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Quick test of the .08.08 air rules and capacity - 2/18/2016 8:10:37 AM   
loki100


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Very quick experiment with the new air rules. I did the same turn 3 times.

The first was my normal turn and that is the basis for the ongoing game. The second I did nothing apart from bomb LW bases. The third I did nothing but ground attacks.

For both of these variants I used the auto-assign routine and simply clicked on the target hex three times. If I had managed the allocations manually I would have had more planes but didn't want to spend too long over this.

As a baseline, my bombers were:


oob

In the real turn, the main combats were:


air1

ground1

German losses were 12,000 killed, 20,000 wounded, 600 guns and 100 tanks. Their air losses were 80 in air combat, 20 to flak, 3 on the ground (I bombed one recon base near Kiev) and 19 operational.

This shows the air losses for the airfield bombing variant:


air2

That means they lost 60 in air combat, 13 to flak, 102 on the ground, 104 as operational.

Actual attacks:


air2a

Final version was the ground attacks only.


land2

So essentially I was able to kill over 5,000 Germans due to ground attacks. As above I could have managed more if I'd micro-managed the plane allocations and targets. I don't think I hit any HQ.

To me, this is perhaps a bit more than desirable but I have run up high fatigue levels in my airforce so this might be hard to sustain. I think as a personal house rule for now I'm going to adopt the idea of a maximum of 2 strikes per hex?

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RE: Quick test of the .08.08 air rules and capacity - 2/18/2016 8:34:20 AM   
morvael


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Do you have totals of your aircraft losses in those three variants?

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RE: Quick test of the .08.08 air rules and capacity - 2/18/2016 8:51:52 AM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Do you have totals of your aircraft losses in those three variants?


Basically hunting his airbases was expensive, the baseline turn includes losses in ground support missions so the airbase+ground support would grind down both sides. The ground attack spam version cost me a lot as well (almost as many as I lost in the 'balanced' approach). So I don't think this is as one-sided as it looked, but it will force both sides to keep their airforces in operation or the scope for heavy losses is there?






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RE: Quick test of the .08.08 air rules and capacity - 2/18/2016 8:58:51 AM   
morvael


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The ideal would be to see:
1) significant effect of bombing, but at the price of heavy losses - so it would be unsustainable in the long term, yet could have some impact on ground ops for a short time
2) the rise of the importance of airforce, where if you have none at all the enemy will hurt you a lot - so that no one would ever dare to think of disbanding Luftwaffe for manpower

Are we there yet? Maybe not, but closer.

< Message edited by morvael -- 2/18/2016 10:00:12 AM >

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RE: Quick test of the .08.08 air rules and capacity - 2/18/2016 10:07:19 AM   
VigaBrand

 

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That is from our game.
Interesting is the start and the impact. The germans could crush nearly 5.000 planes in the first turn (with the old rules, not sure if something changes for the first turn).
Now the german air force could had an impact in the first weeks and pressures the red airforce, so that they couldn't rebuilt without pressure.
You actualy had so much planes because we had two years time with a very, very calm air war.
For our game is the two hex rule okay or you fight (as I want) against all my air bases. This will reduce our planes and will had not so much impact for our land war.
It sounds very interesting now and I agree to morvael, we now had an air war.
For sure, I'm not sure if this is imba or not. That will only shows the new games.


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RE: Quick test of the .08.08 air rules and capacity - 2/18/2016 3:24:47 PM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

The ideal would be to see:
1) significant effect of bombing, but at the price of heavy losses - so it would be unsustainable in the long term, yet could have some impact on ground ops for a short time
2) the rise of the importance of airforce, where if you have none at all the enemy will hurt you a lot - so that no one would ever dare to think of disbanding Luftwaffe for manpower

Are we there yet? Maybe not, but closer.


I started a bit worried at this change but I think it is pretty good as it stands. If one side strips away all their air power (Soviet players hiding the VVS in 1941, German players disbanding the Luftwaffe 'for the manpower') then this change means you can really get hurt.

Looking over the airforce. For the two extreme variants, I had no bombers left that could do ground support missions (and these are still the key to winning the war) as they had around 90% of their miles used up. Ok I could have mangaged this better than I did but if you want to do real damage this way, that is the price you'll pay. In both I had lots more planes damaged and I think (bit harder to be sure) that I had lower morale.

So it looks like a trick for a special reason.

On the other side of the coin, I often have too many planes on-map simply to get round the first mission rules for ground attacks. You can now prune back your on-map commitment as you can use the same squadrons as you need - and rotate them off when they are exhausted.

But I won't now be stripping the front of air cover, even in mud turns, but I can balance out overall truck and supply demand by using less planes at any one time.

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RE: Quick test of the .08.08 air rules and capacity - 2/20/2016 12:55:24 PM   
Mehring

 

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Modern Russian planes should have their flights restricted as long as high octane AVGAS cannot be made a separate resource. There was never enough to go round, even with lend lease, as the Russian oil industry actually greatly contracted during the war in stead of expanding and improving high octane production as required. Obsolete planes like U-2VS should be unlimited, IL-2s and single engine fighters particularly, should either be subject to distance or number of flight restrictions per turn or rack up very high fatigue.

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RE: Quick test of the .08.08 air rules and capacity - 2/20/2016 3:58:55 PM   
morvael


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Would be nice to have different fuel types and thus separate restrictions for various weapons... Not in this engine though.

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RE: Quick test of the .08.08 air rules and capacity - 2/20/2016 5:08:21 PM   
chaos45

 

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IDK still undecided on the new air rules...I dont think the effects are more than historical for complete air supremacy....and maximum effort comes at a cost....I lost something like 500 planes in one week when i did maximum effort on T116 and noticed reduced air raid strength and a massive drain on my airframe replacement pool this turn esp in IL2 as I had lost 200-300 of those in one week, plus built 8 new air grps.....Also you can run out of fuel/ammunition on your airbases actaully had some run out of ammo basically on T116 lol.

If Pelton had had any fighter cover at all my air losses Im sure would have been higher. Somewhere he still has 1,000 German Fighters but I havent seen them make an appearance in awhile so basically im bombing him with 6k tactical bombers completely un-opposed during a major offensive where his units are being pushed in to open ground and bombed alot....so in that case losses are pretty realistic.


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RE: Quick test of the .08.08 air rules and capacity - 2/21/2016 9:08:20 AM   
Mehring

 

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By T116, most German fighters are withdrawn. The Axis are then heavily reliant on minor powers' fighters to try and fill the yawning gap. When high morale/experience fighters show up, they are lethal but Axis will never be able to cover all the front.

Russian losses of 500pw is extraordinary without fighter intervention. I think opposed raid data is needed.

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RE: Quick test of the .08.08 air rules and capacity - 2/21/2016 3:47:47 PM   
chaos45

 

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I bombed alot to say the least lol....I basically ran 7 air armies out of ammunition bombing German units during T116 so between AA/fatigue Im sure operational losses were a good chunk of them. Not to mention every single one of my other air armies bombed 9+ times each so was alot of bombing raids and even without enemy air interception you typically lose 1-5 planes per bombing raid even on targets without alot of AA cover.

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RE: Quick test of the .08.08 air rules and capacity - 2/21/2016 4:59:41 PM   
Mehring

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

I bombed alot to say the least lol....I basically ran 7 air armies out of ammunition bombing German units during T116 so between AA/fatigue Im sure operational losses were a good chunk of them. Not to mention every single one of my other air armies bombed 9+ times each so was alot of bombing raids and even without enemy air interception you typically lose 1-5 planes per bombing raid even on targets without alot of AA cover.

Effect and losses must vary according to their mission. I paused a message level 7 ground battle at the point air support attacks ended. On the receiving end were included two mixed flak battalions, so 88s and smaller, 69/75 morale, average about 85% ToOE. The results seem way overpowered to me for 40 planes doing one raid.




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“The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.”
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RE: Quick test of the .08.08 air rules and capacity - 2/21/2016 5:06:17 PM   
morvael


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When I send 100 bombers I get 10 killed

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RE: Quick test of the .08.08 air rules and capacity - 2/21/2016 5:07:32 PM   
chaos45

 

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I would say to test it something is off in your example....I got no results near like that from air strikes. Even when hitting his stacks that were stacked with an HQ I rarely got losses that high. An that was with average 100-200 bombers in each raid.

Im guessing some artillery or something was mixed in as well or airpower is way more potent when assisting an actual ground attack than it is in bomb unit.

From 100-200 bomber air raids German average losses were around 300 men. This over alot of air raids. On the high end- 200+ bombers against 3 german divisions in an open unfortified hex I can get 700-800 in losses in a bomb unit mission. On the low end 50-100 men.......so is alot of variance which seems to depend on AA protection, terrain, fortification level, and target density. Stacks of 3 german divisions in an open not fortified hex are the ideal target from air strikes based on the casualties I was seeing generated---which IMO is how it should be...is a dense target with no protection.


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RE: Quick test of the .08.08 air rules and capacity - 2/21/2016 5:29:45 PM   
Mehring

 

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Those are 100% air inflicted casualties. Another variable though, is that it is vs my attacking units. I would expect a slightly higher loss rate for such an attack, but not that much. It's fairly normal, too, Axis losses are mostly due to IL2s by 1943 in my experience.

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“The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.”
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RE: Quick test of the .08.08 air rules and capacity - 2/21/2016 6:13:34 PM   
Mehring

 

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Here's another one hot off the press. 102 IL-2M3s this time and over a thousand destroyed vs 700 to all other causes. It includes 22 x 105mm and 7 x 150mm Howitzers, weapons that would be dug in behind the lines, no more exposed in an assault than in a defensive battle. German AFVs remain virtually invulnerable to everything.




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< Message edited by Mehring -- 2/21/2016 7:15:18 PM >


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“The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.”
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RE: Quick test of the .08.08 air rules and capacity - 2/21/2016 6:36:03 PM   
chaos45

 

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yes this is something Pelton has reported as well that by 1943 its basically impossible for the Germans to attack because for some reason they always lose more than the Soviets. I could see trying to attack into 102 Tactical aircraft would be a rough day, not sure it should be as rough as the battle report/results are at current.

That effect has always been in the game our current debate is on the new addition of 3x unit bombing per hex.

Would say it has merit to look into as to why German losses are so high attacking from 1943 on. My guess is its due to the amount of Soviet artillery/airsupport pounding the attacking formations from 1943 on....as those ToEs for the soviets add lots more guns/mortars even at the divisional level. As its should be closer to parity due to higher German experience, if not in the germans favor if they win the battle most of the time.

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RE: Quick test of the .08.08 air rules and capacity - 2/21/2016 7:24:12 PM   
Mehring

 

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If Pelton regards it impossible for Axis to attack in 1943, that's speaks more about him than the game. I have never stopped attacking, encircling and destroying Russian units in 1942-3 and vs well known, good players. He never seems to gripe about the invulnerable German AFVs. I wonder why not? ;)

If you look at the data I've supplied, it is quite explicit. It is the Russian air units that cause the majority of destroyed and disrupted Axis units, ground units causing most damage. Perhaps data from an attack without Russian ground support would be useful, to see if ground units take the place of air units in causing losses. I noticed a long time ago that attacking Russian guards in 1942 caused high losses and think high casualties in such attacks are justified, otherwise there is no incentive to encircle. Please don't tell me the Axis are incapable of this, certain players have decided to be incapable and I have no time for their whingeing.

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“The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.”
¯ Thomas Jefferson

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RE: Quick test of the .08.08 air rules and capacity - 2/21/2016 9:26:05 PM   
chaos45

 

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Interesting take on things Mehring---but seeing my Soviet army in 1943 compared to what I see of his army even with inflated German OOBs and I agree with Pelton him attacking is a waste of troops, I would love for him to attack as it would bleed his elite formations down even more quickly since I kill more of his men than he replaces every single week as is, and basically have been since the end of 1942. So anything the German player does that increases their losses just makes the German army degrade more quickly in the late game.

Alot is most likely also Soviet play styles, if the soviet player decides to be a punching bag then so be it....an aggressive Soviet defense in 42/43 will very quickly degrade the Germans offensive ability. Once you have degraded the offensive ability you switch to a grind strategy until you see a weak point then breakthrough/exploit with masses of Soviet mobile formations and the Germans are powerless.

Trying to plug a dam with 2 german panzer corps even at decent CV when facing 30+ Soviet mobile/cav corps is suicide for the panzers. Esp when u also factor in 15-20 CV soviet guard rifle corps that can easily walk over and smash the relief forces.

An lets say you have all your panzers in one spot still---how are you hold the north and center then??? as the soviet rifle corps should easily be smashing German infantry only stacks back in those sectors in 1943 esp with artillery division support.

IDK just seems we are playing completely different games- as my 1943 Soviet army is extremely powerful and the one Brian has against Pelton is even more powerful than mine and he isnt as far time wise in the game.

The last game I started ended in March 1942 with massive German defeat- 17+ divisions or some such---after that the German player gave up. As in March I had just wiped out an entire panzer army and was still pushing the Germans back almost all along the line---and with that defeat a secondary encirclement of another German army was going to happen the next turn.

Which is why I dont get all the crying for more powerful soviets...its not needed if you know how to play as the soviets sorry, just isnt. Build the right crap fight in the right manner, and you can win as the soviets even in the early game against the Germans. My 2 cents from several games...most ending early with German players giving up. Doesnt seem many German players even with weaker Soviets in old patches could get historical results as is.

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