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US cannot declare war? - 1/26/2016 1:35:53 AM   
Numdydar

 

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This is new to me. I moved into the Romanian area as the USSR and did not contest as Germany. I go a popup saying that the US could never declare war on Germany/Italy

What is up with that? Also, if the US declares war against Japan and Germany never declares war against the US, how does that impact lend lease to the USSR/UK?

Has anyone ever played something like this out before?
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RE: US cannot declare war? - 1/26/2016 1:51:45 AM   
DQ2004


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It happened in the game I'm currently playing.
It is why the USSR wants to be careful when claiming Bessarabia, because their bluff could be called.
If the Germans deny the claim, they lose Romania to the Soviets, but if the US entry pool can't cope with the chits that will be withdrawn, then the above is indeed the consequence.
Which means that the USSR is in big trouble. The Germans can relax for a little bit about that second front.

In terms of US entry, the game will continue to put chits in and out of the pool as events transpire, so the US can still choose to send Lend Lease to the USSR and Western Allies. Indeed, you could probably be very clever about it and deliberately put US units in the way of German units until eventually they'll be forced to declare war on the Americans.
(e.g. invade somewhere with British units and then reinforce with US forces).
Not only that, it could mean big trouble for the Japanese because the US would be best to concentrate on Japan, finish them off early and in the meantime try to force that declaration from the Germans (perhaps put some juicy targets in the way and invite a surprise declaration - you lose those units, but you're in the war. Which is more important?).

Screenshot of the US entry options in my current game, just after the US chose War Appropriations (in Jul-Aug 41).
The very next turn they declared war on Japan and slaughtered their convoys.
So it doesn't look good for Japan already.
Note the comment on the right - 'Chance of declaring war on Germany or Italy: never' ...oops.





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RE: US cannot declare war? - 1/26/2016 2:20:59 AM   
paulderynck


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Well, the OP said it was not contested so no chits should have been lost so this would have been a bug - unless maybe the same turn the US lost a chit for East Poland and/or the Baltic States being occupied while having all their chits on the Japanese side? But the effects would be as you say, except:

quote:

ORIGINAL: DQ2004
Indeed, you could probably be very clever about it and deliberately put US units in the way of German units until eventually they'll be forced to declare war on the Americans.
(e.g. invade somewhere with British units and then reinforce with US forces).


...but under Multiple States of War rules the Germans can attack those units without declaring war. They'd be treated as "Peacekeepers". Eventually the kind of power the US can put into units and defensive ground support would mean the Germans and Italians should bide their time and try to get the maximum damage out of a surprise impulse.

Another issue with these "strategies" (if done intentionally, they are referred to as the "No US in Europe" and "No US in the Pacific" gambits - WARNING: don't try both in the same game!) is that the US will never get to their maximum production multiplier unless the axis power involved DoWs the US.

I think the "No US in the Pacific" gambit can be deadlier than the "No US in Europe" gambit, because eventually the US will pass the Unrestricted naval warfare entry option and be able to go after the Japanese in the Pacific anyway, with CW units doing the invading and ground fighting.

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RE: US cannot declare war? - 1/26/2016 2:41:48 AM   
DQ2004


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In my game there was just one chit left in the Ger/It entry pool. The denial of the claim means the Soviets are then at war with Romania. A Soviet declaration of war on Romania can result in two chits being withdrawn, which is exactly what happened.
No bug. If there are not enough chits left in the pool to withdraw, the US can then never declare war on Germany or Italy.

Good point re the peacekeepers. The game will be very interesting...

< Message edited by DQ2004 -- 1/26/2016 3:43:27 AM >


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RE: US cannot declare war? - 1/26/2016 3:35:54 AM   
juntoalmar


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I never knew of this rule. Waiting to see my opponents face if I ever make it happen... bwa ha ha ha!!!

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RE: US cannot declare war? - 1/26/2016 3:40:37 AM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DQ2004

In my game there was just one chit left in the Ger/It entry pool. The denial of the claim means the Soviets are then at war with Romania. A Soviet declaration of war on Romania can result in two chits being withdrawn, which is exactly what happened.
No bug. If there are not enough chits left in the pool to withdraw, the US can then never declare war on Germany or Italy.

Good point re the peacekeepers. The game will be very interesting...

I understand that for your game. I was referring to what Numdydar posted.

(Edit: Sorry for the slang, "OP" = original poster)

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 1/26/2016 4:43:42 AM >


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RE: US cannot declare war? - 1/26/2016 3:52:29 AM   
DQ2004


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
I understand that for your game. I was referring to what Numdydar posted.
(Edit: Sorry for the slang, "OP" = original poster)


Ah yes, I see what you mean.
In his game, then it must have been that there were no chits in the pool, as the USSR occupying Bessarabia could only take one chit out of the game IIRC.

Cheers

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RE: US cannot declare war? - 1/26/2016 7:07:38 AM   
Joseignacio


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To me, the original post is not clear.

If he moved into the Romanian area, does this mean Bessarabia or any part of Romania? If only Bessarabia, by agreement (ceded) or through war?

Only if they are at war, IMO, there should be this event, since the USSR player needs to lose one chit that the allies already don't have, to trigger that. Although I can't recall what is the roll they need to get to lose one.

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RE: US cannot declare war? - 1/26/2016 5:55:52 PM   
paulderynck


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One automatic and 80% chance for a second chit loss. But no chit loss if Germany (acting on behalf of Romania) accepts the claim.

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 1/26/2016 6:57:47 PM >


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RE: US cannot declare war? - 1/26/2016 7:29:06 PM   
Centuur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

This is new to me. I moved into the Romanian area as the USSR and did not contest as Germany. I go a popup saying that the US could never declare war on Germany/Italy

What is up with that? Also, if the US declares war against Japan and Germany never declares war against the US, how does that impact lend lease to the USSR/UK?

Has anyone ever played something like this out before?


What did you do exactly? Did the USSR claim Bessarabia in the DoW form? Or were you able to simply move a Soviet land unit into Bessarabia without claiming Bessarabia?

A saved game (autosave from before the DoW phase) with instructions how you did this, would be helpfull.

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RE: US cannot declare war? - 1/27/2016 6:54:34 AM   
Joseignacio


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He needs to have been at war to lose the chit(s) and get the result of forbidding USA intervention permanently.
Unless there was a bug, of course.

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RE: US cannot declare war? - 1/28/2016 4:11:05 AM   
Numdydar

 

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Here is the sequence of events by the USSR

Declared war on the Baltic states all on the same impulse.
Took the special action to claim Bessarabia - a popup came up saying that if this action is chosen, the US may not ever be able to go to war with Germany/Italy. I thought 'Well that never going to happen' lol Silly me pressed Ok to continue
Germany did not contest the claim
Moved into Eastern Poland, took over the Baltic states, and Bessarabia.

Voilà - Needed to remove two chits and only had one left in the Germany box. So no war with the US.

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RE: US cannot declare war? - 1/28/2016 6:36:36 AM   
paulderynck


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You could have lost a chit each for Eastern Poland and the Baltic States. That's probably what happened. The warning message was what was misleading.

How many chits were in each of the two US Entry pools to start the game?

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 1/28/2016 7:41:27 AM >


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RE: US cannot declare war? - 1/28/2016 8:05:13 AM   
Joseignacio


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Yep.

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RE: US cannot declare war? - 1/28/2016 1:45:17 PM   
Courtenay


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At this point, I would start over. When there is a such a major rules mistake, so early in the game, there is really not much reason to continue. You were playing one game, and the rules were for another.

Also, this is why I always put three chits in the Ge/It pool at the start of the game. I expect to get one chit from the Germans declaring war on Poland, lose one the Allies declaring war on Germany, and to lose one when the Russians take Eastern Poland. This leaves two. If playing with oil (I do), I do not expect Germany to contest Bessarabia. If, however, I only had one chit in pool, then there would be an 80% chance of no US DOW, and there is no way I would risk that.

There is no reason to take the Baltic states in 1939, unless the US gets really unlucky with its chit draws, and you want to remove a really bad chit. Wait for 1940, with the horrible chits that the US gets then. Indeed, barring a 1940 DOW on German (not impossible, but unlikely), there is no reason to do so before N/D 1940.

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RE: US cannot declare war? - 1/28/2016 4:14:04 PM   
Numdydar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

You could have lost a chit each for Eastern Poland and the Baltic States. That's probably what happened. The warning message was what was misleading.

How many chits were in each of the two US Entry pools to start the game?


2 for Germany, 1 for Japan at start.
Got 1 in Germany for the Polish declare
Lost one for the Allies declare
Lost one for the Baltic declare
Lost one more due to a random roll of some kind. Do not recall why/how
Then lost one for Romania which I did not have which caused the event to occur

< Message edited by Numdydar -- 1/28/2016 5:21:16 PM >

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RE: US cannot declare war? - 1/28/2016 11:05:06 PM   
paulderynck


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The random loss you mention could have been occupying East Poland - 70% chance which is separate from the 40% chance for the Baltic States.

Still if you saw the game telling you that you were losing a chit for declaring war on Romania then either it's a bug or somehow the control of the Germans pleading "no contest" went haywire.

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