beta is the first version of the game I've played. German panzer div attacked across minor river during mud turn and displaced entrenched soviet divs. Then to prove point did it again next turn. (north of Kiev) But now in summer they are just sitting in level 3 forts. German tank numbers are now half of Soviets. (only 2 soviet tank corps are on front. All the brigades have been withdrawn for months.) But this is a Beta test. I push Panzer div back once in a while but not the monsters near Kiev.
4 Panzer Div surrendered during winter 41/42

_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to ericv)
Post #: 98
RE: New retraet rules are no treat - 4/1/2016 5:10:18 AM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 4076
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ericv


quote:

ORIGINAL: RKhan


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

There is little point in rehearsing this. As is clear I'm very fed up. This will probably be my last post in the WiTE forum. I'm sure that some people will be very happy about that,


Not happy ->



neither am I.




Me either.


_____________________________


(in reply to ericv)
Post #: 99
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> The War Room >> RE: New retraet rules are no treat Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.125