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In side the magic box of the air system - 1/10/2016 1:14:39 PM   
Peltonx


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I have allot of data so be great if people wait until I am done- 15 posts

Thanks

You need to go here to see the hole story.


http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3999316

I been around a long time and can easily see a skunk when I see it, if the ratio is wildly wrong over time something is wrong. Killing the messenger never changes the data.
So knowing there is something wrong under the hood. I spent months tring to figure out WitE and have yet to spend more then a few hrs under the hood of WitW air system. I figured I would go under the hood and see whats wrong inside the black box.
I know based on the data there is something wrong with WA bombing and probably the same with the LW. I saw this data Liquadsky provided and saw this as my starting point.





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RE: In side the magic box of the air system - 1/10/2016 1:15:45 PM   
Peltonx


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2 HvH May 44 CG - on Bombing area 1 -




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RE: In side the magic box of the air system - 1/10/2016 1:16:21 PM   
Peltonx


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3 HvH May 44 CG - on Bombing area 2 – I did not move any planes I left them as is no load out changes ect. Having said that load out matter and allot of other things and you see towards the end.




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RE: In side the magic box of the air system - 1/10/2016 1:16:55 PM   
Peltonx


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4 I tried several game versions just to see if this was a bug or part of the basic engine. After messing with things I was able to come up with a set-up that kept planes RTF static




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RE: In side the magic box of the air system - 1/10/2016 1:17:37 PM   
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5 One other weird thing is how loses are counted. This is towards one of my 5 turn tests, the 9035 truck drivers are counted under current turn loses, but not under total loses. Flipping the coin they appear to count as VP’s. I have seen this happing and knew something was not getting counted or probably being counted in another area. So basicly with the right buttons pushed WA can average 40k per turn in axis losses. This is without me spending another 2 weeks getting everything just right, because as we will see loses could be much higher for far less loses.




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RE: In side the magic box of the air system - 1/10/2016 1:18:13 PM   
Peltonx


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6 This was the best turn I was able to get, again without really tring using .01




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RE: In side the magic box of the air system - 1/10/2016 1:18:48 PM   
Peltonx


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7 This was the best turn I was able to get, again without really tring using .12 The totals are about the same very little difference so I know whats going on is WAD be it a poor design and unhistorical. So I can now better see that something is very wrong because I can get far better ratio’s the KWG is and far more wildly odd combat ratio’s. I decide not to kill the messenger and follow the data. So as allies I can generate 200,000 loses in just 5 turns and do it unending. At this point of testing I don’t even know which buttons to push to make these loses silly.




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RE: In side the magic box of the air system - 1/10/2016 1:19:24 PM   
Peltonx


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8 Weather does matter some what I found on average it drop loses from 40,000 per turn to 30k, forts seem to matter little and the same for terrain as we will see. Here is a standard lose chart. As the data is spit out every turn I see things I love to see when I am testing, results that are not normal. So at this point seeing I am going to be playing Germany in this and future games I deside to see if I can do this with the LW.




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RE: In side the magic box of the air system - 1/10/2016 1:19:57 PM   
Peltonx


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9 The WA¡¦s had about 110,000 to 120,00 sorties per turn and Germans 12,000. So yup I am surpised the LW does so good. 10k losses from bombing and I have yet to start really digging ƒº. I tweak a few things and find that this also can be done forever as WA¡¦s ¡V so again WAD all be it unhistorical and poor.




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RE: In side the magic box of the air system - 1/10/2016 1:20:35 PM   
Peltonx


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10 I love it when I see this 5796 on my 1st try. So still not wanting to kill the messanger I decide to follow the data.





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RE: In side the magic box of the air system - 1/10/2016 1:21:45 PM   
Peltonx


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11 So I try other hexes.




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RE: In side the magic box of the air system - 1/10/2016 1:22:19 PM   
Peltonx


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12 Yup even in the mountains.




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RE: In side the magic box of the air system - 1/10/2016 1:23:11 PM   
Peltonx


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13 So at this point I really start digging and find.




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RE: In side the magic box of the air system - 1/10/2016 1:23:56 PM   
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You were bombing an HQ. They have been extremely vulnerable going back to WitE. I could probably kill a couple thousand men in a packed HQ in WitE too.

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RE: In side the magic box of the air system - 1/10/2016 1:24:52 PM   
Peltonx


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14 Another run. So terrain matters a little 18% about. The best I was able to do was 7000 using 800 planes and lost 250. But if I can cause 5k men, 400 guns and 150 AFV’s for less then 10 planes I do that any time.




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RE: In side the magic box of the air system - 1/10/2016 1:28:50 PM   
Peltonx


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15 I need at least another 2 weeks as allot more can be done with this as seen below it can
be spammed also. From my info I would say WA’s could do at least 60,000 per turn and
probably far more once troops hit the beaches and

more importantly still strategically bomb Germany as so few planes are needed to cause 40-50k loses per turn.

It can also be done at night with loses being lower but higher planes lost per turn, but this is an easy
way to farm VP’s for next to nothing in loses for Germany. There is no running from this
exploit, no hiding no counter. I spent months playing around with WitE and I have just begun
messing with WitW. The game is kind of boring but seeing allot of the systems are rumored
to be used for WitE 2.0 I figured I start looking inside the black box. For the life of
me I can’t understand the general circus that goes on when I post clear things that are
wrong on these forums. This has been going on now for 3+ years and over and over I prove
I am right and the other 20+ wrong.

I choose to follow the data while the 20+ play the same old card.

I am done with this circus as I have clearly proven my point and have gotten tired of playing this game on the forums.

You have killed the messenger so now you can follow the data.





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RE: In side the magic box of the air system - 1/10/2016 1:29:03 PM   
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That's why I don't disband the Luftwaffe bombers. If you use them in quieter areas of the front you can sometimes get away with only losing a few of them. Even in more heavily defended areas, I was trading half the Luftwaffe bombers for good vps.

Before the rockets got fixed I was also killing an awful lot of guns and afvs. But the dive bombers are pretty good too.

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RE: In side the magic box of the air system - 1/10/2016 1:54:54 PM   
Peltonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky



That's why I don't disband the Luftwaffe bombers. If you use them in quieter areas of the front you can sometimes get away with only losing a few of them. Even in more heavily defended areas, I was trading half the Luftwaffe bombers for good vps.

Before the rockets got fixed I was also killing an awful lot of guns and afvs. But the dive bombers are pretty good too.


bad guess.




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RE: In side the magic box of the air system - 1/10/2016 3:12:13 PM   
KWG


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If you read all my posts my main argument has bee that it COULD be done, not so much what it does.


Then how does one account for:




"The Kursk salient became a storm of combat, but on 13 July Hitler, confronted with the Anglo-American invasion of Sicily, called off CITADEL. The Battle of Kursk was a significant Soviet victory, and would soon lead to pressing back the Germans all along the Eastern Front. The Shturmovik had made a major contribution to the success of Red arms. Il-2s destroyed 70 tanks of the 9th Panzer Division in a mere 20 minutes, inflicted losses of 2,000 men and 270 tanks in two hours of attack on the 3rd Panzer Division, and effectively destroyed the 17th Panzer Division in four hours of strikes, smashing 240 vehicles out of their total of almost 300. "



A 2 hour attack. Or is the above a QUOTE and not DATA?



And when one considers the Luftwaffe and what causalities it caused at the 2nd battle of Kharkov.

Stalingrad what is the data for causalities caused by Luftwaffe?

Am I correct in that not all looses are KIA and there will be troops returning?

< Message edited by KWG -- 1/10/2016 4:21:12 PM >


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RE: In side the magic box of the air system - 1/10/2016 3:16:06 PM   
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Pelton, I bet close to 100% of the four-digit losses were due to bombing a hex with an HQ. This is not a problem of the air system, it's a problem with the vulnerability of HQs that dates back to WitE. Especially Allied HQs are susceptible to gigantic losses due to how packed they are.

Just to demonstrate my point, I fired off the Bulge scenario and let the couple of German tactical bombers fire away at SHAEF, which I moved into their range earlier.

Example 1:



Example 2:



Example 3:



At that point I wondered what the maximum amount of damage was that was achievable. So I opened the Westwall scenario, again moved SHAEF into range and used the German fighters in a FB role.

Result:



This was pretty much the maximum that could be destroyed. Follow-up sorties pretty much failed to destroy any elements. Also to note, 484 planes were an overkill. I could achieve the same result with at least half of that.

So unless you post the detailed breakdown of those four-digit kills I can't see those numbers as evidence that the air system is flawed.

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RE: In side the magic box of the air system - 1/10/2016 3:20:09 PM   
KWG


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quote:


Pelton, I bet close to 100% of the four-digit losses were due to bombing a hex with an HQ. This is not a problem of the air system, it's a problem with the vulnerability of HQs that dates back to WitE. Especially Allied HQs are susceptible to gigantic losses due to how packed they are.



So unless you post the detailed breakdown of those four-digit kills I can't see those numbers as evidence that the air system is flawed.


+1.

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RE: In side the magic box of the air system - 1/10/2016 4:04:11 PM   
SigUp

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KWG

Then how does one account for:




"The Kursk salient became a storm of combat, but on 13 July Hitler, confronted with the Anglo-American invasion of Sicily, called off CITADEL. The Battle of Kursk was a significant Soviet victory, and would soon lead to pressing back the Germans all along the Eastern Front. The Shturmovik had made a major contribution to the success of Red arms. Il-2s destroyed 70 tanks of the 9th Panzer Division in a mere 20 minutes, inflicted losses of 2,000 men and 270 tanks in two hours of attack on the 3rd Panzer Division, and effectively destroyed the 17th Panzer Division in four hours of strikes, smashing 240 vehicles out of their total of almost 300. "



A 2 hour attack. Or is the above a QUOTE and not DATA?

KWG, I can tell you that this account is definitely wrong. Sounds like one of those myths created by the Soviets after Kursk.

First of all, 270 destroyed tanks is wrong in any case since the TOE didn't even contain that many tanks. The 3rd Panzer Division mentioned here only possessed a single panzer regiment in 1943.

Zetterling and Frankson give the losses of the German panzer divisions in the sector of Army Group Centre in the entirety of July 1943 as:

2nd Panzer Division - 45
4th Panzer Division - 19
5th Panzer Division - 55
8th Panzer Division - 41
9th Panzer Division - 25
12th Panzer Division - 14
18th Panzer Division - 27
20th Panzer Division - 24

Army Group South divisions from 5th to 17th July 1943 suffered

3rd Panzer Division - 9
11th Panzer Division - 5
Grossdeutschland - 20
Leibstandarte - 12
Das Reich - 9
Totenkopf - 12
6th Panzer Division - 25
7th Panzer Division - 10
19th Panzer Division - 27

The Soviet misreports for the Kursk battle is pretty notorious with Prokhorovka being the most infamous one. Leibstandarte on 12th July 1943 lost only four tanks and Das Reich reported a single loss from 10th to 13th July.

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RE: In side the magic box of the air system - 1/10/2016 4:31:41 PM   
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The numbers are all over. Were they as high or as low as each side reports? And the loss of troops.

Another claim
Army Group South claimed 161 tanks and 14 assault guns lost. Up to 14 July,

And numbers aside there is the results on the battlefield from the involvement of aircraft.

And with some reported losses, from all causes, so low why was there defeat or victory?

Both Russians and Germans claim higher losses to enemy and lower losses to themselves. HMMMMM!!!

opposite for 9th Panzer
1.On 7th July 1943, in one 20 minute period it has been claimed IL-2s destroyed 70 tanks of the 9th Panzer Division.(13) It actually turns out that close to the start of the battle on 1st July 1943, 9th Panzer Division had only one tank battalion present (the II./Pz Regt 33) with only 83 tanks and assault guns of all types in the Division.(14) 9th Panzer Division doesn’t record any such loss in July (it registers an air-attack referred to as heavy strafing), and 9th Panzer Division continued in action for over three months after this so called ‘devastating attack’, with most of its initial tanks still intact.



< Message edited by KWG -- 1/10/2016 6:00:29 PM >


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RE: In side the magic box of the air system - 1/10/2016 5:27:34 PM   
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Given a working administration and reporting system the own loss reports is more or less accurate, especially if they have control over the battlefield which was the case for the Germans at Kursk. Meanwhile opposing loss reports is nearly always too high and there are a multitude of reasons for it. Tendency to look at it positively, tough to gauge destroyed vs. damaged, chaos of the battlefield etc.

The Germans grew suspicious of their own reports regarding destroyed Soviet tanks that OKH decided in December 1942 to cut 50% off the reported losses for a better estimate of the Russian losses. Turns out 50% was a bit too much with overreporting numbering about 40%.

German losses at Kursk have been checked from multiple angles by German and foreign historians and they can be seen as more or less accurate.

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RE: In side the magic box of the air system - 1/10/2016 5:41:37 PM   
KWG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SigUp

Given a working administration and reporting system the own loss reports is more or less accurate, especially if they have control over the battlefield which was the case for the Germans at Kursk. Meanwhile opposing loss reports is nearly always too high and there are a multitude of reasons for it. Tendency to look at it positively, tough to gauge destroyed vs. damaged, chaos of the battlefield etc.

The Germans grew suspicious of their own reports regarding destroyed Soviet tanks that OKH decided in December 1942 to cut 50% off the reported losses for a better estimate of the Russian losses. Turns out 50% was a bit too much with overreporting numbering about 40%.

German losses at Kursk have been checked from multiple angles by German and foreign historians and they can be seen as more or less accurate.



Game losses are low for afv and some of those return , true? as with the troop losses?

Can 36 aircraft flying 72 sorties in excellent weather cause 4,849 casualties if the variables and FATE are right? And is that FOW for the Germans in the report above?


How does everything Tactical get accounted for?

In Normandy it was almost impossible for the Germans to fly recon over Allies until the Ar 234 recon. Yet in game, with Allied fighters stationed in Normandy and with Air Supremacy missions the Germans recon many Allied hexs.
I dont see that as impossible as the game engine has enough room to account for a change in tactics being used.


< Message edited by KWG -- 1/10/2016 6:49:56 PM >


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RE: In side the magic box of the air system - 1/10/2016 7:43:25 PM   
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Ah, the claims of the V VS where they destroyed more armored vehicles than were even on hand in these divisions. Based on my reading, all aviators wildly over estimate ground losses. Normandy reports from Allied aviators during the Mortain offensive read the same way with the Germans actually losing a minimal amount of tanks to airborne weapons.

Trey

quote:

ORIGINAL: KWG

If you read all my posts my main argument has bee that it COULD be done, not so much what it does.


Then how does one account for:




"The Kursk salient became a storm of combat, but on 13 July Hitler, confronted with the Anglo-American invasion of Sicily, called off CITADEL. The Battle of Kursk was a significant Soviet victory, and would soon lead to pressing back the Germans all along the Eastern Front. The Shturmovik had made a major contribution to the success of Red arms. Il-2s destroyed 70 tanks of the 9th Panzer Division in a mere 20 minutes, inflicted losses of 2,000 men and 270 tanks in two hours of attack on the 3rd Panzer Division, and effectively destroyed the 17th Panzer Division in four hours of strikes, smashing 240 vehicles out of their total of almost 300. "



A 2 hour attack. Or is the above a QUOTE and not DATA?



And when one considers the Luftwaffe and what causalities it caused at the 2nd battle of Kharkov.

Stalingrad what is the data for causalities caused by Luftwaffe?

Am I correct in that not all looses are KIA and there will be troops returning?



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RE: In side the magic box of the air system - 1/10/2016 9:02:33 PM   
KWG


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Losses reported vary greatly for every report every front.



quote:

Totenkopf - 12



Really? only 12 for the unit that was in the thickest fighting from start to end?

As most reports have the Totenkopf losing over half all AVF and vehicles.






9th Panzer

From

"destroyed 70 tanks of the 9th Panzer Division in a mere 20 minutes"

to

"What War?"

"9th Panzer Division doesn’t record any such loss in July (it registers an air-attack referred to as heavy strafing), and 9th Panzer Division continued in action for over three months after this so called ‘devastating attack’, with most of its initial tanks still intact."

What did 9th Panzer do at Kursk? Just watch?



Then later after Kursk
Then there is the case of 8th Panzer that took the road instead of the woods as ordered by Black and caught on the move by Russian aircraft and "suffered devastating losses". "Long columns of tanks and lorries went up in flame and all hopes of a counterattack disappeared."





< Message edited by KWG -- 1/10/2016 10:22:20 PM >


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RE: In side the magic box of the air system - 1/10/2016 9:02:47 PM   
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Good article on the subject which actually deals with one of the direct quotes being used in this thread.

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/combat-aircraft-versus-armour-in-wwii/

Trey

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RE: In side the magic box of the air system - 1/10/2016 9:07:26 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: el hefe

Good article on the subject which actually deals with one of the direct quotes being used in this thread.

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/combat-aircraft-versus-armour-in-wwii/

Trey



Yes Ive quoted from it. Just the effects on armor. Almost argues for the disbanding of squadrons game wise.


Then read this and its telling of the aircraft's impact on armor. a PDF that canbe found on one of the internets .




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RE: In side the magic box of the air system - 1/10/2016 9:34:52 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KWG

Really? only 12 for the unit that was in the thickest fighting from start to end?

As most reports have the Totenkopf losing over half all AVF and vehicles.

You have to distinguish between damaged and destroyed. As the Germans were on the offensive they controlled the battlefield and they were very meticulate in recovering their AFVs. German irrecoverable tank and StuG losses at Kursk numbered fewer than 300 total. The Germans lost far more tanks during retreats than during offensives. Army Group Centre in July 1943 lost 311 AFVs, of which only 88 came during Kursk. The defensive battle at Orel was far more costly.




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