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return of destroyed units - 2/24/2016 1:29:34 AM   
BrianG

 

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I am against this return of destroyed units after November 41.

Axis allies never rebuilt units.

It also seems to lower the goal of pockets which seems to be what this game is about.

Thus I vote no return!



On a side note, I can except multiple bombing raids per week.
But that must coincide with real heavy fatigue which causes damaged and destroyed planes. And lower morale.


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RE: return of destroyed units - 2/24/2016 2:46:31 AM   
charlie0311

 

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I vote with Brian, and, yes, bomb the krauts, get shot down by flak, crushing blows to morale.

ps, yet again, sov can use AP to prepare for losses, huge loses, in '42.

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RE: return of destroyed units - 2/24/2016 7:41:44 AM   
RKhan


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It would be good to hear the rationale for such a major revision which is not related to a bug. I have not played into 42 against a human yet (soon!) but I can see this will be a big savings on AP for the Soviets.

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RE: return of destroyed units - 2/24/2016 7:43:41 AM   
Denniss

 

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Axis Allies will rebuilt their destroyed units as well with .08

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RE: return of destroyed units - 2/24/2016 8:07:09 AM   
gingerbread


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There was an increased strain on the Soviet AP budget due to having to pay for air groups & air bases and increased costs of changing leaders and building SU. At the same time, increasing the Soviet AP allocation would make possible a too early transition to the Army Mark 2 like more Inf-, Cav- & Tank-XXX in '42.

The solution chosen very neatly mitigates the synthetic AP crunch constraint without increasing AP's available. It also introduces a hand to mouth aspect that, together with the gradual changes in NM, should see a continuous transformation instead of the date triggered changes before.

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RE: return of destroyed units - 2/24/2016 8:24:52 AM   
No idea

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Axis Allies will rebuilt their destroyed units as well with .08



This. Check patchnotes

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RE: return of destroyed units - 2/24/2016 8:49:11 AM   
morvael


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What gingerbread said. We don't want AP crunch to be viable strategy to be pursued by Axis player. Seemed... artificial.

edit: However I may need to look at morale/experience gain of newly built and rebuilt units as it seems to raise too fast, so they won't be usable very quickly.

< Message edited by morvael -- 2/24/2016 8:51:01 AM >

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RE: return of destroyed units - 2/24/2016 11:19:30 AM   
charlie0311

 

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M,

Standard military doctrine is to destroy the enemy combat formations, therefore, pocketing, and "destroying" sov units is not artificial. AP crunch strategy, really, standard military strategy.

Consider just a type of the more you kill the faster they come back arrangement, without any micromanagement.

Appearance of massive amounts of xxx formations, by certain dates. That seems artificial. Perhaps limiting xxx formation to two or three per turn, but allowing some surge effect, say a limit of 16 for the first available date. As in 16 cav xxx for the first winter and 16 rifle xxx for the summer '42. No 50 in one week, Jan '43, as now.

< Message edited by charlie0311 -- 2/24/2016 11:23:35 AM >

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RE: return of destroyed units - 2/24/2016 11:29:20 AM   
821Bobo


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quote:

AP crunch strategy, really, standard military strategy.


No! Soviet player has the manpower and armaments but comrade Stalin is having huge hangover and is incapable to sign the order so sorry pals no new divisions this week?

Rebuilding units should be limited by manpower and armaments not by administration.

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RE: return of destroyed units - 2/24/2016 11:43:00 AM   
SigUp

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: charlie0311

AP crunch strategy, really, standard military strategy.

No it's not. The Soviets, despite the number of units the Germans destroyed, never ran out of formations. Were many formations they utilised in 1941-42 of very low quality? Yes they were. But they were there and it caused the Germans massive headaches.

The limiting factor for formations shouldn't be an artificial construct like AP, but manpower and equipment.

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RE: return of destroyed units - 2/24/2016 11:50:08 AM   
morvael


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Exactly, the crunch should happen only in the armament/manpower departments, it's no problem to sign orders that create 100 new divisions. AP crunch was a strategy that existed only in WitE - you could have 1M men in pool and 1M armaments but you could only create 6 divisions per week. And it wasn't speed at which STAVKA was operating when there was need to raise new formations after a disaster.

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RE: return of destroyed units - 2/24/2016 12:26:09 PM   
charlie0311

 

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You guys have managed to have completely missed my point. 1) standard military strategy is to destroy enemy combat formation, yes or no? 2) if yes then the destruction of the soviet formations, yes there are not enough AP's to use the arms and manpower, (if you don't save them up, plenty if you do)and, such destruction of enemy formations is being called a "ap crunch strategy" 3) the axis strategy, killing of the Reds, is just that. Giving this strategy the title "ap crunch", ok accurate enough, but, that name is what is artificial. The strategy is to kill 'em off.

Herd effect coming.


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RE: return of destroyed units - 2/24/2016 12:45:21 PM   
Disgruntled Veteran


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Edited: Hopefully the design works well. I'm skeptical it's overkill helping soviets when no rebalancing was needed. We will see.

< Message edited by Disgruntled Veteran -- 2/24/2016 12:50:24 PM >

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RE: return of destroyed units - 2/24/2016 12:51:07 PM   
SigUp

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Disgruntled Veteran

Apply the same argument for axis. Should axis have restrictions on assigning leaders, moving divisions, su's etc? Why can't I create new formations? Sorry fuhrer, we're bound by the 2nd Law of WITE physics: No new creation of historically bound units. If the argument works for one side, use it for the other.

If the change is for balance, was the game way out of balance to begin with? Probably going take a while to find out.

Bad example since the Axis side get their units back for free anyway. I'd like to see the reaction of Axis players if they can't get their destroyed units back because they have no AP...

And as for new builds, in theory the Germans should have more formations than what their manpower can supply. Those 4 million+ armies are already over the top and you want to add more?

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RE: return of destroyed units - 2/24/2016 1:34:09 PM   
Disgruntled Veteran


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Not a bad example at all. I never lobbied for balance changes. Was the game broken because of the ap crunch? Was it out of balance? 3 out of 4 of my German games ended in defeat before 05/45 despite better than historical advances. Now it will be easier to go to soviet corps. Your argument is that APs represent unhistorical limitation. Why not do the same for axis?

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RE: return of destroyed units - 2/24/2016 1:45:17 PM   
SigUp

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Disgruntled Veteran

Not a bad example at all. I never lobbied for balance changes. Was the game broken because of the ap crunch? Was it out of balance? 3 out of 4 of my German games ended in defeat before 05/45 despite better than historical advances. Now it will be easier to go to soviet corps. Your argument is that APs represent unhistorical limitation. Why not do the same for axis?

Why should it be easier to go to corps now?

As for the argument, no it wasn't that APs represent an unhistorical limitation. The AP crunch strategy is an exploit, plain and simple. Because it will lead to a snowball effect with the front disappearing into thin air while there are still plenty of manpower and armaments in the pool. It's similar to fixing the issue of faulty swaps back in the day where you had understrength German units while the pools were full with manpower and armaments.

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RE: return of destroyed units - 2/24/2016 2:02:27 PM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: charlie0311

You guys have managed to have completely missed my point. 1) standard military strategy is to destroy enemy combat formation, yes or no? 2) if yes then the destruction of the soviet formations, yes there are not enough AP's to use the arms and manpower, (if you don't save them up, plenty if you do)and, such destruction of enemy formations is being called a "ap crunch strategy" 3) the axis strategy, killing of the Reds, is just that. Giving this strategy the title "ap crunch", ok accurate enough, but, that name is what is artificial. The strategy is to kill 'em off.

Herd effect coming.




thing is this change will lead to more realistic Soviet tactics mid-war. Historically they were almost always prepared to push an offensive further than sensible. Sometimes (eg Kharkov in early 1943) this was due to under-estimating German resiliance, others (eg the Zhitomir battles in early 1944) it was quite deliberate. You can make a strong case that a couple of Tank Armies were (in WiTE terms) destroyed at Kharkov.

With this change, its easier to accept the losses and push an offensive, thus disrupting the German lines. Hopefully it leads to more mobile warfare, less 'hexes to Berlin' and so on.

You are still paying the arms pts, ground elememnts and raw manpower cost.

Now is it properly balanced in this form? Not got a clue but steadily the .08 patching system has added to the demand falling on Soviet admin pts to the extent that its not till 1944 am I really thinking about *perhaps* swapping an army between fronts or replacing some commanders - something that historically was done on a regular basis

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RE: return of destroyed units - 2/24/2016 2:55:10 PM   
swkuh

 

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Arm pts, manpower, equipment, etc. but no recognition of admin delays related to raising new replacement units. IRL there had to be delay from ordering to doing.

Suggest 1 or 2 weeks delay and a limit to how many per week. When, as Axis, a bunch are lost, then they all come back at same time. Seems wrong.

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RE: return of destroyed units - 2/24/2016 3:07:29 PM   
morvael


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Every existing unit usually has some elements that remain in the rear (barracks with some clerks, security crew, some troops on rotation and special assignments, those granted leave, those out of hospital but not yet sent to the front, those undergoing specialist training). It can be assumed that a "shadow" of every unit at the front is present all the time somewhere at home. When main body at the front is destroyed, that "shadow" becomes the actual unit, because all that's left. And there will be people coming and going as well as replacements arriving every day. It can be argued that putting unit on the map immediately but making it frozen (so not operational) is adequate solution. Units in reinforcement queue can't take replacements and train, and that wasn't the case when a destroyed unit was reforming from its rear area remains. This process was quite natural, so there was no need to order it, orders are required only if some extra men are to be sent immediately (represented by raising TOE above 20%) or unit to be disbanded (keeping it at 20% and disbanding when it will be unfrozen). I don't think this process that we have currently is really disjointed from reality. There are bigger problems in WitE mechanics than this :)

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RE: return of destroyed units - 2/24/2016 3:39:48 PM   
Wuffer

 

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Regarding the overall balance, this beta tries to adress this too. With unit experience now included as a major factor in the final outcome of a battle, it should be harder for the Red Army to beat at least highly trained German units.

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RE: return of destroyed units - 2/24/2016 3:43:49 PM   
Wuffer

 

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So there are several significant changes, which should not viewed isolated.
(this might be good and bad at the same time, no offense, plse *gg*)

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RE: return of destroyed units - 2/24/2016 5:07:31 PM   
swkuh

 

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Delay related to executing orders is the issue, not writing orders. Writing orders is easy, but finding the bodies & gear and getting that to assembly points is hard and gets harder the worse the national situation.

Point taken that replaced units are not immediately effective; seeing them on the game map while refitting seems unusual. Ghost units.

Think this thread is more about discussing issues than ordering up corrective patches.

BTW, what are the bigger issues in game mechanics? (Could write some serious posts in re that.)

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RE: return of destroyed units - 2/28/2016 8:42:03 AM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: charlie0311

You guys have managed to have completely missed my point. 1) standard military strategy is to destroy enemy combat formation, yes or no?




Yes because purpose is to destroy fighting capability. I don't think that any one IRL is interested in fictional APs. IRL destroyed formations take much longer to get up to speed than this game allows. For example, some specialists take up to 2 years to train and were usually given very high priority for evacuation to safety. In game, fighting capability is measured by morale and experience. The reality is more complex but M+E in game perhaps just encompass more then the narrow definitions of those words.

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RE: return of destroyed units - 2/28/2016 9:45:49 AM   
charlie0311

 

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All very interesting. If I may be so bold, I would prefer.. to not pay any of my precious AP's to resurrect destroyed units. If I want new units it would my choice to "pay up" for them or not.

IGL, that's in game life, the sov have plenty of AP's to have 100+ fully trained RD's ready to go in May '42. And for those who like tank xxx, you can also have 9 of these. And, I have the save files to prove it. Used to have them in AI game, so no password, now in real game and password protected, so, hmmm, probably want to keep the password secret. Or, could spend many more months in another game with a kind of "public" password.

The stuff referred to above is in addition to the front line units which have been on the map since blizzard.

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RE: return of destroyed units - 2/29/2016 11:58:37 AM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: charlie0311

. If I may be so bold, I would prefer.. to not pay any of my precious AP's to resurrect destroyed units. If I want new units it would my choice to "pay up" for them or not.



Who doesn't prefer getting freebies?

The AP system is to regulate/moderate some of the behaviour of each side in relation to C&C issues but also production of new soviet formations. If something that cost now becomes free, then the supply of APs needs to come down or other costs to rise: unless the change was purely for play balance.


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Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

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RE: return of destroyed units - 2/29/2016 12:31:10 PM   
morvael


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To prevent AP crunch strategy being viable we have two options: refund APs for destroyed units (hoping player will use them for that), or rebuild units for (nearly) free. The problem with refunding is that it allows players to use those APs on something else, which is wrong (and there is risk of hitting maximum number of APs allowed, losing them in the process). If a bunch of rifle divisions get destroyed it means you are left with some infantry officers, NCOs and privates training somewhere in the Urals, and some men in hospitals across USSR. It doesn't mean you suddenly have institutional knowledge to make them count as a tank brigade, new air regiment, or that you can use those APs to make a HQ buildup or prepare organizing a new line of forts. On similar grounds AP refund from putting units on static was removed and was replaced by small price of 1 AP to be paid to switch units to static AND back. APs are supposed to represent day-to-day workings of the general staff, and should not be allowed to be massively refunded and reinvested in something else. I would even prefer for unspent APs to be lost, not carried over to next turn.

It's another matter that there really should be an option to change TOEs of units to somethings else for an AP cost and experience hit, because sometimes indeed a rifle division was reorganized as a tank or mech corps (so outside of default TOE progression handled by TOE upgrades). But lack of this option doesn't mean AP refunds are a good solution. Currently you have to disband units and build new ones. And you can do that with those that were rebuilt for free.

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RE: return of destroyed units - 2/29/2016 12:31:49 PM   
Disgruntled Veteran


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That was my point Sillyflower. While free (ish) rebuildsare logical, it creates a shift in balance that probably wasn't needed. Doesn't take a genius to figure out how to maximize hundreds of "free" AP Points to transition to corps level even faster. Not a good move imo.

There is a small drawback for the red team in that you lose a lot of armaments spent on rebuilds instead of front liners and you need rail to get these units to the front. Still, I'd welcome the change as soviet. Games that last until 45 are such a nuisance.

And free rebuilds of axis allies is hardly a boon. Most allies never have the economy to rebuild fresh divisions. Just my thoughts. My 0.08 game will take a long time for any feedback is available.

< Message edited by Disgruntled Veteran -- 2/29/2016 12:32:52 PM >

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RE: return of destroyed units - 2/29/2016 12:45:37 PM   
SigUp

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Disgruntled Veteran

That was my point Sillyflower. While free (ish) rebuildsare logical, it creates a shift in balance that probably wasn't needed. Doesn't take a genius to figure out how to maximize hundreds of "free" AP Points to transition to corps level even faster. Not a good move imo.

You still haven't explained to me how this is supposed to make corps transition faster. I'm not sure that's even the case because

a) when you get so many units destroyed as to fall into the AP-crunch of the past you simply lack frontline units. In those cases it's nuts to build corps because you need the divisions and brigades just to patch up the frontline.

b) for those who have enough units who previously wouldn't bother rebuilding every destroyed units, it can actually in theory delay their corps transition a bit because they can't stock up 500 AP to be used once 1943 arrives since as long as you have more than 0 APs those rebuilds aren't free. They are only free if you have no APs on the bank.

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RE: return of destroyed units - 2/29/2016 12:49:41 PM   
morvael


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By the way - totally free rebuilds of rifle divisions (the workhorse of Red Army) were always present for the first four months of the campaign, and they always worked fine. IMHO if the Red Army losses massive amounts of units in WitE after that date, it means the Red player is in trouble (maybe he is of lower skill than his opponent) and will need that help. On the other hand, a few units rebuilt here and there won't hurt balance in the long run. And maybe (I hope, but I guess chances are slim) someone will change their play style thanks to those rebuilds, and will go the historical route of going deep and hard with their breakthroughs, risking units but creating bigger havoc than boring pushing one hex at a time towards Berlin. In my book this is a win-win situation. The only type unhappy will be those players who want German sudden-death victories against weaker opponents, which will be harder to pull off, but IMHO these kind of victory should be just a dream to be pursued, not a common event.

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RE: return of destroyed units - 2/29/2016 5:49:36 PM   
Mehring

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael
And maybe (I hope, but I guess chances are slim) someone will change their play style thanks to those rebuilds, and will go the historical route of going deep and hard with their breakthroughs, risking units but creating bigger havoc than boring pushing one hex at a time towards Berlin. In my book this is a win-win situation. The only type unhappy will be those players who want German sudden-death victories against weaker opponents, which will be harder to pull off, but IMHO these kind of victory should be just a dream to be pursued, not a common event.

Not that it's wrong, but with the new experience based losses sudden death victories will be as likely as ever. German losses need raising and maybe Russia needs more manpower so the net effect is lower experience for Russians. And to encourage different game play I think you need to give some stick as well as the carrot.

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