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RE: Is this a Desert Storm Exploit or WW II? - 1/2/2016 6:09:57 PM   
Seminole


Posts: 1549
Joined: 7/28/2011
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quote:

The different lose ratio is caused by an poorly designed air system... There is no strategy or tactic, its an exploit of the system that give 70% of loses caused by bombing. Historically that simply was not possible, so the design is poor. 70% of loses were caused by artillery.


You're calling his strategy and tactics an exploit, but that's semantics.
From the information you yourself provided Cobra exacted 50% losses from the air on Panzer Lehr, and KWG has made a much larger and longer commitment in his Super Cobra, so 50% strikes me as the floor in light of his concentration, and as importantly yours.

quote:

If he is doing 20x the historical amount of tactical bombing, should he still only cause 'historical' casualties with it?
If so, why?


There is no If we know he is based on his and my data, so that's not a question.


So we agree he is making a larger commitment, as are you (in terms of human targets), so please address the actual question: Should he only cause 'historical' casualties, if so, why in light of his different application of firepower? What's the logic behind your expectation?

quote:

We know the same thing can be done by simply bombing troops on the coast before u even invade.


That's conjecture, not data.
Several important differences. Do you put 3 divisions per hex on the coast? Maximum aerial recon detection value is 4, whereas troops in contact can reach 10.
Lower troop concentration and lower recon values don't support the notion that 'the same thing' can be done before invasion.

quote:

Why did Operation Cobra last less than a week historically?

Logistics


Are you suggesting the Allies didn't have enough bombs?
Source?

quote:

Accuracy was problematic.For medium bombers to have a 95 percent chance of hitting a 6,000 square foot target, they had to drop 600 bombs (medium bombers were considered 2.5 times more accurate than Cobra's main punch, the heavy bombers).


You're going apples and oranges here. We're not talking about dropping a bomb on a single building.
Do you think you're hiding a division inside of 6,000 sq. ft. - 60x100! Did you stick your panzer division inside a barn?
For comparison, a football field is 57,600 sq. ft, and you're not hiding a division inside of one of those either.
From the source you're quoting:
"90 percent fell within a thousand yards of the target."

quote:

NO as per the above post. HVY bombers were useless and even medium next to useless tring to hit a target, in other words they were usless tacticly.


You're being misleading with the notion of 'target' in this context. We're talking about carpet bombing, not trying to drop one in a pickle barrel.

quote:

What targets?


You tell me, how many divisions do you have at Normandy?
Your quote about fighter pilots with maps on their knees refers to interdiction, not carpet bombing from level bombers with on-board navigators and bombardiers. That's apples and oranges again...

(in reply to Peltonx)
Post #: 31
RE: modeling Desert Storm or WW II? - 1/2/2016 6:12:44 PM   
KWG


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Joined: 9/29/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DicedT

When looking at history and why things did -- or more importantly, did not -- happen, it's important to ask WHY.

So in the case of battlefield carpet bombing, there are two possible explanations for why the Allies didn't do it:

1) They were stupid or unimaginative.
2) There were technological and doctrinal barriers. And as a matter of fact, Allied ground commanders were not thrilled with carpet bombing after 8th Air Force, which was actually not trained or equipped for pinpoint bombing, killed a lot of American troops in Normandy. Meanwhile, the Bomber Barons screamed every time a B-17 or Lancaster was diverted from the Bomber Offensive.

Which brings up one of the problems with a game like WITW: What level of command are you simulating? The Allied commander loses VPs for not strategic bombing, which suggests that he has a boss above him setting priorities. So does that mean that he shouldn't be able to overrule Hap Arnold and "Bomber" Harris and use their heavies for carpet bombing?

On the other hand, the Germans have all sorts of advantages that the real generals didn't, like the privilege of being able to withdraw from parts of France and Italy without being sent before a firing squad. So maybe the Allies need to have an ahistorical capability of their own.

Michael


"there was no real cooperation….no one was commanding the Air Force so to speak "


"Op COBRA was a dichotomy. It forced a conceptual revolution in the application of strategic and tactical air power that would resonate through history to meet its epoch in modern fighter bombers and RPAS - Remotely Piloted Aircraft System. To achieve this, the application of strategic air power for Op COBRA, which was viewed as simplistic and primal, used these high-yield strategic assets in an unknown and untested tactical role. The inherent frustrations between the land commanders desire for this tactical ‘silver bullet’, and the airmen’s desire to strike strategic targets to cripple the bigger Nazi beast was articulated well by Brigadier Williams, Montgomery’s LO to the Allied Expeditionary Air Force (AEAF): ‘there was no real cooperation….no one was commanding the Air Force so to speak , and Tedder [Eisenhower’s Second in Command] had to try and command because Leigh-Mallory [Commander and tactically focussed head of the Allied Expeditionary Air Force]… didn’t have any control over Bert Harris [Chief of British strategic bombing assets] at all, anyway. The result was, and its significant I think, that this awful phrase grew up: ‘selling a target’ . And that’s what you had to do, you see, if you wanted the Air Force to do something.'"




Once the Germans ran, the tactical bombing by ALL Air Forces dropped off and did not start up again until Market-Garden, Bulge, Germany


If the historical German's defense had been as good as Pelton's, this is what the Allies would have done.



< Message edited by KWG -- 1/2/2016 7:31:40 PM >


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Post #: 32
RE: modeling Desert Storm or WW II? - 1/2/2016 6:32:52 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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In my opinion the WA Player should be allowed to use his heavy bombers for Tactical bombing if he wishes. But, as I have said numerous times, the problem is that in the game they are far more effective in this role then they were historically. I ran some tests. In one test I used the heavies of BC to "Unit" bomb a number of German units at 17,000 feet. I then reloaded and used a similar number of twin engine bombers and FBs of 2nd Tac to "Unit" bomb the same units at 12,000 feet (the FBs were equipped with bombs not rockets). The heavies killed almost twice as many men as the twin engine bombers and FBs did while sustaining fewer casualties and morale loss. I personally do not believe this is historical. I also support the comments of others that the heavies should add some extra MPs to the bombed hexes for the ensuing friendly ground movement.


(in reply to KWG)
Post #: 33
RE: modeling Desert Storm or WW II? - 1/2/2016 6:41:37 PM   
Seminole


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Joined: 7/28/2011
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quote:

When looking at history and why things did -- or more importantly, did not -- happen, it's important to ask WHY.

So in the case of battlefield carpet bombing, there are two possible explanations for why the Allies didn't do it:

1) They were stupid or unimaginative.
2) There were technological and doctrinal barriers. And as a matter of fact, Allied ground commanders were not thrilled with carpet bombing after 8th Air Force, which was actually not trained or equipped for pinpoint bombing, killed a lot of American troops in Normandy. Meanwhile, the Bomber Barons screamed every time a B-17 or Lancaster was diverted from the Bomber Offensive.


The main reason was that Ike didn't like the resulting friendly casualties (I'd wager General McNair's death weighed heavily), and that is something that is not being modeled here.
Another aspect is that the front became much more fluid after Cobra, so the opportunity to do the same sort of thing I think was largely lacking.

I've seen a lot of Allied players try to unit bomb and interdict me in Italy, and I guess the terrain (and recon value) is very mitigating, because it has been nowhere near as effective as Pelton has suffered in Normandy. I also don't have 3 divisions stacked in a hex, so the target density differs as well. I expect that distance to target and time of year factor as well.

I think that carpet bombing against units that are essentially static and in contact (meaning adjacent to friendlies with maxed detection levels) should be very effective, but the same type of bombing against targets that are only aerially reconned, and especially if they're fortified level 2 or higher, should not suffer nearly as much. Dummy positions, effective concealment, and bunkers to hide in go a long way to mitigating air power - even today.
I haven't done any testing to see how the game already differentiates these, my only observation is from the game is ineffective Allied efforts in Italy to replicate what KWG is doing in Normandy.

(in reply to DicedT)
Post #: 34
RE: modeling Desert Storm or WW II? - 1/2/2016 7:01:53 PM   
KWG


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I seem to be having the same results in Italy on a much smaller scale due to aircraft numbers. Its Summer and good weather and in Europe its 9,000 attack aircraft.

I can also get recon levels of 100 a lot, where 99 use to be my max, until my tactics change.

Against myself, as Germans Ive used Napoleonic tactics with good results.





WiTE 2.0 - may be that people say enough are not killed by aircraft.

Aircraft will be VERY important in such a large area. And where the enemies' planes are will be very watched.





< Message edited by KWG -- 1/2/2016 8:31:41 PM >


_____________________________

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Post #: 35
RE: modeling Desert Storm or WW II? - 1/2/2016 7:51:33 PM   
HMSWarspite

 

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From: Bristol, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

In my opinion the WA Player should be allowed to use his heavy bombers for Tactical bombing if he wishes. But, as I have said numerous times, the problem is that in the game they are far more effective in this role then they were historically. I ran some tests. In one test I used the heavies of BC to "Unit" bomb a number of German units at 17,000 feet. I then reloaded and used a similar number of twin engine bombers and FBs of 2nd Tac to "Unit" bomb the same units at 12,000 feet (the FBs were equipped with bombs not rockets). The heavies killed almost twice as many men as the twin engine bombers and FBs did while sustaining fewer casualties and morale loss. I personally do not believe this is historical. I also support the comments of others that the heavies should add some extra MPs to the bombed hexes for the ensuing friendly ground movement.




Depending on the exact planes used, you might have had 3-6 times or more the number of bombs and the weight of explosive with the heavies... So I am not sure your test (as defined) is definitive. You would have to do do further experiments. Formally you need to do a Design of Experiments, but simplistically, now add a reduction in Heavies so the number/weight of bombs is similar. Also, how many of each test did you run? It is going to be variable...


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Post #: 36
RE: modeling Desert Storm or WW II? - 1/2/2016 7:53:32 PM   
LiquidSky


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Carpet bombing is not an exact science. It cannot be done 'on demand'. In order for it proceed it must be planned in advance.

The front line has to be shifted back. The minimal safe distance for friendly units is supposed to be one mile. So before bombing, you have to disengage from the enemy and back up. These units are also out in the open...waiting for an attack to be launched and not dug in...

The area being bombed has to be marked somehow. The bombers are flying at over 20k feet. They are not dive bombers. They will not see units on the ground to bomb. The most common way of marking the are to be bombed is to follow geographical features...which means you may not even be able to bomb where the enemy really is. Other methods were tried...using coloured smoke from artillery for example, but they were not effective. (did I mention they bomb from over 20k feet?)

While being bombed, there is a huge psychological effect. The closest I can imagine is it would be like going to my in-laws for dinner. *shudder*. While there will be casualties, it will not be in proportion to the effort. Panzer Lehr which was supposedly 'wiped out' was still a viable division. The bombing covered a lot of their tanks with dirt, so they had to be dug out. That's not destroyed, that's disabled.

Only so many bombers can actually fly over the area. And after the bombs hit, there will be so much dirt, debris, smoke etc...concealing the battlefield. This will hinder other air operations.

The ground is chewed up. Since the bombs are falling indiscriminately rubble, bridges, roads...they will all be pockmarked, shellholed. It did make an advance difficult.

The B-17 was built with a purpose in mind. Nobody could wave a magic wand and turn it into a dive bomber. Or a tactical bomber. The use of fuel, crew, bombs...the time to prepare it for missions...the lack of any communication whatsoever with the army. (they only communicate general to general). Really...if they thought that it would be better to bomb random bits of ground in the hopes they can hit a German, they would have built a different airplane.

Sooooo...this leads me to the game. In game you can fly as many sorties as you want. With as many planes as you want. They drop their bombs like they are tactical aircraft that can see the target. You can fly at absurd altitudes (tree top bombing with b-17s) You can kill imaginary citizens of France. They never miss the target or hit friendly near by troops. The Strat bomber is just too effective at bombing units.

I am not against flying the mission...go crazy. The game already has a balance for that...you lose vps. Which should limit the number of times you fly the mission. What I am against is the amount of damage it causes. The kind of damage. The lack of any ground delay or effect on the allies.

The game just looks at the bombs. It says x number of bombs will do y amount of damage. And then multiply it by the number of bombs....it doesn't regulate the number of planes that should physically fly over the area. It assumes that no bombs ever hit an adjacent friendly unit. It pretends that the hex, despite any amount of bombing, would be as easy to walk through as a trip in a park.

In game you are bombing 7 days a week. When exactly do the troops have time to attack the hex? The battle would be like this: Overnight....friendly troops back away from front line to safe distance (about a mile) Carpet bombing hits early morning. After bombing finished, troops move up to front line. Launch attack at noon. Fight until night. Back up to safe distance maybe getting a couple hours sleep. Next morning...Bomb..move up...attack....retreat....maybe sleep.

If you say hey...I don't have to attack at all..well..whats to stop the Germans from hugging the front lines. A common tactic in places like Stalingrad when the enemy doesn't want to be shelled/bombed.

I think people are being naïve. Don't let Pelton's bad example justify what is a misuse of airpower. His argument is flawed in many ways, but deep down, there is a problem with how B-17's Lancasters etc...can be used exactly the same way as Mitchell's.


Earlier I had suggested that perhaps the strat bombers should leave enemy interdiction in the hex. Somebody countered with adding delay. Every day that a carpet bombing hits a hex, it should be somehow taking up time. Adding 3 delay per day could work, I liked the idea of enemy interdiction since that would cause the friendly fire associated with highly inaccurate bombing..but perhaps wouldn't add enough delay. Or maybe just have a house rule that you can only carpet bomb on one day of the week.





_____________________________

“My logisticians are a humorless lot … they know if my campaign fails, they are the first ones I will slay.” – Alexander the Great

(in reply to DicedT)
Post #: 37
RE: Is this a Desert Storm Exploit or WW II? - 1/2/2016 7:54:23 PM   
HMSWarspite

 

Posts: 1390
Joined: 4/13/2002
From: Bristol, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton


quote:

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

Pelton seems to expect historical losses regardless of the game situation and tactics.
All seems a bit strange to me... I would say Middle Earth, but he's been so good in not using the term I will refrain😊.

Pelton, he's losing Vp every turn, so is not winning, he won't be able to keep it up for ever (winter etc), and you could easily mitigate it further. We really don't know how realistic this is, as there is no history to give direct precident and I haven't seen any real analysis in the elements except Cobra, and no real analysis of that.

I really don't think this definition of exploit will catch on (use of a feature or tactic in game that deviates from history and doesn't help you win- in which case most of my games are full of exploits!)


We all paid money for a product that claimed to model historical events during WW II

If that product is modeling a Desert Storm air system and not WW II something is wrong.

You have not shown that it doesn't model plausible WW2. It certainly isn't Desert Storm. Your front line would not be there by now if it was.

_____________________________

I have a cunning plan, My Lord

(in reply to Peltonx)
Post #: 38
RE: Is this a Desert Storm Exploit or WW II? - 1/2/2016 8:01:59 PM   
KWG


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Reposts:



In an impassionioned January 1938 memo to the Secretary of War regarding the fate of the B17 program, which the civilian leaders wanted to abort, Andrews bolstered his overall argument in favor of the B17 and against mediums that would divert scarce funds needed for strategic bombers - by noting that, on the one hand, the long range B17 could be fitted with bomb-bay fuel tanks to render it even longer ranged, and on the other hand, it was so adaptable that its payload, with or without long-range tanks, could be tailored to specific missions, including medium-range, or even short-range, sorties in support of ground forces, at low level, with small bombs, whatever.


In Italy heavy bombers used regularly in tactical bombing.

Pacific- B17s used in some missions as "DIVE BOMBERS".
Some bombing missions had the B17 flying in below 3,000 feet. B17s made strafing runs.

The B17 was mainly designed to bomb ships.



Doolittle, always the innovator:
" We have developed a very efficient type of anti-aircraft marking. Twelve AA guns can mark a straight line something over 2 miles long with about a 400-yard interval between bursts. This will be ideal for marking front line troops."

In a 10 mile hex you could start the bombing miles behind the frontline.



quote:

In game you are bombing 7 days a week. When exactly do the troops have time to attack the hex? The battle would be like this: Overnight....friendly troops back away from front line to safe distance (about a mile) Carpet bombing hits early morning. After bombing finished, troops move up to front line. Launch attack at noon. Fight until night. Back up to safe distance maybe getting a couple hours sleep. Next morning...Bomb..move up...attack....retreat....maybe sleep.


Even before this came up thats one thing that Ive given a lot of time to, how the air engine is day by day and the ground is one "open" week. And it would apply to more than just this. Its averaged out for all week for all air attacks. whether B17, B25, P47. And to other conceptS in the game. The engine allows for play.


quote:


Earlier I had suggested that perhaps the strat bombers should leave enemy interdiction in the hex. Somebody countered with adding delay. Every day that a carpet bombing hits a hex, it should be somehow taking up time. Adding 3 delay per day could work, I liked the idea of enemy interdiction since that would cause the friendly fire associated with highly inaccurate bombing..but perhaps wouldn't add enough delay. Or maybe just have a house rule that you can only carpet bomb on one day of the week.


That could be said of all air attacks


quote:

The Strat bomber is just too effective at bombing units.


And Tiger Tanks have too thick of a armor


quote:

The ground is chewed up. Since the bombs are falling indiscriminately rubble, bridges, roads...they will all be pockmarked, shellholed. It did make an advance difficult.


What do 1,000 artillery guns do?

How long do you wait for the dust to settle, before you fire the smoke shells?


Look at the Bombing Lab thread. The Allies knew where the German staff car was parked.

A raid of 300 aircraft hit a hex, they separate into 10 groups of 30 to hit their target locations.



IF THE GERMANS DEFENSE WAS AS PELTONS OR STRONGER WHAT WOULD THE ALLIES HAVE DONE. WHAT DID THEY ALMOST DO IN REAL LIFE?

< Message edited by KWG -- 1/2/2016 9:46:40 PM >


_____________________________

"A word was said - a mare is standing by the fence."

(in reply to HMSWarspite)
Post #: 39
RE: Is this a Desert Storm Exploit or WW II? - 1/2/2016 8:43:11 PM   
LiquidSky


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Pacific theatre doesn't count for anything. Different war, different enemy, different air defences.

And again, I am not against using Strat bombers tactically. I am against their effect. The difference between 'other air attacks' and carpet bombing is the level of coordination. Other air attacks are either in contact with the ground through air liaison officers, or are nimble enough to find their own targets.

Carpet bombing is neither. They must fly high to avoid the flak infested German held areas. (Look up operation Tidal Wave for what happens to low flying strat bombers) They cannot see their targets. All 'innovations' for trying to guide them to a target were unreliable. Nobody on the ground could contact the strat bombers once they were in the air. And failure wanst an option. Bombing your own troops is a catastrophe to avoid.

Any tactical bombing they did in Italy was ineffective. They learned from those mistakes which is why they moved to carpet bombing. You have to saturate an area to get any effect at all, otherwise you are just throwing bombs away to make holes in the ground.

So to get any effect at all you need to be flying high, and in a large number. Without any communications once you start. Against a dug in, alerted enemy. With a huge time delay between the bombing and any attack that might take place. Without any real assurance that you are even bombing in the right place. With bombs that land somewhere within 2000 yards of where you think you are dropping them.

The game allows you to fly 16000 aircraft in 250,000 sorties over a couple of hexes. And then march an allied army into it like nothing was going on without any consequence whatsoever.

So again...not against using strat bombers tactically. All for it really. GO for it...yay team!

I am against the effect. They are not tactical bombers...just bigger! They are not a replacement for the B-25 or the A-20. Or even FB's. They are not better then them at the job of bombing the enemy.

I use my B-25s and other tactical bombers to bomb the Ruhr. If they did a better job then B-17s I would complain as well. Not that I wasn't allowed to use them in the first place.

_____________________________

“My logisticians are a humorless lot … they know if my campaign fails, they are the first ones I will slay.” – Alexander the Great

(in reply to KWG)
Post #: 40
RE: Is this a Desert Storm Exploit or WW II? - 1/2/2016 9:04:31 PM   
Seminole


Posts: 1549
Joined: 7/28/2011
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quote:

The bombers are flying at over 20k feet


quote:

The ground is chewed up. Since the bombs are falling indiscriminately rubble, bridges, roads...they will all be pockmarked, shellholed. It did make an advance difficult.


On this subject I think combat delay, not interdiction, is worth considering at some threshold.
The Allies weren't ignorant of the side effects of their actions, and adjusted.

quote:

Several days later Patton flew over the battlefield in a light plane and saw where the Cobra bombs had landed. He was surprised, not at the extent of the damage but at the mildness of it. The craters were not "anywhere as great" as those in 1918.


quote:

All in all 60,000 hundred-pound bombs were to be dropped from an altitude of 8,000 feet.* Unfortunately, the might of the RAF Heavy Bomber Command had to be excluded. Their aircraft could carry only larger armaments whose giant craters would delay American tank forces pouring through the gap - a lesson learned only too well in Operation Goodwood.


* most sources I've read cite 11,500ft as the altitude the level bombers came through at.

(in reply to KWG)
Post #: 41
RE: modeling Desert Storm or WW II? - 1/2/2016 9:14:26 PM   
HMSWarspite

 

Posts: 1390
Joined: 4/13/2002
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline
Edit: Took so long to do I crossed with the posts above.


quote:

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky



Carpet bombing is not an exact science. It cannot be done 'on demand'. In order for it proceed it must be planned in advance.

The front line has to be shifted back. The minimal safe distance for friendly units is supposed to be one mile. So before bombing, you have to disengage from the enemy and back up. These units are also out in the open...waiting for an attack to be launched and not dug in...

Only if the attack is in 'close support' of a front line attack. If the aim, as here, is mostly to cause combat strength reduction and casualties, all you need is some recon. Most of a front line hex is more than the safety distamce away, and Pelton is not exactly holding the line with a thin crust.
quote:


The area being bombed has to be marked somehow. The bombers are flying at over 20k feet.


Not necessarily in either case. Heavies (especially BC) do not need to be, or cannot be this high, and 8AF dont usually mark. I dont think we have been told the bombing alt, but I would bomb from 15-18kft.

quote:


They are not dive bombers. They will not see units on the ground to bomb. The most common way of marking the are to be bombed is to follow geographical features...which means you may not even be able to bomb where the enemy really is. Other methods were tried...using coloured smoke from artillery for example, but they were not effective. (did I mention they bomb from over 20k feet?)

While being bombed, there is a huge psychological effect. The closest I can imagine is it would be like going to my in-laws for dinner. *shudder*. While there will be casualties, it will not be in proportion to the effort. Panzer Lehr which was supposedly 'wiped out' was still a viable division. The bombing covered a lot of their tanks with dirt, so they had to be dug out. That's not destroyed, that's disabled.

Only so many bombers can actually fly over the area.


Per time. A box of B17s is only a few hundred meters long (even when narrowed to bomb), that is a couple of seconds flying time. Box spacing is a few miles, so you can put entire 8AF over a target in well less than a day. BC was compressing 500 bombers across a city in the dark without coordination in less than an hour IIRC.

quote:


And after the bombs hit, there will be so much dirt, debris, smoke etc...concealing the battlefield. This will hinder other air operations.

The ground is chewed up. Since the bombs are falling indiscriminately rubble, bridges, roads...they will all be pockmarked, shellholed. It did make an advance difficult.

The B-17 was built with a purpose in mind. Nobody could wave a magic wand and turn it into a dive bomber. Or a tactical bomber. The use of fuel, crew, bombs...the time to prepare it for missions...the lack of any communication whatsoever with the army. (they only communicate general to general). Really...if they thought that it would be better to bomb random bits of ground in the hopes they can hit a German, they would have built a different airplane.

Not relevant to this discussion, which is given the bomber fleets existed as they did, could they be used to bomb units.

quote:

Sooooo...this leads me to the game. In game you can fly as many sorties as you want. With as many planes as you want. They drop their bombs like they are tactical aircraft that can see the target. You can fly at absurd altitudes (tree top bombing with b-17s) You can kill imaginary citizens of France. They never miss the target or hit friendly near by troops. The Strat bomber is just too effective at bombing units.

Need to ask for your in game evidence please. Controlled raids, repeated significant number of times, etc.

quote:

I am not against flying the mission...go crazy. The game already has a balance for that...you lose vps. Which should limit the number of times you fly the mission. What I am against is the amount of damage it causes. The kind of damage. The lack of any ground delay or effect on the allies.

The game just looks at the bombs. It says x number of bombs will do y amount of damage. And then multiply it by the number of bombs....it doesn't regulate the number of planes that should physically fly over the area. It assumes that no bombs ever hit an adjacent friendly unit. It pretends that the hex, despite any amount of bombing, would be as easy to walk through as a trip in a park.

In game you are bombing 7 days a week. When exactly do the troops have time to attack the hex? The battle would be like this: Overnight....friendly troops back away from front line to safe distance (about a mile) Carpet bombing hits early morning. After bombing finished, troops move up to front line. Launch attack at noon. Fight until night. Back up to safe distance maybe getting a couple hours sleep. Next morning...Bomb..move up...attack....retreat....maybe sleep.

If you say hey...I don't have to attack at all..well..whats to stop the Germans from hugging the front lines. A common tactic in places like Stalingrad when the enemy doesn't want to be shelled/bombed.

I think people are being naïve. Don't let Pelton's bad example justify what is a misuse of airpower. His argument is flawed in many ways, but deep down, there is a problem with how B-17's Lancasters etc...can be used exactly the same way as Mitchell's.


Earlier I had suggested that perhaps the strat bombers should leave enemy interdiction in the hex. Somebody countered with adding delay. Every day that a carpet bombing hits a hex, it should be somehow taking up time. Adding 3 delay per day could work, I liked the idea of enemy interdiction since that would cause the friendly fire associated with highly inaccurate bombing..but perhaps wouldn't add enough delay. Or maybe just have a house rule that you can only carpet bomb on one day of the week.



This appears to be different to the case here. The questions you raise here are valid, but a different case to the dicussion in this thread which doesnt have follow up attacks in the main.

I am not saying the game is correct on carpet bombing (I have pointed out months ago that BC was not trained for mass day bombing), but the case has not been made.

Until someone shows that using heavies against units actually helps them win, I am not sure this is worth worrying about. If I were fighting Pelton, I would be planning the follow up invasion to cut off his giant Kursk style front line. Where has he nicked all the troops from?

< Message edited by HMSWarspite -- 1/2/2016 10:17:09 PM >


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RE: modeling Desert Storm or WW II? - 1/2/2016 9:24:01 PM   
KWG


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There is a whole lot of aircraft flying and tonnage being dropped.

I hope this exact "Air Engine" is moved to WiTE 2.0. It will be very interesting to see.

At the start for Barbarossa ...Only 300 Stukas(422) for the entire front. Only 700(1503) Shallow-dive/level bombers.


The number in (...) are total Luftwaffe numbers.

I can find so many different starting numbers, still all are low compared to Allies '44.

< Message edited by KWG -- 1/2/2016 10:33:44 PM >


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RE: modeling Desert Storm or WW II? - 1/2/2016 9:40:47 PM   
KWG


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quote:

If I were fighting Pelton, I would be planning the follow up invasion to cut off his giant Kursk style front line. Where has he nicked all the troops from?



That may be why all the "activity" on the forum. And the careful slowness of completing his turn.
I landed in north Brittany this turn.


< Message edited by KWG -- 1/2/2016 11:14:05 PM >


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RE: Is this a Desert Storm Exploit or WW II? - 1/2/2016 10:27:08 PM   
HMSWarspite

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky



Pacific theatre doesn't count for anything. Different war, different enemy, different air defences.

And again, I am not against using Strat bombers tactically. I am against their effect. The difference between 'other air attacks' and carpet bombing is the level of coordination. Other air attacks are either in contact with the ground through air liaison officers, or are nimble enough to find their own targets.

Carpet bombing is neither. They must fly high to avoid the flak infested German held areas. (Look up operation Tidal Wave for what happens to low flying strat bombers) They cannot see their targets. All 'innovations' for trying to guide them to a target were unreliable. Nobody on the ground could contact the strat bombers once they were in the air. And failure wanst an option. Bombing your own troops is a catastrophe to avoid.

Any tactical bombing they did in Italy was ineffective. They learned from those mistakes which is why they moved to carpet bombing. You have to saturate an area to get any effect at all, otherwise you are just throwing bombs away to make holes in the ground.

So to get any effect at all you need to be flying high, and in a large number. Without any communications once you start. Against a dug in, alerted enemy. With a huge time delay between the bombing and any attack that might take place. Without any real assurance that you are even bombing in the right place. With bombs that land somewhere within 2000 yards of where you think you are dropping them.

The game allows you to fly 16000 aircraft in 250,000 sorties over a couple of hexes. And then march an allied army into it like nothing was going on without any consequence whatsoever.

So again...not against using strat bombers tactically. All for it really. GO for it...yay team!

I am against the effect. They are not tactical bombers...just bigger! They are not a replacement for the B-25 or the A-20. Or even FB's. They are not better then them at the job of bombing the enemy.

I use my B-25s and other tactical bombers to bomb the Ruhr. If they did a better job then B-17s I would complain as well. Not that I wasn't allowed to use them in the first place.


You are assuming that the SB are performing tactical bombing. if hexes acquired a combat delay, would that ease your issue?


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Post #: 45
RE: Is this a Desert Storm Exploit or WW II? - 1/3/2016 9:13:20 AM   
HMSWarspite

 

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I have had a further thought. A Division, or any combat unit on the ground, is not uniformly distributed. A company position will be a few hundred meters across. Then there will be a gap of maybe a few hundred meters, and another one. However if you move back, there might then be 1000m or more without significant permanent presence, or at most a few AA, MPs, support troops installing field telephones, etc. Then there might be a second line. about 5km back you might get Artillery, more supplies and lots of support troops. If a significant load on bombs fall on a position, there will be heavy casualties, but equally you might get lots of craters in empty fields if the drop is only 500m away. Equally a single unit should not be able to hit every weapon type in a division...
The main difference between FB/TacB, Mediums and Heavies is their ability to detect and or respond to the presence of troops/positions. A heavy raid, as Liquidsky points out largely bombs geography - if there are troops in the wood or not, the wood gets attacked. They might miss the wood but the main variable is are there troops on the relevant geography? FB/TB can react quicker, can possibly see positions, can certainly aim at them if seen etc. Mediums are in the middle (small formations have some responsiveness, large ones have to act like heavies).
I realise this might be too large a code drop, but one extra parameter in the equation would address all this - a 'ground attack targetting factor'. This would be a function of hex recce score, number of troops in the hex, weather (presumably as normal combat), and attacking formation type and size. This reflects the above reactiveness factor, combined with conventional factors like how well the enemy positions are known/can be seen, and troop density. Each bombing unit (sqd/group etc) then rolls to see if it is bombing enemy positions. If 'yes' (check passed), then full damage but only to a restricted number of element types (not across all - ie either tanks or infantry or art, not all - but each unit is independently checked), if 'no' there should be a small random chance of a few elements being affected (strays, people 'out and about' etc). I have not thought this through, but then you could have a/c type factors like:
FB/TacB: 0.9
Mediums: 0.5
Heavies: 0.3

There could be an additional factor or check to limit the effectiveness of very large raids (a single division only has c9 infantry battalions, so 10 units should not keep a linear effectiveness relative to 5 bombing units (and 20 relative to 10 etc).

Add a 'ground cratering' delay as a function of total weight of bombs dropped, and there you have it?

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RE: Is this a Desert Storm Exploit or WW II? - 1/3/2016 2:30:24 PM   
KWG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

I have had a further thought. A Division, or any combat unit on the ground, is not uniformly distributed. A company position will be a few hundred meters across. Then there will be a gap of maybe a few hundred meters, and another one. However if you move back, there might then be 1000m or more without significant permanent presence, or at most a few AA, MPs, support troops installing field telephones, etc. Then there might be a second line. about 5km back you might get Artillery, more supplies and lots of support troops. If a significant load on bombs fall on a position, there will be heavy casualties, but equally you might get lots of craters in empty fields if the drop is only 500m away. Equally a single unit should not be able to hit every weapon type in a division...
The main difference between FB/TacB, Mediums and Heavies is their ability to detect and or respond to the presence of troops/positions. A heavy raid, as Liquidsky points out largely bombs geography - if there are troops in the wood or not, the wood gets attacked. They might miss the wood but the main variable is are there troops on the relevant geography? FB/TB can react quicker, can possibly see positions, can certainly aim at them if seen etc. Mediums are in the middle (small formations have some responsiveness, large ones have to act like heavies).
I realise this might be too large a code drop, but one extra parameter in the equation would address all this - a 'ground attack targetting factor'. This would be a function of hex recce score, number of troops in the hex, weather (presumably as normal combat), and attacking formation type and size. This reflects the above reactiveness factor, combined with conventional factors like how well the enemy positions are known/can be seen, and troop density. Each bombing unit (sqd/group etc) then rolls to see if it is bombing enemy positions. If 'yes' (check passed), then full damage but only to a restricted number of element types (not across all - ie either tanks or infantry or art, not all - but each unit is independently checked), if 'no' there should be a small random chance of a few elements being affected (strays, people 'out and about' etc). I have not thought this through, but then you could have a/c type factors like:
FB/TacB: 0.9
Mediums: 0.5
Heavies: 0.3

There could be an additional factor or check to limit the effectiveness of very large raids (a single division only has c9 infantry battalions, so 10 units should not keep a linear effectiveness relative to 5 bombing units (and 20 relative to 10 etc).

Add a 'ground cratering' delay as a function of total weight of bombs dropped, and there you have it?


Bombing Mission Lab
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3987360




Even morale boosts and hits.

"Canadian infantrymen reportedly found the the 'smoke and flame wonderful," and it was said to have "improved their morale 500 percent"
And for the Germans it was totally demoralizing.


I see the good and bad of this subject. I see what almost happen then fell apart do to petty,pompous people and selfish commands. Then picked back up for MarketGarden, Bulge, Germany

And the bigger bombings "COBRA" override the lesser tacticals that happen. As when the 8th AAF stopped the counterattack by 9th Panzer.


Cobra was only the kindling of the fire that could have blazed



I have vast amounts of info, papers, accounts on this subject.



British Chief of Air Staff Portal wrote to Tedder:

"the freguent intervention of the heavy bombers in the land battle was not essential and was only intended to save causalities."


Being British-American, I would have put a boot to his backside RATHER quickly and forcefully






< Message edited by KWG -- 1/3/2016 5:39:17 PM >


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RE: Is this a Desert Storm Exploit or WW II? - 1/3/2016 3:41:05 PM   
KWG


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SO.... What Allied player is using this tactic and getting a "I WIN" automatically result?

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RE: modeling Desert Storm or WW II? - 1/3/2016 8:25:55 PM   
HMSWarspite

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KWG

quote:

If I were fighting Pelton, I would be planning the follow up invasion to cut off his giant Kursk style front line. Where has he nicked all the troops from?



That may be why all the "activity" on the forum. And the careful slowness of completing his turn.
I landed in north Brittany this turn.



Good for you.


Edit: 'off colour' comment removed

< Message edited by HMSWarspite -- 1/3/2016 10:30:55 PM >


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Post #: 49
RE: modeling Desert Storm or WW II? - 1/3/2016 8:54:14 PM   
Red Lancer


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Please don't make things too personal. Everyone is entitled to their views.

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Post #: 50
RE: modeling Desert Storm or WW II? - 1/4/2016 2:10:06 AM   
Peltonx


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So I see no one refuting the in game data or the historical data for Normandy.

Looking to have a reasonable/logical argument, but I see no one refuting my data with a reasonable/logical argument.

If you can refute the in game of historical data do so with something other then I don't
like the data so I disagree based on nothing.

Here is in game data and historical data again. Just so stories agreeing with someone else just so story does not refute the
data or cherry picking a quote from internet land.
I have posted data supporting each point and sadly I see none from anyone else.

Agree or post some data

Turn 49
WA Loses: 256,000
GHC Loses: 268,000
Turn 58
WA Loses: 342,000
GHC Loses: 554,000
Total loses last 10 turns
WA Loses: 86,000
GHC Loses: 286,000
Ratio: 3.5 to 1 Historical lose ratio for Normandy 1:1 and most caused by artillery fire not bombing.

Also I see no one disagreeing based on data what the causes of loses were during Normandy other then me.
Sure allot of just because I don't like the in game and historical data I disagree.


panzer lehr
Bayerlein left a remarkable account of the effects of the COBRA bombing and ground assault on his already war-weary command.
In response to postwar interrogation he wrote:

We had the main losses by pattern bombing, less by artillery, still less by tanks and smaller arms.
The actual losses of dead and wounded were approximately:

by bombing 50%
by artillery 30%
by other weapons 20%
So Operation Cobra lasted a week and loses were only 50% by bombing.
and yet WitW gives 60-70% for 10 weeks.

Recent analysis of ground combat deaths in various wars has shown that, for WW2,
military wounds and deaths were caused primarily by four sources:


Small Arms fire: 5-10% of wounds, <1% of deaths
Mortars, Grenades, Mines, and other lightweight explosive devices: 40-50% of wounds, 20-40% deaths
Artillery (primarily blast and direct fragmentation): 30-50% of wounds, 50-60% of deaths
Bombs: 5-10% of wounds, < 5% of deaths

The amounts varied heavily by the particular battle, as locale terrain plays a huge roll in determining both what
weapons are prevalent, and the effectiveness of each.
For instance, artillery had a very low impact on deaths in the various Pacific island campaigns, where the
vast majority of casualties were from mortars, grenades, and mines, followed by small arms.

and yes as per Red Lances request lets not get into the personal silly

Happy New Year everyone




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Pelton -- 1/4/2016 3:10:27 AM >


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RE: modeling Desert Storm or WW II? - 1/4/2016 5:40:51 AM   
Red Lancer


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The data is correct but your use of the data in this argument is not. You cannot compare the game data and historic data unless the circumstances match. In this game they do not as neither side is playing historically.

If you want to use historical data we will need to build a scenario that replicates the bombing conducted for Cobra. I think T1 of Breakout and Pursuit could be modified to do this.

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Post #: 52
RE: modeling Desert Storm or WW II? - 1/4/2016 1:48:34 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

Looking to have a reasonable/logical argument, but I see no one refuting my data with a reasonable/logical argument.


What is your reasonable/logical argument? Is it that if Cobra had been bigger and longer it would have produced exactly the same casualties?

You have pointed out that Panzer Lehr suffered 50% of its casualties from the sky in Cobra.
You have pointed out that KWG is conducting a MUCH larger Cobra, for much longer.

Given that situation, is less than 50% casualties from the air a reasonable/logical expectation? If so, why?

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RE: modeling Desert Storm or WW II? - 1/4/2016 3:14:28 PM   
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How is doing something that *costs* you VPs an exploit while leaving your troops entrained for months isn't?

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RE: modeling Desert Storm or WW II? - 1/4/2016 3:27:37 PM   
Kofiman

 

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It is an exploit because it means Pelton has to think.

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RE: modeling Desert Storm or WW II? - 1/4/2016 3:28:40 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

How is doing something that *costs* you VPs an exploit while leaving your troops entrained for months isn't?


Leaving troops on trains costs VP too, because they don't count toward garrisons.

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RE: modeling Desert Storm or WW II? - 1/4/2016 4:48:13 PM   
HMSWarspite

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

quote:

How is doing something that *costs* you VPs an exploit while leaving your troops entrained for months isn't?


Leaving troops on trains costs VP too, because they don't count toward garrisons.


If troops left on trains used up train/rail capacity and fatigued troops, as well as being unbelievably vulnerable to air and ground attack, I would allow it!

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RE: modeling Desert Storm or WW II? - 1/4/2016 5:19:16 PM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

quote:

How is doing something that *costs* you VPs an exploit while leaving your troops entrained for months isn't?


Leaving troops on trains costs VP too, because they don't count toward garrisons.


Yeah, but I don't see how one can claim the former is an exploit while exploiting the latter.




< Message edited by Aurelian -- 1/4/2016 6:26:02 PM >


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RE: modeling Desert Storm or WW II? - 1/4/2016 5:43:16 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

If troops left on trains used up train/rail capacity and fatigued troops, as well as being unbelievably vulnerable to air and ground attack, I would allow it!


I think they do use up rail capacity. I surmise this based on an observation when I was shuffling some Armies around as the Germans and I had a large concentration of troops on trains as I was moving assets. The next turn some of them were no longer on trains when I know I didn't disembark them (lacked the SMP in any event). A dev can confirm, but I assumed that in the case of each unit the necessary rail capacity was called upon, and due to the concentration (I was moving my mobile reserve army out of Italy, and sending other assets down there and lots of guys ran out of SMP around the Alps) there were not enough railyards in range and so at the start of the next turn not everyone could be put back on trains. Maybe it was just a bug, but I only play server games and haven't been in a situation to duplicate it or try to suss it out.
I don't know how the air game treats troops on trains, but agree they should be particularly vulnerable. There is already a consideration for ground combat (14.2: Combat units that are attacked while entrained will suffer a significant degradation in CV in the subsequent battle).

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RE: modeling Desert Storm or WW II? - 1/4/2016 7:03:07 PM   
Great_Ajax


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Estimates of German casualties due to the carpet bombing during Operation Cobra were estimated at about 700. Reported US casualties from the same bombardment were right around 600. There was a reason why carpet bombing was not continued regularly after Cobra. Namely that it just wasn't efficient and strategic bombers were not a good tool for close air support. You also had tremendous push back from the strategic bomber force for being employed inthis non standard application of combat power. It took Eisenhower getting involved to force the carpet bombing operation. Obviously the casualties inflicted to friendly forces compared to enemy forces was not acceptable and the result severely impacted the relationships between the air and ground commanders.

Trey

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