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Some simple questions about the Japanese economy - 1/18/2016 9:19:20 AM   
morejeffs

 

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Assuming Scen 1 or equivalents.
A. How long can the J economy ignore not taking Palemburg? When would it crash? And before that...How long would it be before players change their production plans in worry?
B. Are resources every a bottle neck? Are supplies a bottle neck? Or is just fuel/oil?

Just trying to understand the misery of a non boosted Japanese economy.
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RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy - 1/18/2016 9:51:38 AM   
Encircled


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A. It all depends on how keen you are on your production. If you haven't got it (and the question is why the hell not? :-))then you are going to have to do some serious belt tightening if you want the game to last longer than a year. I suspect (though haven't seen it) that you'd start to collapse after that. Pax or others would know for sure.

B. Not if set up your convoys properly. You only really start to struggle when you get cut off from the DEI

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RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy - 1/18/2016 11:24:58 AM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morejeffs

Assuming Scen 1 or equivalents.
A. How long can the J economy ignore not taking Palemburg? When would it crash? And before that...How long would it be before players change their production plans in worry?

There is absolutely no simple answer to this question. It depends so much on whether the Japanese player is a really strong (Grandmaster level) or just an average player. Also depends on whether he is focussed on implementing a good strategic plan or is one of the typical Japanese payers who mistakes irrelevant pyrotechnic tactical forays for proper strategy.

A weak player will need Palembang within 3-4 months. A grandmaster level player can survive until mid 1943 without capturing Palembang. The other oilfields captured in a timely manner will more than suffice. This requires proper use of the navy which is not to sail continuously in search of tactical pyrotechnic opportunities which provide no lasting strategic benefit. It also means knowing what you are doing with Japanese industry and not being seduced by the potential new toys.[/I]


B. Are resources every a bottle neck? Are supplies a bottle neck? Or is just fuel/oil?

Supplies are always a bottleneck. More specifically getting supplies, fuel and oil to the correct places is usually the problem. This game is about logistics, not the pyrotechnic actions which so many players indulge in. Managing the demand curve, not the supply curve, is central to playing Japan well.

Just trying to understand the misery of a non boosted Japanese economy.


Alfred

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RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy - 1/18/2016 11:56:45 AM   
BBfanboy


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There is nothing simple about the Japanese economy. As Alfred has pointed out the needs are driven by your strategy and your use of your forces, and decisions about the economy require at least a fuzzy crystal ball picture of how you expect the war to unfold.

That said, a number of players have posted very good aids to the new IJ player such as the economy flow chart, and starting (turn 1) settings for every unit. Search the forum War Room to find these nuggets, or look for the thread listing all the references for new players.

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RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy - 1/18/2016 12:22:31 PM   
RogerJNeilson


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Love that comment 'pyrotechnic tactical forays' a gem!

Roger

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RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy - 1/18/2016 12:56:00 PM   
RichardAckermann

 

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Yea, Alfred is so very right. Cruising around for killing ships of minor importance can leave you dry at the worst possible moment.

I was playing on the very hard AI level a long time plus it's my first game ever and that slowed my progress down due to extreme losses in all kinds of combat. Took me 8 months to capture singapore and palembang. And still I do not get that fuel because of the allied aircraft from Java.
I saved HI and fuel by turning off armament production if I had over 30K reserve. Some other things, too. Since I'm playing vs the AI, I do not have serious problems. The AI does not seem to exploit the situation.

How long a japanese can make it with low fuel also depends on the attrition you can do to him. Make him move his fleet around.

Resources are less a bottleneck to me. They are more abundant and can be moved by a lot of ships.
They can also be ferried over from korea or china where passage is considerably safer than from DEI all the way up north.

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RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy - 1/18/2016 8:33:16 PM   
dr.hal


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To me, as the Japanese player, capturing Palembang in prime condition is a top priority... to me, even more important than Singapore. Singapore will fall eventually (as will the PI) but getting Palembang without disruption is a real feather in the economic cap (so to speak). From there you can have your own "pyrotechnic" display!

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RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy - 1/18/2016 8:46:56 PM   
GetAssista

 

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Resources are hardly a problem, Korea+Hokkaido+Sakhalin can meet all the needs on their own given the shipment.
Purely from industrial balance, you have 355 days worth of oil and 340 days worth of fuel in Home Islands in Stock 1. But fuel can run out considerably faster of you run around a lot with your big combat ships.

Other than that, always listen to Alfred

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RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy - 1/18/2016 9:18:52 PM   
Rio Bravo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: morejeffs

Assuming Scen 1 or equivalents.
A. How long can the J economy ignore not taking Palemburg? When would it crash? And before that...How long would it be before players change their production plans in worry?

There is absolutely no simple answer to this question. It depends so much on whether the Japanese player is a really strong (Grandmaster level) or just an average player. Also depends on whether he is focussed on implementing a good strategic plan or is one of the typical Japanese payers who mistakes irrelevant pyrotechnic tactical forays for proper strategy.

A weak player will need Palembang within 3-4 months. A grandmaster level player can survive until mid 1943 without capturing Palembang. The other oilfields captured in a timely manner will more than suffice. This requires proper use of the navy which is not to sail continuously in search of tactical pyrotechnic opportunities which provide no lasting strategic benefit. It also means knowing what you are doing with Japanese industry and not being seduced by the potential new toys.[/I]


B. Are resources every a bottle neck? Are supplies a bottle neck? Or is just fuel/oil?

Supplies are always a bottleneck. More specifically getting supplies, fuel and oil to the correct places is usually the problem. This game is about logistics, not the pyrotechnic actions which so many players indulge in. Managing the demand curve, not the supply curve, is central to playing Japan well.

Just trying to understand the misery of a non boosted Japanese economy.


Alfred




Alfred-

Now that's what I'm talking about; experienced, sage advice.

I know I am relatively inexperienced, but from day one in reading AARs I thought to myself, "The Japanese just extend themselves too far for little gain and major headaches.

Best Regards,

-Terry

P.S. Of course though, it sure is fun reading AARs wherein the Japanese just go nuts; like wanting all of Australia or Canada.

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RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy - 1/19/2016 7:24:24 AM   
morejeffs

 

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Thank you all for your answers and insight!

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RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy - 1/19/2016 11:46:09 AM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

To me, as the Japanese player, capturing Palembang in prime condition is a top priority... to me, even more important than Singapore. Singapore will fall eventually (as will the PI) but getting Palembang without disruption is a real feather in the economic cap (so to speak). From there you can have your own "pyrotechnic" display!

+1

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Pax

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RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy - 1/19/2016 11:52:27 AM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: morejeffs

Assuming Scen 1 or equivalents.
A. How long can the J economy ignore not taking Palemburg? When would it crash? And before that...How long would it be before players change their production plans in worry?

There is absolutely no simple answer to this question. It depends so much on whether the Japanese player is a really strong (Grandmaster level) or just an average player. Also depends on whether he is focussed on implementing a good strategic plan or is one of the typical Japanese payers who mistakes irrelevant pyrotechnic tactical forays for proper strategy.

A weak player will need Palembang within 3-4 months. A grandmaster level player can survive until mid 1943 without capturing Palembang. The other oilfields captured in a timely manner will more than suffice. This requires proper use of the navy which is not to sail continuously in search of tactical pyrotechnic opportunities which provide no lasting strategic benefit. It also means knowing what you are doing with Japanese industry and not being seduced by the potential new toys.


B. Are resources every a bottle neck? Are supplies a bottle neck? Or is just fuel/oil?

Supplies are always a bottleneck. More specifically getting supplies, fuel and oil to the correct places is usually the problem. This game is about logistics, not the pyrotechnic actions which so many players indulge in. Managing the demand curve, not the supply curve, is central to playing Japan well.

Just trying to understand the misery of a non boosted Japanese economy.


Alfred


Alfred's summary is correct, but few IJ players will ever leave Palembang alone for long. Having Palembang in hand early gives you far more tactical and strategic freedom. And as Hal said, getting it relatively undestroyed is crucial. You do NOT want to expend 1M supply rebuilding those oilfields.

Most experienced IJ players want to secure Palembang early, a major target for Jan '42.

< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 1/19/2016 12:53:45 PM >


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RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy - 1/26/2016 1:27:16 PM   
Alpha77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: morejeffs

Assuming Scen 1 or equivalents.
A. How long can the J economy ignore not taking Palemburg? When would it crash? And before that...How long would it be before players change their production plans in worry?

There is absolutely no simple answer to this question. It depends so much on whether the Japanese player is a really strong (Grandmaster level) or just an average player. Also depends on whether he is focussed on implementing a good strategic plan or is one of the typical Japanese payers who mistakes irrelevant pyrotechnic tactical forays for proper strategy.

A weak player will need Palembang within 3-4 months. A grandmaster level player can survive until mid 1943 without capturing Palembang. The other oilfields captured in a timely manner will more than suffice. This requires proper use of the navy which is not to sail continuously in search of tactical pyrotechnic opportunities which provide no lasting strategic benefit. It also means knowing what you are doing with Japanese industry and not being seduced by the potential new toys.


B. Are resources every a bottle neck? Are supplies a bottle neck? Or is just fuel/oil?

Supplies are always a bottleneck. More specifically getting supplies, fuel and oil to the correct places is usually the problem. This game is about logistics, not the pyrotechnic actions which so many players indulge in. Managing the demand curve, not the supply curve, is central to playing Japan well.

Just trying to understand the misery of a non boosted Japanese economy.


Alfred


Alfred's summary is correct, but few IJ players will ever leave Palembang alone for long. Having Palembang in hand early gives you far more tactical and strategic freedom. And as Hal said, getting it relatively undestroyed is crucial. You do NOT want to expend 1M supply rebuilding those oilfields.

Most experienced IJ players want to secure Palembang early, a major target for Jan '42.



I have a short question, so the Allied engs will tear down those fields correct ? Which means the earlier you get there the less destruction they may have caused. But also a hard combat in that hex will destroy industry. I needed to check, but Singapore was totally destryoed when I captured it and Palembang partly. Mili & Soerabaya were also damaged quite a lot. But therefore ZERO damage at Balikpapan & the neighbour town with also an oilfield.

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RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy - 1/26/2016 1:55:21 PM   
Encircled


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Yes, the longer you give an allied player to hold on to Palembang, the more dangerous it is for you.

The more engineers he can get to it, the more damage the facilities can take when you capture it.

Oh, and I think a shock attack is a big no no as well

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RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy - 1/26/2016 5:37:09 PM   
Alpha77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Yes, the longer you give an allied player to hold on to Palembang, the more dangerous it is for you.

The more engineers he can get to it, the more damage the facilities can take when you capture it.

Oh, and I think a shock attack is a big no no as well



Yup, I learned that a little bit late, but vs. AI not so critical. However it is very costly both in time and supply to build up all the destroyed stuff. So in a new game I would certainly risk more and be faster in taking these locations. Also I play a scen which has no supply production by refs... which I also noted a bit late. But you can adapt, needs more shipping of course.

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RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy - 1/28/2016 8:18:23 PM   
FeurerKrieg


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Facility damage - No shock attack, less Allied engineers help, but there is still a large random factor involved.

Palembang - If you can isolate Palembang so the Allies can't sit there and load up oil into tankers that you then sink, you can wait for a while to take it, probably late 42 early 43 assuming you have oil/fuel from other places coming in.

Resources being a bottleneck - They are not usually, however you can take a heavy LI strategy which will make resources more important and oil/fuel less important. Since it is easier to pull resources from Korea via the magic coast road, one could consider this approach as a way to extend supply production in the late war. However, it is a nuanced debate and it also tends to rely on your strategic plans. Going to India for example provides tremendous amounts of resources, whereas Australia not so much (to my knowledge).

No matter what, Alfred is spot on about managing the demand. Every month your fleet sits in port doing nothing is actually a big economic victory for you, assuming the Allies aren't making a mess things in the Empire.

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RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy - 2/2/2016 2:26:43 PM   
Alpha77

 

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quote:


No matter what, Alfred is spot on about managing the demand. Every month your fleet sits in port doing nothing is actually a big economic victory for you, assuming the Allies aren't making a mess things in the Empire.


This is true, big CVs the older BBs and Yamato eat a lot. I had sitting them in port for a while but AlliedS offensive ended this "peace" time for now for them. Rabaul needs lots of fuel :(

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RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy - 2/2/2016 3:26:31 PM   
Mundy


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The biggest drag is the port level at Palembang and Balikpapan being capped to mediocre levels.

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RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy - 2/2/2016 3:46:58 PM   
Alpha77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mundy

The biggest drag is the port level at Palembang and Balikpapan being capped to mediocre levels.


It is annoying a lot of ship shuffling to and from port to get a size that can be docked

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RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy - 2/2/2016 5:09:56 PM   
FeurerKrieg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mundy

The biggest drag is the port level at Palembang and Balikpapan being capped to mediocre levels.


It is annoying a lot of ship shuffling to and from port to get a size that can be docked


CS convoys are great for this stuff. Do you calculations on the the best ship sizes, and set you TFs to CS and away they go.

Also, for Palembang, be sure to drop a bunch of those shipping engineer units in there. They help the tankers load up faster. Unless those units are only in DBB - I can't recall since it has been a while since I played stock.


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RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy - 2/2/2016 6:52:12 PM   
BillBrown


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As far as I know, neither Naval Support or Shore Parties help loading/unloading of oil or fuel.

< Message edited by BillBrown -- 2/2/2016 7:53:25 PM >

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RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy - 2/2/2016 6:55:18 PM   
FeurerKrieg


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Ah, I thought it did. I'll have to double check the manual. I though they helped loading rates across the board. If not, at least they help on resources so those xAK's can get out of the way of the tankers faster.

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RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy - 2/2/2016 7:29:14 PM   
Alpha77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feurer Krieg

Ah, I thought it did. I'll have to double check the manual. I though they helped loading rates across the board. If not, at least they help on resources so those xAK's can get out of the way of the tankers faster.



IMHO ofc nav support helps loading/unloading... this was my understanding since my 1st game 3 years ago... this is my 2nd one.

Yes, I have nav support in Palembang, Brunei and Balikpapan. And I also use CS convois, but I still do not manage them good enough. Need to do some re.org of my logistics. So much to do so little time

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RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy - 2/2/2016 7:41:37 PM   
FeurerKrieg


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Somewhere in my AAR I have a screenshot of the excel sheet I set up for CS convoys. I suppose everyone does them differently though.

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RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy - 2/2/2016 7:46:28 PM   
Alpha77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feurer Krieg

Somewhere in my AAR I have a screenshot of the excel sheet I set up for CS convoys. I suppose everyone does them differently though.


I dont keep them together, only the short range ones eg. from Port Arthur etc. The long distance ones I often manage per hand. And just click disband the complete fleet to port. Reason is the sys damage the ships get from long distances traveling. Then I click create fleet, and chose the non damaged ships to load. Wait till they are loaded and disband them. Meanwhile the sys damage is repaired on those disbanded to port, so create the other fleet and load it (to port limits). If this completed, I would recombine the cargo/tanker fleet and send away. Probably strange method?

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RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy - 2/2/2016 7:52:27 PM   
FeurerKrieg


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If it works, that is all that matters. That being said, I have long distance CS convoys that have been running for 10 months and the worst sys damaged I have is around 6 or 7. More often what happens, is some ship has a collision or something and then I need to swap them out anyway for significant repairs.

So, my advice is, run them until you get real sys damage (10-15) and then just swap out that ship.

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RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy - 2/2/2016 8:01:18 PM   
Alpha77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feurer Krieg

If it works, that is all that matters. That being said, I have long distance CS convoys that have been running for 10 months and the worst sys damaged I have is around 6 or 7. More often what happens, is some ship has a collision or something and then I need to swap them out anyway for significant repairs.

So, my advice is, run them until you get real sys damage (10-15) and then just swap out that ship.


Interesting conversation btw. I will try this other method. This disbanding of complete fleets may be a habit I developed in the Allies game (I also rarely keep combat fleets but chose from the port those that I want and create it from scratch). I also use those small tk now to haul stuff from Sumatra to Singapore. And Singer can easily load the big ones for the long journey. The so called "magic highway" only works from time to time for me. I have to sea transport mostly still, even now to Hongkong it ran completly fuel dry after I refueled a CV and 2 BBs there LOL. For some reason the "highway" does not work at the moment or is just very slow as also some HI in Korea etc. ran out of fuel (which happens now the 2nd time). However some stuff was moved before overland and I do not know what the reasons are it sometimes works and other times not...

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RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy - 2/2/2016 8:15:00 PM   
FeurerKrieg


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There are others who are experts at the magic coast highway, but one thing that I believe is the case is that the more you load resources/fuel/oil from Singapore, the more it will encourage the AI to move product to Singapore which the opposite of what you want to have happen. That means you are best served not loading from Singapore if you can help it. It may take many months but stuff will start to flow out of Singapore and go to Fusan assuming you are properly basing ships there and creating demand for load at that base. If not there, a lot will move to Hong Kong at least, which is still closer to home than Singapore.

Search around the forum (google 'matrix forum coast highway' or something like that) and you can probably find much better instruction than I could give you.

< Message edited by Feurer Krieg -- 2/2/2016 9:16:35 PM >


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RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy - 2/2/2016 8:44:03 PM   
Skyros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77


quote:

ORIGINAL: Feurer Krieg

Ah, I thought it did. I'll have to double check the manual. I though they helped loading rates across the board. If not, at least they help on resources so those xAK's can get out of the way of the tankers faster.



IMHO ofc nav support helps loading/unloading... this was my understanding since my 1st game 3 years ago... this is my 2nd one.

Yes, I have nav support in Palembang, Brunei and Balikpapan. And I also use CS convois, but I still do not manage them good enough. Need to do some re.org of my logistics. So much to do so little time

This chart may help.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 29
RE: Some simple questions about the Japanese economy - 2/2/2016 9:13:58 PM   
FeurerKrieg


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Right - so my assumption was that the extra "cargo load ability" applied to any and all cargo. resource, squads and devices, supply, oil and fuel. Bill indicates otherwise. I think maybe the manual spells it out, so I'll check when I get home.

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