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RE: modeling Desert Storm or WW II? - 1/4/2016 7:43:53 PM   
KWG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: el hefe

Estimates of German casualties due to the carpet bombing during Operation Cobra were estimated at about 700. Reported US casualties from the same bombardment were right around 600. There was a reason why carpet bombing was not continued regularly after Cobra. Namely that it just wasn't efficient and strategic bombers were not a good tool for close air support. You also had tremendous push back from the strategic bomber force for being employed inthis non standard application of combat power. It took Eisenhower getting involved to force the carpet bombing operation. Obviously the casualties inflicted to friendly forces compared to enemy forces was not acceptable and the result severely impacted the relationships between the air and ground commanders.

Trey


Yes, Ive addressed each of those points in detail in previous posts in this thread and others. "just wasn't efficient" read my posts.

" Unfortunately, perfection in the employment of comparatively new tactics, such as this close-support carpet bombing, is attainable only through the process of trial and error, and these regrettable losses were part of the inevitable price of experience" -Eisenhower

And from that experience..

No stronger endorsement of the air support in Normandy can be found than Omar N. Bradley's letter to AAF Commanding General "Hap" Arnold at the end of September 1944. "I cannot say too much for the very close cooperation we have had between Air and Ground," Bradley wrote. "In my opinion, our close cooperation is better than the Germans ever had in their best days."


< Message edited by KWG -- 1/4/2016 9:30:27 PM >


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Cobra modelled - 1/4/2016 8:37:29 PM   
Red Lancer


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So as a test I setup Cobra using B&P. 8th USAAF flying on one day at 15,000ft and set to a minimum 500 aircraft per mission. As 1288 bombers were assigned two missions flew. FOW set to Off

Here is the first strike results:






Attachment (1)

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RE: Cobra modelled - 1/4/2016 8:38:16 PM   
Red Lancer


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and the second strike:






Attachment (1)

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RE: Cobra modelled - 1/4/2016 8:43:41 PM   
Red Lancer


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My quick maths says 520 damaged and destroyed. Not too far from the 600-700 quoted historically.

The issue appears not to be the losses per strike but what might of happened if instead of one strike there were many more and should that be allowed. Why should n't it?

Save attached if you want to run your own tests.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Red Lancer -- 1/4/2016 9:46:52 PM >


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RE: Cobra modelled - 1/4/2016 8:44:26 PM   
KWG


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HMMMM... as Ive posted before, Air Power in this aspect may be UNDER strength.

Most of the hexes I'am hitting are 3 divisions thick.

< Message edited by KWG -- 1/4/2016 9:46:54 PM >


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RE: Cobra modelled - 1/4/2016 8:48:38 PM   
Red Lancer


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I'm trying to compare historic and game data in a similar circumstance. A very basic scientific technique of minimising variables.

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RE: Cobra modelled - 1/4/2016 8:53:24 PM   
KWG


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Great Test.

"HMMMM... as Ive posted before, Air Power in this aspect may be UNDER strength."

Iam not complaining ... FATE is such a big factor. Many times I hit nothing.


Whats in the hex you are bombing? Recon level?

< Message edited by KWG -- 1/4/2016 9:54:30 PM >


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RE: modeling Desert Storm or WW II? - 1/4/2016 9:14:00 PM   
Peltonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: el hefe

Estimates of German casualties due to the carpet bombing during Operation Cobra were estimated at about 700. Reported US casualties from the same bombardment were right around 600. There was a reason why carpet bombing was not continued regularly after Cobra. Namely that it just wasn't efficient and strategic bombers were not a good tool for close air support. You also had tremendous push back from the strategic bomber force for being employed inthis non standard application of combat power. It took Eisenhower getting involved to force the carpet bombing operation. Obviously the casualties inflicted to friendly forces compared to enemy forces was not acceptable and the result severely impacted the relationships between the air and ground commanders.

Trey


Great point Sir. Not sure where u find your data, but as with WitE its always almost 100% dead on.

Which is the point I have been tring to make.

and Liquadsky+my self were able to "carpet bomb" France before we even invaded and do 5-10 (me), LS 10-20K per turn.

This simply was not historical as per your data.

Again to be 100% clear: I am not saying bombing as KWG is doing was not possible or should be nerfed out of game if its done for a few turns but never ending carpet bombing is the same as never ending fuel/HQBu's on eastern front.

I am saying carpet bombing for 10-20K per turn / 60 to 70% of total loses for 10 turns is simple not historical or possible during WW II.

Sure its possible in game but was it possible during Normandy from May to August week after week.




< Message edited by Pelton -- 1/4/2016 10:15:12 PM >


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RE: Cobra modelled - 1/4/2016 9:22:14 PM   
KWG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

My quick maths says 520 damaged and destroyed. Not too far from the 600-700 quoted historically.

The issue appears not to be the losses per strike but what might of happened if instead of one strike there were many more and should that be allowed. Why should n't it?

Save attached if you want to run your own tests.


Ive seen around a 1,000 or more in some accounts, not sure how they account for the ones that were obliterated as the entire Fallschirmjäger attachment.

< Message edited by KWG -- 1/4/2016 10:23:26 PM >


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RE: modeling Desert Storm or WW II? - 1/4/2016 9:24:39 PM   
Peltonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

The data is correct but your use of the data in this argument is not. You cannot compare the game data and historic data unless the circumstances match. In this game they do not as neither side is playing historically.

If you want to use historical data we will need to build a scenario that replicates the bombing conducted for Cobra. I think T1 of Breakout and Pursuit could be modified to do this.


As your know RL I always look at snowballs and exploits during CG's.

We don't need to run a test, we already have a test case/backed up by other tested (in AAR thread) so whats the point of running a test to prove my test is right, because we alrdy have the data.

Unending carpet bombing simply is no different then unending HQBU's or any other exploit.

I know it was done at different times during the war for 1 or 2 weeks at most, but not 10 weeks in a row causing 10-20K lose and 60-70% of the loses done by bombing.

As el hefe pointed out why it was hardly ever done, friend fire.

WitW simply does not model friend fire, there is NO debate about this none. A player sending 10,000's of strategic bombers to bomb a hex with 20+ times and get zero friend deaths for 10 weeks is silliness as per el hefe


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RE: modeling Desert Storm or WW II? - 1/4/2016 9:24:44 PM   
DicedT

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

quote:

ORIGINAL: el hefe

Estimates of German casualties due to the carpet bombing during Operation Cobra were estimated at about 700. Reported US casualties from the same bombardment were right around 600. There was a reason why carpet bombing was not continued regularly after Cobra. Namely that it just wasn't efficient and strategic bombers were not a good tool for close air support. You also had tremendous push back from the strategic bomber force for being employed inthis non standard application of combat power. It took Eisenhower getting involved to force the carpet bombing operation. Obviously the casualties inflicted to friendly forces compared to enemy forces was not acceptable and the result severely impacted the relationships between the air and ground commanders.

Trey


Great point Sir. Not sure where u find your data, but as with WitE its always almost 100% dead on.

Which is the point I have been tring to make.

and Liquadsky+my self were able to "carpet bomb" France before we even invaded and do 5-10 (me), LS 10-20K per turn.

This simply was not historical as per your data.

Again to be 100% clear: I am not saying bombing as KWG is doing was not possible or should be nerfed out of game if its done for a few turns but never ending carpet bombing is the same as never ending fuel/HQBu's on eastern front.

I am saying carpet bombing for 10-20K per turn / 60 to 70% of total loses for 10 turns is simple not historical or possible during WW II.

Sure its possible in game but was it possible during Normandy from May to August week after week.





Pelton, the Allies lose the vast majority of WITW games. Regular carpet bombing is one the ways that the Allies compensate. If carpet bombing is nerfed, what are you, as the most experienced German player, willing to give up on the German side in the name of game balance?

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RE: Cobra modelled - 1/4/2016 9:30:31 PM   
KWG


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quote:

I am saying carpet bombing for 10-20K per turn / 60 to 70% of total loses for 10 turns is simple not historical or possible during WW II.

Sure its possible in game but was it possible during Normandy from May to August week after week.



Why not? They started the bombing back up for Market-Garden, Bulge, Germany, North Italy

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RE: Cobra modelled - 1/4/2016 9:34:17 PM   
KWG


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Its not a "I WIN". the German player gets even more bonuses from this.


Bomb the Allies!!!! You get VPs for It.

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RE: modeling Desert Storm or WW II? - 1/4/2016 9:36:30 PM   
Peltonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

How is doing something that *costs* you VPs an exploit while leaving your troops entrained for months isn't?


Your new I am guessing?

This is called a work around.

historically bombings killed 10-15% of loses from June to September.

In game bombing is causing 60-70% of loses. The combat ratio on the ground WHICH 2by3 HAS RIGHT is 1to2 when Germans loss.

Does everyone understand this as it is supported by the data 1+1=2

OK as per the data I am losing 10-20k per turn to bombing and 5 to 10 to ground combat.

Again this is the data for 10 weeks.

So Germany is only getting VP's for the troops it kills at a 1 to 2 ratio.

WA are not losing 5-10k per turn from ground combat because the planes are killing them.

This is called a work around.

It should be costing WA 10-15k per turn in loses, but because of the never ending carpet bombing it cost 2-4k ( KWG was nice enough to post ratios)

There is no refuting the data as Red lancer agrees my data is right and so is KWG's data he was nice enough to post-thks bro

If its right KWG using his work around is killing of 10-20k germans per turn for ten turn that normally would have to be killed by ground combat.

This is simply WitE stuff, done that been there ect ect.

My data is 90% right (no is one perfect) and so is the fact that 10-15% OF LOSSES were from bombing not 60-70% so KWG has worked around the VP system by exploiting a poor designed air system.

This is simple math nothing amazing.

You can kill the messagener as per normal, but as per normal (Ok 75% of the time no one perfect hehehe) the message and data and explit/work around is what it is.

Happy New Year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

< Message edited by Pelton -- 1/4/2016 10:38:00 PM >


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RE: modeling Desert Storm or WW II? - 1/4/2016 10:01:37 PM   
KWG


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quote:


Good stuff 20k to bombing, which is still lower then KGW's 25-30K per turn not counting interdiction just bombing

He could simply not even invade and cause 20-30k loses.

but not 10 weeks in a row causing 10-20K lose



Which is it?


Seems like someone is deciding not to finish the game.





quote:

It should be costing WA 10-15k per turn in loses, but because of the never ending carpet bombing it cost 2-4k ( KWG was nice enough to post ratios)



Like some of the other accusations against me , not quite truthful.

< Message edited by KWG -- 1/4/2016 11:03:30 PM >


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RE: modeling Desert Storm or WW II? - 1/4/2016 10:05:40 PM   
KWG


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quote:


This is simple math nothing amazing.



YOU THINK???!.... MAYBE BECAUSE IAM BOMBING YOUR TROOPS AND NOT YOUR CIVILIANS.

< Message edited by KWG -- 1/4/2016 11:06:17 PM >


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RE: modeling Desert Storm or WW II? - 1/4/2016 10:27:47 PM   
KWG


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quote:


WA are not losing 5-10k per turn from ground combat because the planes are killing them.



So if I only attacked with one division at a time and was suffering 20-30k per turn would that be because your defense is too strong therefore exploiting a poor designed ground combat system?


Another ignored post and unanswered question.

< Message edited by KWG -- 1/4/2016 11:28:34 PM >


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RE: modeling Desert Storm or WW II? - 1/4/2016 10:37:50 PM   
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Pelton, what is it you don't understand? You cannot use historical losses to judge the desired result because there is no historical period where this tactic was used. You seemed to start getting this because you now seem to imply the error is that WA carpet bomb for 10 weeks. But you're now back on the losses... Which is it?

Oh, and the reason the allies didn't do it for 10 weeks? Several I would guess:
1. Never had to face a 30 mile deep German line that was absolutely packed with troops
2. It takes bombers away from SB of Germany, which cuts the damage to Germany (deemed vital by the majority of decision makers). In game terms, it loses VP... oh, just like is happening here.
3. The whole Normandy campaign was only 10 weeks, after which the Germans obligingly put their head in a noose and collapsed.

And no one thinks you could bomb for 10 weeks straight once the lines solidified in winter. Once the weather improved, there was no need...

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RE: modeling Desert Storm or WW II? - 1/4/2016 11:22:23 PM   
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Maybe Pelton and KWG should restart and use the same units,leaders,ag's,attack the same hexes,same dates as historical and see if results are historical

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RE: modeling Desert Storm or WW II? - 1/5/2016 12:01:06 AM   
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I don't know what the game answer should be but there should be logical consequences for those actions. Continued use of carpet bombing in close proximity of friendly ground forces would have probably resulted in:

1. Continued friendly ground losses. There was just no way to coordinate massive bomber strikes at high altitude with enemy camouflaged targets on the ground. Air attacks does as much damage psychologically as it does physically and repeated friendly casualties as a result of carpet bombing is going to have some major negative morale impacts on your ground troops.

2. You're going to have major friction between your air and ground commanders and they aren't going to be nearly as cooperative. As a supreme commander, this is not the kind of relationships that I would want.

3. Air Commanders are going to fight tooth and nail to prevent having to be placed in this role which means probably morale losses for strategic bomber groups being used in a way that they were not trained and the results of which consistently results in friendly casualties.

4. Carpet bombing wasn't any more effective than normal close air support with single engine aircraft so why continue?

Finally, units were not obliterated by aerial bombardments any more than they were obliterated by massive artillery bombardments. Fighting soldiers are surprising resilient in fixed fighting positions.


Trey

< Message edited by el hefe -- 1/5/2016 1:04:05 AM >


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RE: modeling Desert Storm or WW II? - 1/5/2016 12:37:28 AM   
KWG


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quote:

4. Carpet bombing wasn't any more effective than normal close air support with single engine aircraft so why continue?

Finally, units were not obliterated by aerial bombardments any more than they were obliterated by massive artillery bombardments. Fighting soldiers are surprising resilient in fixed fighting positions.



Bayerlein wrote:



The digging in of the infantry was useless and did not protect against bombing. . . . Dugouts and foxholes were smashed, the men buried, and we were unable to save them. The same happened to guns and tanks . . . . it seems to me, that a number of men who survived the pattern bombing . . . surrendered soon to the attacking infantry or escaped to the rear.
The first line has [sic] been annihilated by the bombing. . . . The three-hour bombardment on 25.7--after the smaller one a day before--had exterminating morale effect on the troops physically and morally weakened by continual hard fighting for 45 days. The long duration of the bombing, without any possibility for opposition, created depressions and a feeling of helplessness, weakness and inferiority. Therefore the morale attitude of a great number of men grew so bad that they, feeling the uselessness of fighting, surrendered, deserted to the enemy or escaped to the rear, as far as they survived the bombing. Only particularly strong nerved and brave men could endure this strain.

The shock effect was nearly as strong as the physical effect (dead and wounded). During the bombardment . . . some of the men got crazy and were unable to carry out anything. I have been personally on 24.7 and 25.7 in the center of the bombardment and could experience the tremendous effect. For me, who during this war was in every theater committed at the points of the main efforts, this was the worst I ever saw.

The well-dug-in infantry was smashed by the heavy bombs in their foxholes and dugouts or killed and buried by blast. The positions of infantry and artillery were blown up. The whole bombed area was transformed into fields covered with craters, in which no human being was alive. Tanks and guns were destroyed and overturned and could not be recovered, because all roads and passages were blocked. . . .

Very soon after the beginning of the bombardment every kind of telephone communication was eliminated. As nearly all C.P.'s [Command Posts] were situated in the bombed area, radio was almost impossible. The communication was limited to [motorcycle] messengers, but this was also rather difficult because many roads were interrupted and driving during the bombardment was very dangerous and required a lot of time.


The Fallschirmjäger attachment simply disappeared, except a few survivors.


< Message edited by KWG -- 1/5/2016 2:25:04 AM >


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RE: modeling Desert Storm or WW II? - 1/5/2016 12:46:53 AM   
KWG


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quote:

1. Continued friendly ground losses. There was just no way to coordinate massive bomber strikes at high altitude with enemy camouflaged targets on the ground. Air attacks does as much damage psychologically as it does physically and repeated friendly casualties as a result of carpet bombing is going to have some major negative morale impacts on your ground troops.


Doolittle:
" We have developed a very efficient type of anti-aircraft marking. Twelve AA guns can mark a straight line something over 2 miles long with about a 400-yard interval between bursts. This will be ideal for marking front line troops."

Others:

"I believe every man in the company will agree that if we have such an attack again they would want the bombing just where it was, right to our lines.We would rather take the ones that fall on us to get the effect on the Germans in front of us. "


"Canadian infantrymen reportedly found the the 'smoke and flame wonderful," and it was said to have "improved their morale 500 percent"
And for the Germans it was totally demoralizing. "




The grounds troops loved it and wanted more of it. Friendly fire was nothing compared to the lives it saved.




< Message edited by KWG -- 1/5/2016 2:15:01 AM >


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RE: modeling Desert Storm or WW II? - 1/5/2016 12:49:49 AM   
KWG


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quote:

2. You're going to have major friction between your air and ground commanders and they aren't going to be nearly as cooperative. As a supreme commander, this is not the kind of relationships that I would want.

3. Air Commanders are going to fight tooth and nail to prevent having to be placed in this role which means probably morale losses for strategic bomber groups being used in a way that they were not trained and the results of which consistently results in friendly casualties.



This is why Iam in command, Doolittle runs the 8th, and for those that disagree and do not want to ADAPT to combat, then I have plenty of empty airbases on desolate Scottish coasts that need commanders

Many of the bombers crews loved these missions compared to the cities. As the B17 crew that bombed the German forest for Tiger Tanks during Market-Garden

< Message edited by KWG -- 1/5/2016 2:13:36 AM >


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RE: modeling Desert Storm or WW II? - 1/5/2016 12:53:15 AM   
KWG


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quote:

4. Carpet bombing wasn't any more effective than normal close air support with single engine aircraft so why continue?




In retrospect von Rundstedt regarded the St-Lo bombing as "the most effective, as well as the most impressive, tactical use of air power in his experience."


Model is said to have mentioned it in his suicide note.



The Allies almost clicked, new tactics were forming and they almost got it right then it pulled apart when the Germans ran.


As for the effect, the Germans would have the most unbiased view.





< Message edited by KWG -- 1/5/2016 2:09:27 AM >


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RE: modeling Desert Storm or WW II? - 1/5/2016 1:21:20 AM   
KWG


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quote:

el hefe



All you have stated is true in its own context. Yet other events happen that were also true.

Adapting is a major thing in war. Other players have said that they can deal with this tactic no problem.
When someone puts their hand in a fire and complains it burns yet refuses to move it... what can be said.



WHAT ALLIED PLAYER IS USING THIS TACTIC AND GETTING A "I WIN" RESULT?

Adapting is a major thing in war.

< Message edited by KWG -- 1/5/2016 2:26:32 AM >


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RE: modeling Desert Storm or WW II? - 1/5/2016 1:38:06 AM   
DicedT

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KWG

quote:

4. Carpet bombing wasn't any more effective than normal close air support with single engine aircraft so why continue?




In retrospect von Rundstedt regarded the St-Lo bombing as "the most effective, as well as the most impressive, tactical use of air power in his experience."


Model is said to have mentioned it in his suicide note.



The Allies almost clicked, new tactics were forming and they almost got it right then it pulled apart when the Germans ran.


As for the effect, the Germans would have the most unbiased view.






KWG, you're doing a Pelton and plucking history out of context. Memoirs are notoriously self-centered and self-serving, and the Nazi generals were notorious for telling their American captors after the war what the Americans wanted to hear (and whitewashing their own war crimes in Russia). Just because General Von Panzer tells us that carpet bombing was like an A-bomb doesn't tell us that much. Who tallied up the losses? How many Germans thought to be killed turned up later? Given the German aptitude for improvisation, doesn't it seem likely they would have found some way to mitigate the effects of carpet bombing if it had been done regularly?

If it's okay for the Allies to carpet bomb every turn, then why isn't it okay to assume that Hitler never ordered the Me-262 to become a bomber, and the Germans deployed jet fighters six months earlier than they did? At some point, an historical game has to stick to history.

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RE: modeling Desert Storm or WW II? - 1/5/2016 1:53:21 AM   
KWG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DicedT


quote:

ORIGINAL: KWG

quote:

4. Carpet bombing wasn't any more effective than normal close air support with single engine aircraft so why continue?




In retrospect von Rundstedt regarded the St-Lo bombing as "the most effective, as well as the most impressive, tactical use of air power in his experience."


Model is said to have mentioned it in his suicide note.



The Allies almost clicked, new tactics were forming and they almost got it right then it pulled apart when the Germans ran.


As for the effect, the Germans would have the most unbiased view.






KWG, you're doing a Pelton and plucking history out of context. Memoirs are notoriously self-centered and self-serving, and the Nazi generals were notorious for telling their American captors after the war what the Americans wanted to hear (and whitewashing their own war crimes in Russia). Just because General Von Panzer tells us that carpet bombing was like an A-bomb doesn't tell us that much. Who tallied up the losses? How many Germans thought to be killed turned up later? Given the German aptitude for improvisation, doesn't it seem likely they would have found some way to mitigate the effects of carpet bombing if it had been done regularly?

If it's okay for the Allies to carpet bomb every turn, then why isn't it okay to assume that Hitler never ordered the Me-262 to become a bomber, and the Germans deployed jet fighters six months earlier than they did? At some point, an historical game has to stick to history.




Iam merely stating facts to be interpreted as such.
Have I said Iam completely right?
That the game should be changed to suit me?
What should I post?
Please read all my posts in the different threads on this subject before accusing me of being dogmatic.

Ive been playing the game with a interdiction bug that affects me greatly. But I was willing to keep playing.


quote:

Given the German aptitude for improvisation, doesn't it seem likely they would have found some way to mitigate the effects of carpet bombing if it had been done regularly?


YES,My point exactly!



quote:

If it's okay for the Allies to carpet bomb every turn, then why isn't it okay to assume that Hitler never ordered the Me-262 to become a bomber, and the Germans deployed jet fighters six months earlier than they did? At some point, an historical game has to stick to history.


Every turn?



In the game you can use the Me 262 as you think it should be..... fighter or bomber. And did that really slow production?


Please check out my Early Birds Mod where you get the ME262 and others a YEAR earlier. I think you will find it very fun from either side.


http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3947377



How does a TACTIC compare with PRODUTION?

Its been a year and Iam the only one to do this?
Others have done this, what is the difference?

< Message edited by KWG -- 1/5/2016 3:25:54 AM >


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Post #: 87
RE: modeling Desert Storm or WW II? - 1/5/2016 2:29:36 AM   
Great_Ajax


Posts: 4216
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I'm not discounting the heavy disruption that was caused by such a bombardment and the same descriptions of this horror are the same ones used to describe the weekly and monthly artillery bombardments in WW1. The fact that the same bombardment injured almost just as many Allied soldiers should be sufficient reason to understand why these bombardments did not continue as a reasonable tactical option. You're not going to get approval from a ground commander to conduct close carpet bombings when you know hundreds of your guys are going to get injured. Bayerlein also counts a large number of German soldiers that were counted as casualties by being "missing". US Army official histories account for these "casualties" as stunned German soldiers that quickly became POWs. The effects of the breakthrough of Cobra are often attributed to the carpet bombing (usually by aviators) when the Lehr was already exhausted and critically short of ammunition.

I honestly don't care how you decide to play the game nor am I interested in straight jacketing players. I'm just interested in having realistic consequences to those actions.

Trey

quote:

ORIGINAL: KWG

quote:

4. Carpet bombing wasn't any more effective than normal close air support with single engine aircraft so why continue?

Finally, units were not obliterated by aerial bombardments any more than they were obliterated by massive artillery bombardments. Fighting soldiers are surprising resilient in fixed fighting positions.



Bayerlein wrote:



The digging in of the infantry was useless and did not protect against bombing. . . . Dugouts and foxholes were smashed, the men buried, and we were unable to save them. The same happened to guns and tanks . . . . it seems to me, that a number of men who survived the pattern bombing . . . surrendered soon to the attacking infantry or escaped to the rear.
The first line has [sic] been annihilated by the bombing. . . . The three-hour bombardment on 25.7--after the smaller one a day before--had exterminating morale effect on the troops physically and morally weakened by continual hard fighting for 45 days. The long duration of the bombing, without any possibility for opposition, created depressions and a feeling of helplessness, weakness and inferiority. Therefore the morale attitude of a great number of men grew so bad that they, feeling the uselessness of fighting, surrendered, deserted to the enemy or escaped to the rear, as far as they survived the bombing. Only particularly strong nerved and brave men could endure this strain.

The shock effect was nearly as strong as the physical effect (dead and wounded). During the bombardment . . . some of the men got crazy and were unable to carry out anything. I have been personally on 24.7 and 25.7 in the center of the bombardment and could experience the tremendous effect. For me, who during this war was in every theater committed at the points of the main efforts, this was the worst I ever saw.

The well-dug-in infantry was smashed by the heavy bombs in their foxholes and dugouts or killed and buried by blast. The positions of infantry and artillery were blown up. The whole bombed area was transformed into fields covered with craters, in which no human being was alive. Tanks and guns were destroyed and overturned and could not be recovered, because all roads and passages were blocked. . . .

Very soon after the beginning of the bombardment every kind of telephone communication was eliminated. As nearly all C.P.'s [Command Posts] were situated in the bombed area, radio was almost impossible. The communication was limited to [motorcycle] messengers, but this was also rather difficult because many roads were interrupted and driving during the bombardment was very dangerous and required a lot of time.


The Fallschirmjäger attachment simply disappeared, except a few survivors.




< Message edited by el hefe -- 1/5/2016 3:34:30 AM >


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(in reply to KWG)
Post #: 88
RE: Cobra modelled - 1/5/2016 3:00:41 AM   
Seminole


Posts: 1549
Joined: 7/28/2011
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quote:

So as a test I setup Cobra using B&P. 8th USAAF flying on one day at 15,000ft and set to a minimum 500 aircraft per mission. As 1288 bombers were assigned two missions flew. FOW set to Off


Recon (detection value) and enemy unit density, and enemy fortification level?

Do I presume correctly that fort level does reduce air effectiveness?

(in reply to Red Lancer)
Post #: 89
RE: modeling Desert Storm or WW II? - 1/5/2016 3:11:19 AM   
KWG


Posts: 1249
Joined: 9/29/2012
Status: offline
Yes this and all the other facts and the fact is was continued when needed....


quote:


Doolittle:
" We have developed a very efficient type of anti-aircraft marking. Twelve AA guns can mark a straight line something over 2 miles long with about a 400-yard interval between bursts. This will be ideal for marking front line troops."

Others:

"I believe every man in the company will agree that if we have such an attack again they would want the bombing just where it was, right to our lines.We would rather take the ones that fall on us to get the effect on the Germans in front of us. "


"Canadian infantrymen reportedly found the the 'smoke and flame wonderful," and it was said to have "improved their morale 500 percent"
And for the Germans it was totally demoralizing. "




The grounds troops loved it and wanted more of it. Friendly fire was nothing compared to the lives it saved.



....Is nothing compared to how we see things from our perceptive.




Its been a year and Iam the only one to do this?
Others have done this, what is the difference?

Most are not even COBRA missions.
B26s, B25s, the others?


And there are quite a few "You're not going to..." that are being done.


I matter to none of the decisions... except to the game and the conditions I agreed to play.












< Message edited by KWG -- 1/5/2016 4:14:45 AM >


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