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Earthquake/Geological anomalies? - 1/10/2016 10:00:35 AM   
Dysta


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After Fat-Jim's toy test had shaken the world and spread his news of the 'glorious achievement', I wonder how US intels can immediately gather and receive the strength of underground nuclear test by just reading the earthquake?

Besides, should CMANO also have an indicator/sensor or some short when earthquake, or familiar geological anomalies is happening? Something to tell player the artificial 'Act of God' is really comes to play, and warn them the estimated strength of nuclear blast.
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RE: Earthquake/Geological anomalies? - 1/10/2016 11:03:10 AM   
Anathema


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They don't use seismological readings normally for nuclear blast detection, but starting with the Vela Hotel satellites in the 60s they can detect the tell-tale double flash of a nuclear explosion and the EMP that follows. However they don't work in underground tests because the device is obviously buried deep underground, rather than being an air or surface burst that the satellites can detect. These days nuclear detection is actually a secondary function of the NAVSTAR GPS satellites.

< Message edited by Anathema -- 1/10/2016 12:03:18 PM >

(in reply to Dysta)
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RE: Earthquake/Geological anomalies? - 1/10/2016 12:50:11 PM   
AlmightyTallest

 

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What Anathema said, plus other space based assets, but below is a link to how we calculate the yield using the seismic technique.

https://books.google.com/books?id=IiedBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA279&lpg=PA279&dq=U.S.+underground+nuclear+detection+system&source=bl&ots=LErDts2xTv&sig=Q3nQA1qJQvO13diDA6-D7-4SPZE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwifo523sJ_KAhWJej4KHcV1AQUQ6AEIWDAL#v=onepage&q=U.S.%20underground%20nuclear%20detection%20system&f=false

U.S. Detachment 452 50 miles south of the DMZ has the second largest seizmic array for this purpose btw.

< Message edited by AlmightyTallest -- 1/10/2016 1:54:34 PM >

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RE: Earthquake/Geological anomalies? - 1/10/2016 12:51:27 PM   
jimcarravall

 

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The UN's Comprehensive Nuclear Test Band Treaty (https://www.ctbto.org/the-treaty/) included a means to monitor underground nuclear blasts (
https://www.ctbto.org/verification-regime/monitoring-technologies-how-they-work/seismic-monitoring/) to verify compliance by all those who agreed to the pact.



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RE: Earthquake/Geological anomalies? - 1/10/2016 12:55:21 PM   
SeaQueen


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You get into the question, "What do you mean by 'immediately?'" The US Geological Survey monitors seismographs throughout the continental United States and studies the readings in an attempt to understand and hopefully one day predict earthquakes and volcanic eruptions. Nuclear explosions are one source of "background noise" that they need to understand and filter out. Intelligence gathering is a secondary function. They probably can look at the data and say, "Oh! That looks like a nuclear explosion!" and then pass it on to nuclear experts elsewhere in government, who then look at the details more carefully and tell you things like the yield and what not.

Different sorts of geological disturbances create different sorts of wave forms. Some waves are transverse waves, others are compression waves. From what I've read, underground nuclear tests tend to create a much stronger compression component than transverse components, due to the way in which they displace the earth around them. Tectonic shifts, on the other hand, creates much more of a transverse wave as the plates grind together.

All this sort of analysis is a sort of "after the fact" analysis, probably not done in real time, and it doesn't necessarily influence military operations so much. It's interesting to intelligence services because it influences policy and shapes the higher level decisions whose trickle down effects might be important to a military commander, so no, I don't think it ought to be included in Command.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dysta

After Fat-Jim's toy test had shaken the world and spread his news of the 'glorious achievement', I wonder how US intels can immediately gather and receive the strength of underground nuclear test by just reading the earthquake?

Besides, should CMANO also have an indicator/sensor or some short when earthquake, or familiar geological anomalies is happening? Something to tell player the artificial 'Act of God' is really comes to play, and warn them the estimated strength of nuclear blast.



< Message edited by SeaQueen -- 1/10/2016 3:20:09 PM >

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RE: Earthquake/Geological anomalies? - 1/10/2016 1:41:06 PM   
Primarchx


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Geological anomaly? Are you looking to detect caterpillar drives?

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RE: Earthquake/Geological anomalies? - 1/10/2016 1:56:59 PM   
decaf

 

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LOL

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RE: Earthquake/Geological anomalies? - 1/10/2016 3:04:38 PM   
bradinggs


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Infrasound is used. You can generally tell by the signatures it makes among many other things. Guess it could be created as a general trigger event and some imagination and some transportation.

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RE: Earthquake/Geological anomalies? - 1/10/2016 5:04:55 PM   
Zaslon

 

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A simple answer. An underground nuclear explosion release Energy the underground space.
An earthquake is also a sudden release of energy in the underground space.

The difference is how the energy is released so, as Sea Queen said there are differences in the waves and his arrangement in the seismogram. The Earthquake magnitude (remember Ritcher scale for example) is an estimation of the energy released by the earthquake (or explosion in this case), There are a lot of estimation methods (Richter is the most famous) but for important earthquakes Momentum magnitude (Mw) is widely used.



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Kids think about Iran and Amateurs think about Russia, but professionals think about China

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RE: Earthquake/Geological anomalies? - 1/10/2016 6:59:37 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dysta

After Fat-Jim's toy test had shaken the world and spread his news of the 'glorious achievement', I wonder how US intels can immediately gather and receive the strength of underground nuclear test by just reading the earthquake?

Besides, should CMANO also have an indicator/sensor or some short when earthquake, or familiar geological anomalies is happening? Something to tell player the artificial 'Act of God' is really comes to play, and warn them the estimated strength of nuclear blast.


A true seismic monitor? Not really sure.

You could use the event engine though to display a message of the event.

Mike

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RE: Earthquake/Geological anomalies? - 1/10/2016 8:44:03 PM   
SeaQueen


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What WOULD be interesting once you guys are able to devote some serious time to adding detail to the ground combat portion of the model would be adding various seismic/acoustic sensors intended to support ground forces.

Examples:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Igloo_White
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unattended_ground_sensor


quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

A true seismic monitor? Not really sure.

You could use the event engine though to display a message of the event.

Mike

(in reply to mikmykWS)
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RE: Earthquake/Geological anomalies? - 1/11/2016 3:20:37 AM   
Dysta


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Well, I hardly expect any real war events will have a sudden earthquake to destroy hostile land forces in an eye of blink, unless a huge yield of nuke is involved.

But it's a scenario, anyway, who would expect an earthquake before the invasion of Iran (BF3 reference), or more realistically, who would expect volcano eruptions that cause delays for airliners, or two deadly tsunamis happened in a decade that engulfed half a million of people? Something that alarming players 'the bigger problem' is coming in a middle of combat, especially during the Cold War, or the hostile who got MT yielding of bombs, is definitely needed.

Extremely hypocritical when earthquake become a weapon, though the nuke earthquake is really happened, as well.

I could use Lua, event triggers and text messages to 'simulate' this, by happened a 'underground nuclear blast' event and automatically delete surface units near the designated area. I could think an easier altetnative -- the facility-based underground nuke that will only generate land damages, but no EMP or aerial damage.

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RE: Earthquake/Geological anomalies? - 1/11/2016 3:41:02 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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Natural disasters aren't out just really really really low priority. Earthquake would come after weather related disasters.

mike

< Message edited by mikmyk -- 1/11/2016 4:41:57 PM >


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RE: Earthquake/Geological anomalies? - 1/11/2016 7:08:10 PM   
Primarchx


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Well, there goes my next scenario idea...



Ragnar - I've got DB entries for thr Bell 412 but not for Dwayne 'The Rock' Johnson. Can this make the 1.10 release?




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RE: Earthquake/Geological anomalies? - 1/12/2016 2:00:26 AM   
Dysta


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All for my funny ideas.

I must point out though, that launching an invasion right in a middle of natural/artificial disaster(s) is the most heinous crime of war, than open and direct nuclear strike that at least giving the defending side to react.

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Post #: 15
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