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RE: ETA?

 
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RE: ETA? - 8/6/2016 10:02:52 PM   
Lobster


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And here: http://operationalwarfare.com/

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Post #: 91
RE: ETA? - 8/7/2016 7:33:44 AM   
FF_1079


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

And here: http://operationalwarfare.com/


I actually enjoyed that thread on Ralph's forum entry. It was honest and educated - I could not help him because I lack the requisite programming knowledge, but I was able to appreciate what he was trying to do. Stuff like that is priceless for nerds like me. Post something like that once a month, and instead of begging for updates on the game, I am busy digging into the syntax of the code, trying to see if I can find an answer.

< Message edited by FF_1079 -- 8/7/2016 7:34:12 AM >


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Post #: 92
RE: ETA? - 8/18/2016 6:04:38 PM   
Meyer1

 

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Post #: 93
RE: ETA? - 8/19/2016 3:54:35 AM   
Lobster


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Used to be a fun place.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 94
RE: ETA? - 8/19/2016 4:46:55 AM   
fogger

 

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What is the use of posting any information? ALL the testers have signed a NDA so we are limited in what we can post. A fact of life so get use to it.

Every time Larry and I try and give some limited information all we get back is BITCHING.

Stop shooting the messagers.


_____________________________

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If you feel like doing some work, sit down and wait....... The feeling does go away.

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Post #: 95
RE: ETA? - 8/20/2016 4:50:51 AM   
Meyer1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fogger

What is the use of posting any information? ALL the testers have signed a NDA so we are limited in what we can post. A fact of life so get use to it.

Every time Larry and I try and give some limited information all we get back is BITCHING.

Stop shooting the messagers.



Nobody is shooting the messengers, in fact, the opposite is true. The criticism is directed towards the developers and their decision to not give any information, with the visible result of this forum being dead. That's all.

(in reply to fogger)
Post #: 96
RE: ETA? - 8/20/2016 9:53:04 AM   
Catch21

 

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Or to put it another way, there are a lot of targets (messengers included), there just aren't many people shooting anymore.

This is taking so long, some veteran TOAWers are now too old to lift a gun, or worse they've just passed on.

Since you guys as testers are presumably unpaid volunteers, have you considered, as an altruistic service to the fading, dwindling remnants of the community, the possibility of posting the source code on GitHub (or some such repository) and then organizing and project managing an open source PROGRAMMING effort.

This might be the only way TOAW moves forward in any timely, constructive way (and maybe before the testers have passed on too).

DISCLAIMER:
I have recently initiated a position in a game of Tobruk 41.

_____________________________

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(J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

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Post #: 97
RE: ETA? - 8/20/2016 1:05:04 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: General Staff
Since you guys as testers are presumably unpaid volunteers, have you considered, as an altruistic service to the fading, dwindling remnants of the community, the possibility of posting the source code on GitHub (or some such repository) and then organizing and project managing an open source PROGRAMMING effort.


hmmm, could be tough since they presumably neither have nor own the source code...

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Post #: 98
RE: ETA? - 8/20/2016 1:43:23 PM   
larryfulkerson


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm
quote:

ORIGINAL: General Staff
Since you guys as testers are presumably unpaid volunteers, have you considered, as an altruistic service to the fading, dwindling remnants of the community, the possibility of posting the source code on GitHub (or some such repository) and then organizing and project managing an open source PROGRAMMING effort.

hmmm, could be tough since they presumably neither have nor own the source code...

I asked David Heath for the TOAW source code many many years ago and he didn't think that was a good idea. No go.

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Post #: 99
RE: ETA? - 8/20/2016 3:21:28 PM   
Catch21

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mme]
hmmm, could be tough since they presumably neither have nor own the source code...

There's at least one- and unless there's been some systemic failure within Matrix more than one- copy of the source code.
quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson
I asked David Heath for the TOAW source code many many years ago and he didn't think that was a good idea. No go.

Since as you say, that was many many years ago (is David still around?), maybe it's worth revisiting. You- nor I- are getting any younger...

It's a good job this isn't a board game- it would be much harder to play test spinning around in a wheelchair with all those rule books and physical counters...

< Message edited by General Staff -- 8/20/2016 3:26:06 PM >


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Post #: 100
RE: ETA? - 8/21/2016 7:25:23 PM   
FF_1079


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fogger

What is the use of posting any information? ALL the testers have signed a NDA so we are limited in what we can post. A fact of life so get use to it.

Every time Larry and I try and give some limited information all we get back is BITCHING.

Stop shooting the messagers.



I think everyone has shown appreciation of the things that you and Larry Fulkerson have posted, I certainly have. The fact is that despite repeated requests for a monthly update of a few sentences and a possible screen shot from the sole developer, we still get the silent treatment. I even suggested, in understanding of how busy the developer is, that he turn over that idea to a beta tester or even someone from Matrix - again, dead silence. While you are allowed to be frustrated by what you consider to be a lack of patience on our part, WE are EQUALLY allowed to be frustrated by a lack of information on what is happening for a product that we would like to purchase.

The latest monthly update from Shannon Keets for World in Flames is an example of a development update at it's best. He actually made four separate posts, but the first one will be sufficient I think to make the point.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2424874&mpage=3#

He usually just has a standard format he updates for his monthly report, but adding a screen shot when it's informative is seriously appreciated I am sure.

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Post #: 101
RE: ETA? - 8/25/2016 4:52:39 PM   
Tamas

 

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Hello Guys,

I would like to raise a few points:

1) I completely understand if the community is impatient. Can't really blame you for that. We really appreciate those of you who still keep an eye on this forum, and I will be counting on you to join the beta team once we extend it (following the finalisation of the new graphics)

2) The beta testers have signed an NDA and under it they can't even disclose information without our approval, let alone release the game or the source code (which they don't have, anyways) to the community. This is just silly talk and please stop.

3) We have asked the beta testers to withold information for now not because we are cruel, but because things are still too much prone to change. The moment we have the final graphics look of the game I will start posting screenshots, and we will probably do beta AARs. Just a little more patience please.

4) The reason for very slow communication is that progress itself has been much slower than we anticipated. This does not reflect on our dedication to make TOAWIV a high quality product and a worthy new flagship of the series, quite the opposite.

5) Finally a very good news: Bob, who you know as Curtis Lemay on the forum, has started helping Ralph out with coding tasks. His feedback has already been invaluable, and now he is able to take over smaller but still quite important work (like improving UI features) while Ralph can concentrate on the bigger stuff. This already has resulted in the development picking up pace, bringing the time when we can unveil the look of the game much closer.


Thanks again for your patience and continued support of the team!

(in reply to FF_1079)
Post #: 102
RE: ETA? - 8/26/2016 6:21:55 AM   
FF_1079


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Thank you very much for that update, I appreciate the time and thoroughness in addressing what people have been wondering about. It's excellent news that additional people are coming in to help, many hands ( +2 ) make for light work. If you could be so kind as to give us an update of some kind near the end of September similar to this, I think many of us who are waiting on the game would be appreciative.

Looking forward to seeing the updated UI and graphics as they become available.

_____________________________

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Post #: 103
RE: ETA? - 8/26/2016 7:01:35 AM   
76mm


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Thanks for the update. While your plan to not show any screen shots until you have a "final graphics look" is perfectly understandable, I was hoping that you would invite feedback from the forum before finalizing the graphics--frankly, it seems to me that quite a few of the TAOW old-timers seem to think that the existing UI is absolutely fine or at worst a minor issue, while I have always viewed it as a complete turn-off and the main reason for not playing the game very much. Therefore I was thinking/hoping that you'd want some input from other players about the UI if you are trying to appeal to 21st century wargame consumers.

Note that I am not talking about graphics (ie how the units and map look), but the UI itself. I've always thought that the graphics were generally OK, although improvements are always welcome.

Also, while I'm not sure how far along your thinking has come on this topic, I would love to know more about capabilities for data export/import. Even if you don't intend to add any built-in functionality, it would be great to get more info on the XML file scheme (or whatever) so that people can get a better understanding of what might/might not be possible in this area.

Thanks again for the update.

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Post #: 104
RE: ETA? - 8/26/2016 7:03:49 AM   
fogger

 

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13 updates in July and 8 so far this month. As can be seen from Tamas's post above the light at the end of the tunnel is not the oncoming train.

_____________________________

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If you feel like doing some work, sit down and wait....... The feeling does go away.

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Post #: 105
RE: ETA? - 8/26/2016 6:08:11 PM   
balto

 

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76mm, your first paragraph about the UI needing fresh nonTOAW eyes is exactly what I have wanted to say for quite a while. Tamas, your response to #3; "things are still too much prone to change." That type of thinking makes no sense to me. How is this change a bad thing, that is part of the process.

I have tons of PC wargames. My point is that the Old-school TOAW types and others that want to be beta testers should not be the only ones providing input on the UI. If you do that in today's world of steam you will sell about 100 units.

Look, I know TOAW is allegedly great and has a strong and intelligent follower base.., but you need some fresh nonTOAW blood on the UI. And you get that by posting and asking for input. Do not do what you are doing which is holding all of your cards close. Myself and many others do not want to beta test we have other things we want to do.., but if you post weekly on the UI, you can receive some feedback from myself and others that have no interest in beta testing. I have experience with dozens (maybe 100s) of PC game from Paradox to the one-man shops.., you might want to tap into some of that. My knowledge of TOAW.., zero because the UI sucks and the manual contains about 20% of what you need to know -- you must have a great UI when the manual sucks.

If the UI input from the non-TOAW users cannot be coded (or whatever the computer jargon is), just tell us and we stop commenting on that part. But you guys are smart and I believe you can accommodate experienced gamers UI input.., so don't shut us out or this game will die when it hits steam (which it will).

I am not going to post on TOAW again, so please withhold your flames.., I will not respond. I am just trying to be helpful - NOT hurtful.

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Post #: 106
RE: ETA? - 8/26/2016 7:35:29 PM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tamas

Bob, who you know as Curtis Lemay on the forum, has started helping Ralph out with coding tasks


You da man Bob.

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"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

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Post #: 107
RE: ETA? - 8/26/2016 8:53:32 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tamas

Bob, who you know as Curtis Lemay on the forum, has started helping Ralph out with coding tasks


You da man Bob.


Well, when I look at the code I don't feel like da man. I feel like I want my mama. But I am able to harvest some of the low-hanging fruit.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

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Post #: 108
RE: ETA? - 8/26/2016 9:37:47 PM   
winkr7

 

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Hello all;

I hope you let rabbits test the game. As north american vertibrates I think they should have a say.

I will hop along now, but I have experience with 10s if not 100s of quadropeds and rabbits have a different way of seeing things.

yours
winkr7

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Post #: 109
RE: ETA? - 8/28/2016 9:35:15 PM   
Trick37_MatrixForum


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Oh, damn, so it's not out yet. I can understand trying to get around the issues. I'll be waiting with baited breath for version IV.

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Post #: 110
RE: ETA? - 9/12/2016 8:01:29 PM   
Xenophobic

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tamas

Hello Guys,

I would like to raise a few points:

1) I completely understand if the community is impatient. Can't really blame you for that. We really appreciate those of you who still keep an eye on this forum, and I will be counting on you to join the beta team once we extend it (following the finalisation of the new graphics)

2) The beta testers have signed an NDA and under it they can't even disclose information without our approval, let alone release the game or the source code (which they don't have, anyways) to the community. This is just silly talk and please stop.

3) We have asked the beta testers to withold information for now not because we are cruel, but because things are still too much prone to change. The moment we have the final graphics look of the game I will start posting screenshots, and we will probably do beta AARs. Just a little more patience please.

4) The reason for very slow communication is that progress itself has been much slower than we anticipated. This does not reflect on our dedication to make TOAWIV a high quality product and a worthy new flagship of the series, quite the opposite.

5) Finally a very good news: Bob, who you know as Curtis Lemay on the forum, has started helping Ralph out with coding tasks. His feedback has already been invaluable, and now he is able to take over smaller but still quite important work (like improving UI features) while Ralph can concentrate on the bigger stuff. This already has resulted in the development picking up pace, bringing the time when we can unveil the look of the game much closer.


Thanks again for your patience and continued support of the team!


He is saying that they have a lot of placeholder graphics in place and the menus and such aren't finished.
They're testing mechanics and such as they're slugging forward.

While this is all normal and possibly the development could be well in schedule it is the unfortunate time during development when it *looks awful* and so it is not good to release awful looking images of crude mechanical testing setup.

They only want to add the graphics one time when they've locked down design choices and feel that they're not going to change things.

This is all very typical especially with smaller productions where there aren't large departments of artists solely to churn out eye candy for the fans.

And it is even more painful for the developer not to be able to show what one is working on. I mean, the person is spending every workday on it - it would be nice to show off cool things but what can you do? Really? If it's at the stage where if you show something the last two veterans in their wheelchairs scatter about unimpressed then it is really better to just wait for a while longer.

(in reply to Tamas)
Post #: 111
RE: ETA? - 9/13/2016 11:26:50 AM   
Catch21

 

Posts: 511
Joined: 4/13/2006
From: Dublin
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tamas

Hello Guys,

I would like to raise a few points:

1) I completely understand if the community is impatient. Can't really blame you for that. We really appreciate those of you who still keep an eye on this forum, and I will be counting on you to join the beta team once we extend it (following the finalisation of the new graphics)

2) The beta testers have signed an NDA and under it they can't even disclose information without our approval, let alone release the game or the source code (which they don't have, anyways) to the community. This is just silly talk and please stop.

3) We have asked the beta testers to withold information for now not because we are cruel, but because things are still too much prone to change. The moment we have the final graphics look of the game I will start posting screenshots, and we will probably do beta AARs. Just a little more patience please.

4) The reason for very slow communication is that progress itself has been much slower than we anticipated. This does not reflect on our dedication to make TOAWIV a high quality product and a worthy new flagship of the series, quite the opposite.

5) Finally a very good news: Bob, who you know as Curtis Lemay on the forum, has started helping Ralph out with coding tasks. His feedback has already been invaluable, and now he is able to take over smaller but still quite important work (like improving UI features) while Ralph can concentrate on the bigger stuff. This already has resulted in the development picking up pace, bringing the time when we can unveil the look of the game much closer.


Thanks again for your patience and continued support of the team!
Hopefully just asking the obvious Qs here, and to your points:

1) Great, thanks. Finalization of the new graphics- do you have a deadline, end date (or to put another way, when can we expect to see something that would indicate progress)?

2) Of course the Beta Testers don't have the source code, that's silly talk. But someone does, and putting the source code on Github (or some such) might get this project the help it so obviously, desperately needs. I don't see why this type of talk needs to stop, surely this has taken so long now that other ideas, ANY ideas, are worth discussion.

3) We know you're not cruel, but some folks might wonder whether it's because you don't have anything to show, or it's so minimal it might be regarded as a dilettante effort (and don't forget we already have the ability to mod graphics and some aspects of the UI, so what's being withheld has to look as though it's taken significant time and effort).

4) Fair enough. But why is that? And it absolutely does reflect on your "dedication to make TOAWIV a high quality product and a worthy new flagship of the series", since if this were the case you'd put more time, effort and resource into it than you have done. If the projection #s aren't working for you, and every extra year of delay they surely worsen, the more reason to get extra help to finish it.

5) Curtis Lemay on this. Great. I have the utmost respect for his good efforts and stand in awe of his patience regarding the delays on this. But there's a point at which I have to start wondering why- as a longtime fellow TOAWer- he doesn't speak out at the endless delays on this project and become more of a voice advocating a solution to this endless loop. Rather than his good name being trotted out as an apologist for Matrix here and risking being perceived as part of the problem.

To put it another way, NDAs (as in non disclose) can be necessary or used as devices to muzzle good folks (as in nothing done).

I truly hope my pessimism is wrong and that TOAW IV eventually appears. Can we just turn this effort into a professional one, with deadlines, extra resources as needed and non-Neverland delivery dates? And then get an ETA on delivery date?

_____________________________

Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
(J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

(in reply to Tamas)
Post #: 112
RE: ETA? - 9/13/2016 4:18:47 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12057
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From: Houston, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: General Staff

1) Great, thanks. Finalization of the new graphics- do you have a deadline, end date (or to put another way, when can we expect to see something that would indicate progress)?


I think Tamas said that when the UI is finished, he'll start posting screenshots. We've posted dates before and then missed them huge. What's the point of more of that?

quote:

2) Of course the Beta Testers don't have the source code, that's silly talk. But someone does, and putting the source code on Github (or some such) might get this project the help it so obviously, desperately needs. I don't see why this type of talk needs to stop, surely this has taken so long now that other ideas, ANY ideas, are worth discussion.


The source code is proprietary. It's not going to be given away for free, after all this work.

quote:

3) We know you're not cruel, but some folks might wonder whether it's because you don't have anything to show, or it's so minimal it might be regarded as a dilettante effort (and don't forget we already have the ability to mod graphics and some aspects of the UI, so what's being withheld has to look as though it's taken significant time and effort).


No shots till the UI is finished. We've stated the reasons for this repeatedly.

quote:

4) Fair enough. But why is that? And it absolutely does reflect on your "dedication to make TOAWIV a high quality product and a worthy new flagship of the series", since if this were the case you'd put more time, effort and resource into it than you have done. If the projection #s aren't working for you, and every extra year of delay they surely worsen, the more reason to get extra help to finish it.


This is Ralph's project. If he doesn't want to dilute the payback for it that's his right.

quote:

5) Curtis Lemay on this. Great. I have the utmost respect for his good efforts and stand in awe of his patience regarding the delays on this. But there's a point at which I have to start wondering why- as a longtime fellow TOAWer- he doesn't speak out at the endless delays on this project and become more of a voice advocating a solution to this endless loop. Rather than his good name being trotted out as an apologist for Matrix here and risking being perceived as part of the problem.


For years I dreamed about what I would do if I ever got my hands on the source - oh the changes I would make! Reality has been a shock. It's almost like ole Norm invented his own coding language. Even the simplest things are incredibly involved to achieve. That Ralph has accomplished all that he has leaves me in awe. If Ralph were AWOL (and that has been the case a few times in the past) I would not keep that secret. But that is not the case. The code is being worked on continuously. It's just a very large task to finish up all that we committed to - larger that we anticipated. But progress is being made and the finish line will arrive. Continue to be patient.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to Catch21)
Post #: 113
RE: ETA? - 9/13/2016 11:58:00 PM   
FF_1079


Posts: 87
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From: Bluffton, South Carolina
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay



For years I dreamed about what I would do if I ever got my hands on the source - oh the changes I would make! Reality has been a shock. It's almost like ole Norm invented his own coding language. Even the simplest things are incredibly involved to achieve. That Ralph has accomplished all that he has leaves me in awe. If Ralph were AWOL (and that has been the case a few times in the past) I would not keep that secret. But that is not the case. The code is being worked on continuously. It's just a very large task to finish up all that we committed to - larger that we anticipated. But progress is being made and the finish line will arrive. Continue to be patient.


I can sympathize with this from first hand experience working on others PLC code. It's written in a much simpler way, even less complicated than the old line number BASIC, but it still has a signature, or a handwriting that is unique to the original programmer. Give two people the same exact multi step task for a PLC to perform and you will probably see two very separate and distinct code trees when they are put side by side. If not enough comments are inserted into the code ( other than cryptic notes that are only of meaning to the programmer ), it will take a good bit of time just to understand how the program works. It's understandable that this code was probably going to be in Norm's possession in his mind, so it's unlikely he went to great lengths to comment it for others editing.

_____________________________

Fondly remembers SSI's "Clash of Steel"

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Post #: 114
RE: ETA? - 9/14/2016 12:05:02 AM   
larryfulkerson


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From: Tucson, AZ
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quote:

It's understandable that this code was probably going to be in Norm's possession in his mind, so it's unlikely he went to great lengths to comment it for others editing.

My understanding is that it was written so long ago it was before 1's and 0's were invented and he had to use the lowercase L and
the capital letter 'O'. It was a heroic epic to write the original code for the first time.

_____________________________


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Post #: 115
RE: ETA? - 9/14/2016 12:53:25 AM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12057
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From: Houston, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FF_1079

I can sympathize with this from first hand experience working on others PLC code. It's written in a much simpler way, even less complicated than the old line number BASIC, but it still has a signature, or a handwriting that is unique to the original programmer. Give two people the same exact multi step task for a PLC to perform and you will probably see two very separate and distinct code trees when they are put side by side. If not enough comments are inserted into the code ( other than cryptic notes that are only of meaning to the programmer ), it will take a good bit of time just to understand how the program works. It's understandable that this code was probably going to be in Norm's possession in his mind, so it's unlikely he went to great lengths to comment it for others editing.


Good guess! The code is practically uncommented. When there is a comment it is just about that one line, not any structural info. So, one is limited to the names of files and variables to guess the purpose of files and functions, etc.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

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Post #: 116
RE: ETA? - 9/14/2016 12:55:59 AM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12057
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From: Houston, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

My understanding is that it was written so long ago it was before 1's and 0's were invented and he had to use the lowercase L and the capital letter 'O'. It was a heroic epic to write the original code for the first time.


It's all in C++ (at least all I've dealt with). But he didn't use MFC.

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RE: ETA? - 9/14/2016 3:33:20 AM   
Lobster


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That's funny because I commented one time in the TOAW forums that I was told the code was like a plate of spaghetti. All mixed up. But Ralph replied that Norm was a fine programmer and the code was well written. So which is it? I would have to believe Ralph since he's been working on it before Noah had the ark finished.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 9/14/2016 3:34:26 AM >


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RE: ETA? - 9/14/2016 4:52:16 AM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

That's funny because I commented one time in the TOAW forums that I was told the code was like a plate of spaghetti. All mixed up. But Ralph replied that Norm was a fine programmer and the code was well written. So which is it? I would have to believe Ralph since he's been working on it before Noah had the ark finished.


Oh, I would agree that it's well written (except for that comment thing). It's certainly not classical "spaghetti code", except that it's so structured that you have to expect to peal back multiple layers to get to what you want when you're looking for something. I would have preferred he had used MFC, but it might not have been around yet when he was coding it. No point in adding it now (if that would even be possible).

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RE: ETA? - 9/14/2016 3:26:26 PM   
Lobster


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First release of Microsoft Foundation Class Library was in 1992 with their C/C++ compiler. Or so I hear.

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