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Need Help with Air War - 12/15/2015 8:10:37 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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QBall and I have started a second game, this time with me as the Germans. This is my first time playing the Germans so I am making some mistakes. So far nothing critical (I hope). When I make a mistake with my Ground Game at least afterward I recognize what my mistake was and how to correct it.

The Strategic Air War however still has me befuddled. Below for example are 3 very typical results of the action between my Night Fighters and Bomber Command. As you can see I am generally getting hammered even when I outnumber his NFs. FYI all my NFs are grouped relatively close together, are not using drop tanks and are using their most powerful armament. I don't recall BC being so successful against the German NFs when i was playing the Allies, but I was not paying much attention. So are these results to be expected and, if not, does anyone have any suggestions?




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RE: Need Help with Air War - 12/15/2015 8:44:23 PM   
Helpless


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By some coincidence today I spent half of the day analyzing saves from other game due to the same issue - http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3817644.

Although in your case results are not even near of the losses LW can have, I must admit that this is not the way it should work. I found several issues in the code and in the data, which makes Allied NF "escorts" to works too efficiently, thus diminishing effect of the LF NF.

One of the problems, is that Allied air radar MKVII/VIII has very high effect - 40. Together with radar detector (Serrate) it is giving huge advance. (For example, German FuG202 has just 8). Currently I'm testing the NF escort fix and hopefully it could be released soon. As workaround you may restrict (houserule) Allied Beaufighters and Mosquito NF.XIII to fly night escort missions.

Can you please send (attach) save prior Allied air execution? Thanks.

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RE: Need Help with Air War - 12/15/2015 10:52:19 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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This is a server game so I don't have any saves. But I believe you can get them yourself from the server. As I said I have 2 ongoing games with QBall, obviously this is the one with me as the Germans.

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RE: Need Help with Air War - 12/16/2015 4:21:30 PM   
Q-Ball


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I noticed the same thing. I am only flying escort missions with NF, no night intruder

Harrybanana, check your mission settings for your NF. I shot down alot last turn....were they accidently set to "DN" or "DO"? I have done that as Germany, and the result is Allied day fighters have a field day.

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RE: Need Help with Air War - 12/17/2015 11:35:05 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I noticed the same thing. I am only flying escort missions with NF, no night intruder

Harrybanana, check your mission settings for your NF. I shot down alot last turn....were they accidently set to "DN" or "DO"? I have done that as Germany, and the result is Allied day fighters have a field day.



Yes, last turn I did somehow accidentally set them to D/N. Somewhat ironic as I recently posted how to quickly setup them up for NO. But the examples above were from a prior turn when they were NO.

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RE: Need Help with Air War - 12/26/2015 9:22:21 AM   
bairdlander


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Turn 18 against ai,my NF's are lost 81,the ai 348.Is the wad?

< Message edited by bairdlander -- 12/26/2015 10:23:03 AM >

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RE: Need Help with Air War - 12/27/2015 11:03:37 AM   
szmike

 

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German NFs can't shoot anything down



save file http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=94076560752144928573

< Message edited by szmike -- 12/27/2015 12:07:35 PM >

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RE: Need Help with Air War - 12/27/2015 12:06:44 PM   
Helpless


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German NF could very efficient. I see no issues with their performance.

Even in your screenshot they did lots of damage, which didn't cause immediate kill, but might cause lots of losses, not too speak of reduced bombing efficiency.

Air combat is quite random. Single screenshot doesn't prove much.






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Pavel Zagzin
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RE: Need Help with Air War - 12/27/2015 5:46:12 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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Helpless,

With respect it is not just a "single" screenshot. You have my screenshots as well. I could have posted dozens more but understood from your earlier post that you recognized this as a problem and were planning on doing something about it. If that is not the case then I will post more information. Last turn for example I lost 44 NFs and I think shot down 2 or 3 bombers. You may be correct that I am damaging many more, but the fact is that historically NFs (and flak) shot down a hell of a lot of Bomber Command. Indeed, my understanding is that Bomber Command losses were, on a per mission basis, as high as 8th Airforce. One post I read said that NFs shot sown about 7100 Bomber Command bombers. I am not seeing anything like this in my game.

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RE: Need Help with Air War - 12/27/2015 6:40:18 PM   
Red Lancer


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v15 did make changes to NF behaviour and that has yet to be released.

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RE: Need Help with Air War - 12/27/2015 7:04:23 PM   
Helpless


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quote:

If that is not the case then I will post more information.


We need saves not just screenshots, saves before execution is the only way to show that something is not ok.

As John says, patch made Allied escorts less efficient. We are discussing to reduce Allied NF OOB which was historically used to garrison GB.



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Pavel Zagzin
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Post #: 11
RE: Need Help with Air War - 12/27/2015 7:37:11 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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I only play server games so can't help you with the saves. And even if I didn't play server the save would have to come from before the WA Air execution phase and I am playing the Germans. I assume however that you can load up any of the saves from my server game with QBall. It doesn't matter which turns you load they all have pretty much the same results. Well except for the turn when I mistakenly had my NFs flying D/N, that. of course, was even worse.

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RE: Need Help with Air War - 12/27/2015 9:04:07 PM   
KWG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

quote:

If that is not the case then I will post more information.


We need saves not just screenshots, saves before execution is the only way to show that something is not ok.

As John says, patch made Allied escorts less efficient. We are discussing to reduce Allied NF OOB which was historically used to garrison GB.





Will that be a disadvantage for the Allies. As Germans I like to do a night bombing campaign against England.
Some squadrons limited to night patrols over England ?




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RE: Need Help with Air War - 12/28/2015 9:51:10 AM   
szmike

 

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Imho the problem is not in overeffective allied NFs, but in undereffective German NFs, where they have trouble shooting down bombers even when they fly without escorts.
It's more like their guns and cannons are the problem or maybe too high durability of bombers in comparison?

And yes, I posted one screenshot, but it happens like every other turn. Playing the Allied side against AI it's even worse.

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RE: Need Help with Air War - 12/28/2015 10:06:51 AM   
Helpless


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quote:

Imho the problem is not in overeffective allied NFs, but in undereffective German NFs, where they have trouble shooting down bombers even when they fly without escorts.
It's more like their guns and cannons are the problem or maybe too high durability of bombers in comparison?

And yes, I posted one screenshot, but it happens like every other turn. Playing the Allied side against AI it's even worse.


I don't see it in my tests/games.

German NF start with air radar of low efficiency in 1943, but even so it is enough to make severe casualties.

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Pavel Zagzin
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RE: Need Help with Air War - 12/28/2015 10:09:22 AM   
Helpless


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quote:

As Germans I like to do a night bombing campaign against England.


The problem is that such bombing would have more political consequences which is not in the game.

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RE: Need Help with Air War - 12/28/2015 10:11:47 AM   
Helpless


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quote:

I only play server games so can't help you with the saves.


You can ask Allied player to save off prior air execution and run it. In case of "suspicious" results let us now so we could download the save.

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RE: Need Help with Air War - 12/28/2015 11:03:57 AM   
Helpless


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quote:


I don't see it in my tests/games.


Tests we run looks like that.

This is test save created by Michael Johnson (decourcy2). it consists of 4 night bombing raids on July 24 1943.

"2 raids, one against Essen, one against Hamburg 2 days a week each. Max altitude for the aircraft involved.

Historically, the British lost ~84 bombers to NFs during the 7 major raids of July '43."

Just ran it again and got 64 kills by NF (4 big raids), which is better than historical rate.









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RE: Need Help with Air War - 12/28/2015 7:58:34 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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Helpless,

I actually did almost the same thing in an attempt to prove there is a bug with the German NFs. I started a 43 campaign and played both sides to test this. However, my results were very similar to those above in that the German NFs did not have any problem shooting down large numbers of BC Bombers. Accordingly, I can not explain why in my server game with QBall the German NFs are pretty much useless. I don't think it is due to anything special that QBall is doing. But I assure you it was not just one turn or two that this happened, but rather it was the same dismal results turn after turn after turn. I will continue to monitor and see if perhaps it was just a string of very bad luck. But if things don't change I will post here again.

In the meantime, has anyone else noticed this, or is it just me and szmike?


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RE: Need Help with Air War - 12/28/2015 9:05:41 PM   
bairdlander


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

Turn 18 against ai,my NF's are lost 81,the ai 348.Is the wad?

I should have mentioned I am playing as WA.Does 348 Axis NF's lost seem accurate?

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RE: Need Help with Air War - 12/28/2015 9:34:28 PM   
Helpless


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quote:

I should have mentioned I am playing as WA.Does 348 Axis NF's lost seem accurate?


Losses variation can be quite significant depending on many factors. Some answers could be found in post #2.

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Pavel Zagzin
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RE: Need Help with Air War - 12/30/2015 1:53:17 AM   
Rugens

 

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It seems like this thread and the Night Fighter vs Night Fighter have merged.

Regarding the excessive German Night Fighter losses when going up against large numbers of British Night Fighter Escorts of Bomber Command Night Bombing Missions mentioned in the Night Fighter vs Night Fighter thread, can you tell me please what adjustments are in the next patch?

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RE: Need Help with Air War - 1/7/2016 11:26:45 AM   
Helpless


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quote:

Regarding the excessive German Night Fighter losses when going up against large numbers of British Night Fighter Escorts of Bomber Command Night Bombing Missions mentioned in the Night Fighter vs Night Fighter thread, can you tell me please what adjustments are in the next patch?


Reduced NF "escort" efficiency, especially in 1943.

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Pavel Zagzin
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