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Need Help With DBB OOB - 12/12/2015 7:31:29 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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Playing a DBB-C, Scenario 28 game and am concerned my install is hosed. Specifically on the Aussie OOB. Any experts?

In my game I see no way to form infantry divisions. I am told by an experienced player who is playing IronBabes 30 that some can be formed right away. He said the 4 BDE, 10th, and 15th make up the 2nd ID. In my game the 10th withdraws in the summer of 1942, and no LCUs except the Bird units and a couple of battalions have can-be-combined asterisks in the LCU list. None of the BDEs have organization buttons (left side lower; mine are all greyed out.) There are never any Rebuild Unit buttons.

In my Tracker for this game, in the LCU Production tab, there are no divisions listed, either Active or planned.

I'm concerned I installed the scenario incorrectly. Do other Scenario 28 players have full Aussie Army IDs?

We are at April 17, 1942.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 12/12/2015 8:32:42 PM >


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RE: Need Help With DBB OOB - 12/12/2015 8:32:07 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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I am now informed that in Scen 30 you CAN re-combine the Aussie Army into divisions, and in Scen 28 you can't. Is this correct? Is this planned?

I'd say Scen 28 is a sucker job if so. It ties the Aussies to Oz pretty much, and the IDs in stock are key divisions at a time you have few worth the name.

Nothing I can find on the DBB page reveals this crucial difference. Had I known it would have been Scen 30 for me.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 12/12/2015 9:32:59 PM >


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RE: Need Help With DBB OOB - 12/12/2015 10:23:50 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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42 hits? No help?

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RE: Need Help With DBB OOB - 12/12/2015 11:06:48 PM   
BBfanboy


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I have not played DBB, so I have no answers but I did increment your thread hit count.

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RE: Need Help With DBB OOB - 12/13/2015 7:01:35 AM   
JocMeister

 

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Spent the morning coffee trying to find something but no luck.

Symon doesn´t mention anything about this (nor anyone else) in Australian OOB changes he made in Babes Lite about 2 years ago. Makes me think things have been this way for a long time.

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RE: Need Help With DBB OOB - 12/13/2015 7:11:02 AM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

I am now informed that in Scen 30 you CAN re-combine the Aussie Army into divisions, and in Scen 28 you can't. Is this correct? Is this planned?
Nonsense! I am playing 28-C right now. If it is true it is a bug, not at all something they put in on purpose. I started my game 4 years ago, and they've released a few iterations since then. But no way they deliberately took out forming divisions.

I'd say Scen 28 is a sucker job if so. It ties the Aussies to Oz pretty much, and the IDs in stock are key divisions at a time you have few worth the name.

Nothing I can find on the DBB page reveals this crucial difference. Had I known it would have been Scen 30 for me.



< Message edited by witpqs -- 12/13/2015 8:11:46 AM >


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RE: Need Help With DBB OOB - 12/13/2015 7:40:16 AM   
Yaab


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DBB-c has had several iterations from v11 to v15.

Beginning with v13, the possibility to form Aus division was dropped from the scenario:

https://sites.google.com/site/dababeswitpae/dabigbabes/dabigbabes-c

v013: Aus/NZ/PI TO&E and OOB changes

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RE: Need Help With DBB OOB - 12/13/2015 7:53:53 AM   
JocMeister

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

DBB-c has had several iterations from v11 to v15.

Beginning with v13, the possibility to form Aus division was dropped from the scenario:

https://sites.google.com/site/dababeswitpae/dabigbabes/dabigbabes-c

v013: Aus/NZ/PI TO&E and OOB changes


Yaab, you know if Symon gave any explanation for this? In the thread I found about the OOB changes to the Australians I found no mention of removing the ability to combine the divisions? Admittedly I hadn´t really woken up when I read it.

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RE: Need Help With DBB OOB - 12/13/2015 8:27:22 AM   
Yaab


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I do not know his rationale for this change. I just noticed the switch from divisions in v12 to brigades in v13 when I upgraded the scenario.

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RE: Need Help With DBB OOB - 12/13/2015 12:59:01 PM   
Alfred

 

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Symon notified us about the change in this thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3490082&mpage=1&key=DaBabes

Many posts from Symon discuss the graininess of the OOB.  Post #12 is most on point re Bullwinkle's concern but there are other relevant posts too.  Not spelt out in the above thread but addressed at some length in other threads by Symon, is a general cleaning out of AI actions (not the AI script but the actual internal AI routines).  The reference in post #12 above to the bdes working better is a reference to how the internal AI (again not the scripts) operates.

All of this is why, just before he was banned, Symon announced they would no longer be supporting in the public forum the DaBabes family of mods.  It was no longer possible to attempt to maintain the paradigm of stock.  That final rupture had been building up for a good 12 months, pushed along by so many successful demands from vocal forumites to modify the game code.

The scenario 30 (DaBabesIron) has not been updated since 2012.  Which is why it still retains the possibility of consolidating CMF Bdes into Divs.  Developing the SF scenario in late 2013 - mid 2014 was the catalyst for the new approach to Aust and NZ units.  More in keeping with the historical deployments and thus fully consistent with the rationale of scenario 28 which is the equivalent of scenario 1 viz, the actual historical parameters unlike scenario 2 (and it's equivalent which is scenario 30) which is not historical.

Alfred 

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RE: Need Help With DBB OOB - 12/13/2015 1:58:31 PM   
PaxMondo


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John at his very best in that thread ... miss him. Great loss to the community. Easy to see why he had the role he did with the Henderson dev team.

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RE: Need Help With DBB OOB - 12/13/2015 2:49:09 PM   
witpqs


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OK. I had missed that post (and thereby doing away with the divisions) but I did remember the issue in general as far as the discovery that (presumably with changes Michael has made over time) casualties in large battles are no longer so incredibly focused that all the small units are automatically wiped out. I'm sure that is what made them feel it was viable to do that for the grand campaign.

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RE: Need Help With DBB OOB - 12/13/2015 6:37:04 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Symon notified us about the change in this thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3490082&mpage=1&key=DaBabes

Many posts from Symon discuss the graininess of the OOB.  Post #12 is most on point re Bullwinkle's concern but there are other relevant posts too.  Not spelt out in the above thread but addressed at some length in other threads by Symon, is a general cleaning out of AI actions (not the AI script but the actual internal AI routines).  The reference in post #12 above to the bdes working better is a reference to how the internal AI (again not the scripts) operates.

All of this is why, just before he was banned, Symon announced they would no longer be supporting in the public forum the DaBabes family of mods.  It was no longer possible to attempt to maintain the paradigm of stock.  That final rupture had been building up for a good 12 months, pushed along by so many successful demands from vocal forumites to modify the game code.

The scenario 30 (DaBabesIron) has not been updated since 2012.  Which is why it still retains the possibility of consolidating CMF Bdes into Divs.  Developing the SF scenario in late 2013 - mid 2014 was the catalyst for the new approach to Aust and NZ units.  More in keeping with the historical deployments and thus fully consistent with the rationale of scenario 28 which is the equivalent of scenario 1 viz, the actual historical parameters unlike scenario 2 (and it's equivalent which is scenario 30) which is not historical.

Alfred 


I hoped if I whined enough Alfred would come along.

I've been through an evolution on this matter in 24 hours. How I even got into a DBB game and how the scenario was selected is germane, but not going to go into it. Water, bridge. At the time I was not that up-to-date on DBB; I had not followed a lot of the threads as I figured I'd never play them. I had not seen the one Alfred cites. I searched on four AND strings yesterday, but this one was a Babes Lite thread that moved into DBB, so I wouldn't have ever found it anyway. I did recall Symon speaking at length about the desire to overhaul the Indian Army, but the Aussie stuff was new to me.

When my opponent and I were negotiating scenarios I had finished one PBEM in Stock 2, and was in another with Lokasenna, who I quickly found out doesn't need the help to beat me. I didn't know my new opponent at all, and was hesitant to play another Stock 2 variant. Hence DBB-C, Scen 28. I looked at the Babes site and to me, without more research, anything with "Iron" in the title had to be harder than not. There wasn't any discussion of the Aussie OOB, just the one-liner in the version stack that something related to the Aussies had happened since DBB first appeared. I didn't dig.

It has been gratifying to see that DBB vets with far more history in the mods than me were also unaware of the OOB alterations that make division building impossible.

Reading the thread Alfred cites I'm impressed that Symon first tried to make the OOB changes work with AI scripts so BabesLite would be serviced. And he certainly did the legwork on primary sources to do his level best to make the OOB historical. And, further, he was on record many times as seeing the evolved game culture of a "mandatory" invasion of one of the Big Three--Oz, India, Hawaii--as RL ludicrous. If, in the game, an invasion of Oz does not happen then the new DBB OOB is fine. And his point that brigades are far more useful in the islands of the DEI and in NG is on point. But, in the game, if a multi-division invasion of Oz happens early--in my game in March 1942, on three coasts--then the OOB is a problem. How big a problem I can't say as I don't fully understand the friction losses in fighting three brigades versus one division with unity of command and devices, but my impression has always been IDs are better against IDs than multiple brigades against IDs. And the early withdrawal of the LH cavalry, to be re-formed as weak, untrained armor, is also historic but really a big problem of coverage in the game in an early-invasion situation. There just isn't enough butter to cover the bread in April. And Japan can and does land hundreds of AFVs in this period.

So, I guess I end up with several things. My original question is answered and no, I'm not imagining things nor do I have a broken install. Second, I might have performed a public service in bringing to light a DBB reality that IronBabes still plays the stock way re division combos at the cost of a super-charged Japanese economy. And that some DBB players didn't know this either. And lastly, that I will need to play my game as is, to look ahead more fully at upgrades and buy-outs, in ways I never had to do in stock.


< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 12/13/2015 7:41:12 PM >


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