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Carrier damage - 12/21/2015 7:36:04 PM   
Marshall


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Is there a magic formula for assessing the damage to allied carriers?

For now I calculate with the basic principle of 5 (type 91 used by the Kate) torpedo strikes to sink a USN carrier.
(submarines use heavier charged torpedoes, about 1.5 ratio with explosive warhead)
I know there are differences in ship types (the Wasp is weak and will sink with 2 to 3 torpedo strikes), but the majority have a 100/25/100 armor rating.

I am especially interested in the damage indicator for:

-Fuel storage explosion
-Ammo Storage explosion

and messages during the attack:
-Internal explosion
-Flooding, counter flooding.
-Flight deck penetration

Do these occurrences add to the damage, and how to rate this.

In my current model I calculate the ammo and fuel explosion, as 1 torpedo hit.

As player for japan, I cannot rely on my intel, as the service drinks to much sake and reports a carrier sunk even with a single torpedo hit from a submarine.



< Message edited by Marshall -- 12/21/2015 8:36:31 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Carrier damage - 12/21/2015 7:59:29 PM   
Lokasenna


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Flight deck penetration doesn't mean much. It means you penetrated the deck armor - big deal, there isn't really any on the USN carriers. On the Brit carriers, you will see "Flight deck hit" sometimes.

"Listing, counter flooding" means the ship is incurring some minor Floatation damage to correct some listing. This is good, if you are trying to sink the ship, or bad if it is your ship being hit.

Internal explosion just tells me that there might be more Sys damage than the hit would otherwise have caused, or maybe some fires (which can and often does lead to Sys damage).

Fuel and Ammo Storage Explosions are kind of the same thing. They might deal some initial damage, but the real danger is they start fires which can burn up the ship.



I actually find that about 3 torpedo hits puts all CVs in trouble. It depends on the damage rolls. If you just see "belt armor penetration" and no other messages on the hit, chances are it did minimal damage. If you see "Severe Damage" only, then yes you probably need 5 hits. If you see "Listing, counter flooding" more than once... then probably only 3 hits will do it.


Edit - When you want to determine if a single ship has been sunk, listen for the ship sinking sound. Sometimes you can pick out multiple instances of it occurring back-to-back as well.

Also check for planes destroyed on the ground over the coming days.

< Message edited by Lokasenna -- 12/21/2015 9:00:21 PM >

(in reply to Marshall)
Post #: 2
RE: Carrier damage - 12/21/2015 8:10:01 PM   
Marshall


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I keep track of my hits in a PBEM game
for example:
20-Sep-42 CV Hornet Torpedo hits 1
11-Oct-42 CV Hornet Bomb hits 1 on fire
18-Oct-42 CV Hornet Torpedo hits 2 (both hits recorded listing, counter flooding)

The final 2 torpedo hits both stated listing, counter flooding

yet no sinking noises are received, no operational losses seen.
The location however is at the Gilberts islands, with the allied forces having a fighter base close by, so any diverted planes would be able to land there.


(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 3
RE: Carrier damage - 12/21/2015 9:19:55 PM   
Admiral DadMan


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From: A Lion uses all its might to catch a Rabbit
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Hornet is one tough hombre'

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(in reply to Marshall)
Post #: 4
RE: Carrier damage - 12/21/2015 9:19:56 PM   
rustysi


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From: LI, NY
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Too many die rolls, too many variables to come up with hard and fast 'rules' as to what will sink what. Based on what you show above I'd say Hornet is afloat.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Marshall)
Post #: 5
RE: Carrier damage - 12/21/2015 9:27:54 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall

I keep track of my hits in a PBEM game
for example:
20-Sep-42 CV Hornet Torpedo hits 1
11-Oct-42 CV Hornet Bomb hits 1 on fire
18-Oct-42 CV Hornet Torpedo hits 2 (both hits recorded listing, counter flooding)

The final 2 torpedo hits both stated listing, counter flooding

yet no sinking noises are received, no operational losses seen.
The location however is at the Gilberts islands, with the allied forces having a fighter base close by, so any diverted planes would be able to land there.




Probably not sunk as hits over time allow the crew to make temporary sys and flotation damage repairs. So they would not be as effective as hits in the same attack. I would say the Hornet is still afloat after the hits you have recorded over the course of a month. Your rule of thumb is not bad but there are so many variables that it is hard to predict. I have had two torpedoes hit Lexington and came off with less than 10 flotation damage. But usually two hits would put her in the yard for 4-6 months. The fact that the ship was still in operation suggests that the first torpedo hit was minor. You would expect any sane commander to have her well out of the theater in a month's time if she had any real damage. You never really know.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Marshall)
Post #: 6
RE: Carrier damage - 12/21/2015 9:52:39 PM   
Admiral DadMan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton
I have had two torpedoes hit Lexington and came off with less than 10 flotation damage. But usually two hits would put her in the yard for 4-6 months.


Maybe she was angling her armor, you know, like in World of Warships...

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton
You would expect any sane commander to have her well out of the theater in a month's time if she had any real damage. You never really know.


Sanity is over-rated...

_____________________________

Scenario 127: "Scraps of Paper"
(\../)
(O.o)
(> <)

CVB Langley:

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 7
RE: Carrier damage - 12/21/2015 10:43:08 PM   
Marshall


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My honorable opponent can surely tell us the details of the damage
But she is a tough cookie, I give her that.

I send the new turn Admiral, more damage assessment needed!

(in reply to Admiral DadMan)
Post #: 8
RE: Carrier damage - 12/21/2015 11:11:28 PM   
Lokasenna


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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall

I keep track of my hits in a PBEM game
for example:
20-Sep-42 CV Hornet Torpedo hits 1
11-Oct-42 CV Hornet Bomb hits 1 on fire
18-Oct-42 CV Hornet Torpedo hits 2 (both hits recorded listing, counter flooding)

The final 2 torpedo hits both stated listing, counter flooding

yet no sinking noises are received, no operational losses seen.
The location however is at the Gilberts islands, with the allied forces having a fighter base close by, so any diverted planes would be able to land there.




Probably not sunk as hits over time allow the crew to make temporary sys and flotation damage repairs. So they would not be as effective as hits in the same attack. I would say the Hornet is still afloat after the hits you have recorded over the course of a month. Your rule of thumb is not bad but there are so many variables that it is hard to predict. I have had two torpedoes hit Lexington and came off with less than 10 flotation damage. But usually two hits would put her in the yard for 4-6 months. The fact that the ship was still in operation suggests that the first torpedo hit was minor. You would expect any sane commander to have her well out of the theater in a month's time if she had any real damage. You never really know.


I've had those minor torpedo hits do less than 10 Sys/Float damage on at least a half dozen occasions. It seems to happen most on the Lexingtons. Maybe it has to do with durability? We know that durability affects damage taken overall, anyway. I treat those as if the anti-torpedo bulge did its job. A few of the hits were repairable at major ports (size 7+) as the damage was less than 5 major.

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 9
RE: Carrier damage - 12/21/2015 11:34:21 PM   
Admiral DadMan


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From: A Lion uses all its might to catch a Rabbit
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I. Just. Want. To. Cry.

_____________________________

Scenario 127: "Scraps of Paper"
(\../)
(O.o)
(> <)

CVB Langley:

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 10
RE: Carrier damage - 12/22/2015 12:24:02 AM   
rustysi


Posts: 6379
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Admiral DadMan

I. Just. Want. To. Cry.


There's no crying in AE!!!

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Admiral DadMan)
Post #: 11
RE: Carrier damage - 12/22/2015 2:27:17 AM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall

Is there a magic formula for assessing the damage to allied carriers?

For now I calculate with the basic principle of 5 (type 91 used by the Kate) torpedo strikes to sink a USN carrier.
(submarines use heavier charged torpedoes, about 1.5 ratio with explosive warhead)
I know there are differences in ship types (the Wasp is weak and will sink with 2 to 3 torpedo strikes), but the majority have a 100/25/100 armor rating.

I am especially interested in the damage indicator for:

-Fuel storage explosion
-Ammo Storage explosion

and messages during the attack:
-Internal explosion
-Flooding, counter flooding.
-Flight deck penetration

Do these occurrences add to the damage, and how to rate this.

In my current model I calculate the ammo and fuel explosion, as 1 torpedo hit.

As player for japan, I cannot rely on my intel, as the service drinks to much sake and reports a carrier sunk even with a single torpedo hit from a submarine.




There is no magical formula for assessing the damage. Damage caused is a function of


  • penetration - where armour and penetration rates are taken into account whether it is a penetrating hit or just a hit
  • effect - where if a hit has occurred the amount of damage is a random up to the warhead eff rating


plus subsequent, immediate damage control efforts.

In practical terms, all those five messages indicate is that the "effect" outcome will be higher than otherwise. They do not indicate that you have achieved an equivalent second hit from the same weapon. They also provide some indication of what sort of damage has been inflicted. The "flooding, counter flooding" indicates some flotation damage has been inflicted. in itself it doesn't indicate how severe is the flotation damage.

It is impossible to accurately determine how long a damaged enemy ship will be out of action. Impossible because you can't determine how sever the damage is, nor really where it is located (although you do get some hints), nor how good damage control is, nor which shipyard will be used to repair the damage and what other ships are being fixed at the base.

The only certain way of knowing whether a flattop has been sunk is to listening for the glug glug sound, but that means nothing if there is more than one candidate for sinking, or the loss of enemy aircraft.

Otherwise the guidance provided by Lokasenna is the best ball park estimates you can make.

Alfred

(in reply to Marshall)
Post #: 12
RE: Carrier damage - 12/22/2015 10:30:08 AM   
Crackaces


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Since you have seen this platform multiple times ... Don't forget the animations during combat replay gives a good estimation of sys damage and fires ..the last frame before moving on to the next battle is a pretty good picture of the damage .. the thicker the smoke the more sys damage .. fire flashing from the smoke gives a picture of fires aboard ..

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 13
RE: Carrier damage - 12/22/2015 12:35:36 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi


quote:

ORIGINAL: Admiral DadMan

I. Just. Want. To. Cry.


There's no crying in AE!!!

I hope wailing and gnashing of teeth is still permitted!

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 14
RE: Carrier damage - 12/22/2015 3:18:20 PM   
Lokasenna


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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi


quote:

ORIGINAL: Admiral DadMan

I. Just. Want. To. Cry.


There's no crying in AE!!!

I hope wailing and gnashing of teeth is still permitted!


I play in complete silence all the time.

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 15
RE: Carrier damage - 12/22/2015 3:51:54 PM   
dave sindel

 

Posts: 488
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From: Millersburg, OH
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi


quote:

ORIGINAL: Admiral DadMan

I. Just. Want. To. Cry.


There's no crying in AE!!!

I hope wailing and gnashing of teeth is still permitted!


I play in complete silence all the time.


Stunned silence for me most of the time...

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 16
RE: Carrier damage - 12/22/2015 5:03:08 PM   
Lecivius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Otherwise the guidance provided by Lokasenna is the best ball park estimates you can make.

Alfred



High praise, indeed

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 17
RE: Carrier damage - 12/22/2015 10:54:33 PM   
rustysi


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From: LI, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi


quote:

ORIGINAL: Admiral DadMan

I. Just. Want. To. Cry.


There's no crying in AE!!!

I hope wailing and gnashing of teeth is still permitted!


Always.


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 18
RE: Carrier damage - 12/22/2015 10:55:21 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 6379
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi


quote:

ORIGINAL: Admiral DadMan

I. Just. Want. To. Cry.


There's no crying in AE!!!

I hope wailing and gnashing of teeth is still permitted!


I play in complete silence all the time.


Its not good to hold it in.


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 19
RE: Carrier damage - 12/22/2015 10:56:57 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 6379
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dave sindel


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi


quote:

ORIGINAL: Admiral DadMan

I. Just. Want. To. Cry.


There's no crying in AE!!!

I hope wailing and gnashing of teeth is still permitted!


I play in complete silence all the time.


Stunned silence for me most of the time...


I believe the word is... Awe


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to dave sindel)
Post #: 20
RE: Carrier damage - 12/22/2015 10:59:58 PM   
Admiral DadMan


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From: A Lion uses all its might to catch a Rabbit
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I want my mommy...

_____________________________

Scenario 127: "Scraps of Paper"
(\../)
(O.o)
(> <)

CVB Langley:

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 21
RE: Carrier damage - 12/22/2015 11:07:04 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 6379
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Admiral DadMan

I want my mommy...




_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Admiral DadMan)
Post #: 22
RE: Carrier damage - 12/23/2015 2:09:15 AM   
Lokasenna


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From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi


quote:

ORIGINAL: Admiral DadMan

I. Just. Want. To. Cry.


There's no crying in AE!!!

I hope wailing and gnashing of teeth is still permitted!


I play in complete silence all the time.


Its not good to hold it in.



Hold it in? Nah, I'm just processing. Plotting. Scheming. Calculating. Conniving. Etc.

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 23
RE: Carrier damage - 12/23/2015 2:15:25 AM   
rustysi


Posts: 6379
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

Hold it in? Nah, I'm just processing. Plotting. Scheming. Calculating. Conniving. Etc.




_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 24
RE: Carrier damage - 12/23/2015 10:23:42 AM   
Marshall


Posts: 225
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Let us take 3 examples from the battle of the gilbert islands:

The Hornet:
20-Sep-42 CV Hornet Torpedo hits 1 belt armor pen, critical damage, severe engine damage
11-Oct-42 CV Hornet Bomb hits 1 on fire flight deck pen. Severe fires
18-Oct-42 CV Hornet Torpedo hits 2 belt armor pen severe flooding , critical damage

The Wasp
6-Oct-42 CV Wasp Torpedo hits 1 sub attack type 95 torp explosion below the waterline

The Yorktown
18-Sep-42 CV Yorktown Bomb hits 1 on fire
19-Oct-42 CV Yorktown Bomb hits 1, on fire flight deck penetration, severe damage; torpedo hits 1 belt armor penetration listing counterflooding


I also added s screenshot from the Yorktown, after the last attack

it took me 4 torpedo's for the enterprise and 5 for the Saratoga in this game.
I did not see the Wasp or the Hornet anymore in the final attack on the 19th.
The whole stack is moving 5 hexes! a turn on the 20th, based on that, a speed the Hornet cannot make in my view, and the Yorktown would struggle as well to even keep pace.
Thunderstorms prevented a new attack.
The battle for the Gilbert islands is for now over, the honorable admiral is moving towards Canton Isl. in a safe aircover zone.
Remarkably, the Yorktown was already smoking in my first assault, I think he was on station to long at least already damaged, perhaps a collision who knows.

Of course the Admiral can give us the details
no major plane counts on the operational losses, or field losses. but then the planes have plenty of options to go to in case of a sinking.
I heard multiple sinking's on the 20th, but I also hit his oilers on the 19th and a cargo ship with a sub the next day.

no Wasp or Hornet to be seen, in the attacks from the 19th, that is odd, and no new fleet moved from the main stack towards another destination according to my search planes (and I got the area pretty well covered.)
but I never sunk the Wasp with one torpedo before.

still searching for the Formidable
10-Oct-42 CV Formidable Torpedo hits 1 on fire Fuel storage explosion on CV Formidable

never found that one back as well

My intel says the ships sank, but then, they are notorious optimists and sake addicts.

My thoughts so far:
If the Hornet was afloat, why didn't I see it back in the attack the next day, no stragglers seen falling from the allied death star
If the Yorktown was still afloat, could the stack move 5 hexes in the next turn?





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Marshall -- 12/23/2015 12:56:59 PM >

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 25
RE: Carrier damage - 12/23/2015 12:09:29 PM   
Alfred

 

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And your point is?

If you want your wishful thinking to be confirmed, well the additional data does not greatly aid your wishful thinking to become reality.

1.  Making 5 hexes in a turn is no big deal for a warship TF.  It just means that the slowest ship in the TF , assuming it is one of the damaged CV is down to about 12 knots.  A CV could have about 50% damage and still make that sort of speed.

2.  Ship aircraft only fly off when the flight deck is closed or the ship is in imminent danger of sinking.  The hits you achieved are no where close to guaranteeing the CVs are in just a state.

3.  Even if the aircraft have abandoned the ships, what is stopping you from send a search plane over the nearby airfields to see if they are housing refugees?  If you can't find nearby level 1 AFs housing enemy planes, there goes another support beam to your wishful thinking.

4.  So you haven't spotted the damaged CVs.  Big deal.  If they are belching smoke your search may spot the TF but fail to identify any ships within the TF which are underneath heavy smoke.  Heavy smoke in itself is no guarantee that an American CV, with it's better damage control, is close to floundering.

5.  If your intel is telling you the ships sank, well that may be accurate or it may not be.  Lump it, you are dealing with 1942 technology not 2015 technology.  That is what war is all about, particularly when you agree to play the game with FOW on.

Alfred

(in reply to Marshall)
Post #: 26
RE: Carrier damage - 12/23/2015 12:27:25 PM   
Admiral DadMan


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From: A Lion uses all its might to catch a Rabbit
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The carrier commanders' last orders were "DIVE DIVE DIVE!"

_____________________________

Scenario 127: "Scraps of Paper"
(\../)
(O.o)
(> <)

CVB Langley:

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 27
RE: Carrier damage - 12/23/2015 12:53:42 PM   
Marshall


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I am not doing wishful thinking, I am trying to get a better understanding of the damage.
as the AI calculates the damage done, there must be some kind of formula close enough to use.

If the carriers are sunk or not, they are damaged enough to put them out of action for the next 6 months.
that is the main strategic gain from this battle over a empty coconut island in the Gilberts.

Not seeing the same carrier back when striking again is odd, you would expect it to be in the pack still.
that is my point.

My intel is the most optimistic in the world, and they are not ashamed to recall a sinking 2 weeks to 6 months later.
as they frequently do, I know that.
hence I want my own intel to be better on the damage assessment.

I put in the picture because Crackaces indicated the picture would indicate the damage level

point 3: the closest bases already have the same type of aircraft on it, so it is hard to spot, and intel in numbers isn't the best aspect of my intel guys.
I rather have a good grip on the damage assessment.

But I disagree on the damage statement you make, stating the damage is in nowhere range of sinking a carrier is in my view wrong.
I am almost sure the Hornet is done for.

this thread isn't my wishful thinking of having the USN sunk in a week, I am actually working on a damage calculation system.
to understand what impacts what, and getting all the data from the additional information when a hit is recorded.

I am doing more sandbox testing as well, PBEM against myself to get a good view on the impact of ordinance used, hits recorded and the additional information.

I do believe I should be able to make a calculation model that is pretty accurate.




< Message edited by Marshall -- 12/23/2015 1:56:34 PM >

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 28
RE: Carrier damage - 12/23/2015 1:04:11 PM   
Marshall


Posts: 225
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LOL

it would at least help with putting the fires out!
After the command "Surface" the ship would be in excellent condition and clean!.

(in reply to Admiral DadMan)
Post #: 29
RE: Carrier damage - 12/23/2015 1:30:10 PM   
jwolf

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall

It [diving] would at least help with putting the fires out!
After the command "Surface" the ship would be in excellent condition and clean!



I have often wished for exactly that! Good luck with your carrier battles!

(in reply to Marshall)
Post #: 30
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