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SEAD vs Spoon Rest

 
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SEAD vs Spoon Rest - 12/7/2015 1:32:09 PM   
ColonelMolerat

 

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I've had a similar problem before, and I thought I understood... But I obviously don't!

I've been trying to attack SAM sites that possess 'Spoon Rest' (Radar, Air-Search, Medium-Range) radars with F-4G Phantom II [Wild Weasels] equipped with AGM-45B Shrike [ARM] missiles.

Using the editor, if you make sure the Spoon Rests are active, the Shrikes still get 'target not radiating' as a reason for not being able to fire.

I assume they can't attack the type of radar facility that a Spoon Rest is... But how would I know? What should I look for when deciding SEAD targets? I understand that Shrikes can't target the Radar Illuminators - but aren't Spoon Rests a more 'ordinary' search radar?

I've attached a save as an example. Thanks!

Attachment (1)
Post #: 1
RE: SEAD vs Spoon Rest - 12/7/2015 2:23:08 PM   
wild_Willie2


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Most likely the Shrike's radar reciever can't operate in the radar band that the Spoon rest is working in, although I can't look this up in the database myself right now. Try having a look yourself.

W.

Edit:

A quick look at wikipedia showed this: The Shrike's limitations are characterized primarily in the fact that subvariants abound, each tuned to a different radar band.

< Message edited by wild_Willie2 -- 12/7/2015 3:27:28 PM >


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RE: SEAD vs Spoon Rest - 12/7/2015 2:30:53 PM   
ColonelMolerat

 

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I see. How would I know before launching a SEAD mission? (Or would this be something that wouldn't be known in real life either?)

I've also just checked the database - the Spoon Rest emits from bands A-M, but I don't know how to check what the F-4 Wild Weasel can detect.

< Message edited by ColonelMolerat -- 12/7/2015 3:34:18 PM >

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RE: SEAD vs Spoon Rest - 12/7/2015 2:47:55 PM   
Rudd

 

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Looks like possible issue or with AN/APR-38 RHAWS on #1328 F-4G, or maybe the RHAWS can't listen in that part of the spectrum.

It doesn't appear to be 'seeing' the Fan Song or Spoon Rest, if you add a RC-135U, it picks up both radars right away and you can fire manually

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RE: SEAD vs Spoon Rest - 12/7/2015 3:20:13 PM   
FlyingBear

 

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quote:

I understand that Shrikes can't target the Radar Illuminators - but aren't Spoon Rests a more 'ordinary' search radar?


To my understanding it is the other way around - Shrike was developed specifically to take out SAM and AAA fire control radars, and while I guess it could also target a search radar that uses the same frequency band it would not be able to attack a VHF set like the Spoon Rest.

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RE: SEAD vs Spoon Rest - 12/7/2015 3:25:16 PM   
ColonelMolerat

 

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I see. Now I'm really confused!

So the missile can have its targeting info transmitted from another aircraft (the RC-135U)?

The sensors in the F-4 can't detect the Spoon Rest, but those on the RC-135U can, and pass those on to the missiles in the F4?

Any idea why this is? I assume it's working as intended.

< Message edited by ColonelMolerat -- 12/7/2015 4:28:15 PM >

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RE: SEAD vs Spoon Rest - 12/7/2015 6:00:39 PM   
Dimitris

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ColonelMolerat
I see. Now I'm really confused!

So the missile can have its targeting info transmitted from another aircraft (the RC-135U)?

The sensors in the F-4 can't detect the Spoon Rest, but those on the RC-135U can, and pass those on to the missiles in the F4?

Any idea why this is? I assume it's working as intended.


It's a bit more complicated.

Some missiles can indeed be launched "blind" based on targeting data from other platforms, but this is true only if the missile supports BOL-mode launch, ie. launching down a general bearing or a specific set of coordinates and then having the missile seeker start searching once it reaches that point. The HARM anti-radar missile is a good example. This ability is also commonly referred to as "Lock On After Launch" (LOAL).

Older anti-radar missiles, like the Shrike, do not have this ability and strictly require "Lock On Before Launch" (LOBL), ie. they absolutely need to detect the target emitter before they go off the rail.

In the latter case the RC-135 can still help you by giving you an early cue towards the target (well before your onboard radar detectors do), but you are still hampered by the LOBL restriction.

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RE: SEAD vs Spoon Rest - 12/7/2015 6:10:25 PM   
wild_Willie2


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I am behind my computer again and have to agree that Rudd is right, the RHAWS detector on the F4 can't detect the Fan Song band and as the Shrike is not BOL capable, you will first need to detect the radar before you can fire a Shrike at it. The Spoon rest c works in the 150-170 MHZ "A" band while the AN/APR-38 operates in the 0.6-18 GHz frequency range, so the APR-38 cant detect the Fan Song.

However, the missile does not need any guidance to the target, it only needs to know where the target is so if you have another AC with a better RWR in the area, this AC will detect the radar and then the Shrike can be fired at it. In real life this would not be so easy to achieve, but in Command every unit knows exactly as much as you do yourself and so these pass offs are achieved without any of the real live problems.

Source for the AN/APR-38 data:

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a348280.pdf





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RE: SEAD vs Spoon Rest - 12/7/2015 8:47:20 PM   
PN79

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2
...
The Spoon rest c works in the 150-170 MHZ "A" band while the AN/APR-38 operates in the 0.6-18 GHz frequency range, so the APR-38 cant detect the Fan Song.
...


I am confused by this sentence. Fan Song (RSNA/RSN-75) is completely different radar than Spoon Rest (P-12/P-18). Shrike can target active Fan Song. But Shrike cannot attack Spoon Rest as it is VHF radar which are practically immune to ARM missiles.

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RE: SEAD vs Spoon Rest - 12/7/2015 11:01:54 PM   
ColonelMolerat

 

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Ok, I understand now, thanks all!

My only remaining question is how do I know this stuff in advance? Is it a case of simply *knowing* - ie, researching from outside sources - or is there any system in CMANO that tells me?

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RE: SEAD vs Spoon Rest - 12/7/2015 11:29:32 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ColonelMolerat

Ok, I understand now, thanks all!

My only remaining question is how do I know this stuff in advance? Is it a case of simply *knowing* - ie, researching from outside sources - or is there any system in CMANO that tells me?


Just looking at the number of questions you've posted that have been covered by the manual documenting everything down to the last detail wouldn't have done us much good as you would have not read it and asked anyways Just sayin..

The manual weapons dialog is actually very good at telling you why weapons won't fire and the manual does have explanations of the messages.

There are admittedly lots of complex things we haven't documented and probably should. We hope to get to these someday after we finish most of our development goals. I think most are happy about where our focus is for now so we'll be here for awhile. If you do have questions continue to ask.

Mike

< Message edited by mikmyk -- 12/8/2015 12:30:07 AM >


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RE: SEAD vs Spoon Rest - 12/8/2015 1:16:57 AM   
ColonelMolerat

 

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Sorry, I have been reading the manual... It's just overwhelming when I'm searching through the manual, the FAQ, the forums, and Google for an answer that may only be in one of those places. I sometimes forget to look in the right one. Sorry if I'm getting annoying! For every stupid question I ask, I solve a dozen more after scratching my head for ages. So take some solace... I could be more annoying!

The Manual Weapons Dialogue simply says "Weapon must detect target prior to firing" or "Target Not Radiating". I've read the section covering that in the manual, and I understand that these SEAD planes need a radar emission. I just don't know how one is supposed to discover that an (active) Spoon Rest radar is not detectable/not counted as radiating by an F4 with a AN/APR-38 (and by extension, other radar/detector match-ups). If it's trial-and-error, or requires research outside the game, I understand (and that can be part of the fun!) - but I was wondering if I had missed something in-game. Looks like I just need to research my sensor frequencies online.

< Message edited by ColonelMolerat -- 12/8/2015 2:52:21 AM >

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RE: SEAD vs Spoon Rest - 12/8/2015 5:57:00 AM   
AFIntel


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I've read thru the posts here. I'm still not quite sure if the limitation of ARMs against the SPOON REST is reality or game limited.

In real-life, though, ARMs are generally coded and geared toward threat radars: Target-tracking radars (TTR), Target Engagement Radars (TERS), and to a small degree AAA radars. FAN SONG is a TTR. SPOON REST is a target acquisition radar (TAR).

Think of a threat radar as one that is linked with a weapon system: FAN SONG, SQUARE PAIR, STRAIGHT FLUSH, etc. Acquisition radars (SPOON REST, SIDE NET, ODD PAIR, TALL KING) are simply radars that track targets, nothing more. Their tracks are passed along (to be simplistic) to a threat site with a TTR/TER.

In essence, your ARMs are geared toward the threat radars. SPOON REST were the traditional TARs for the SA-2. But they are also used as a general early warning radar (EW). This is one of the reasons that EW radars are not generally coded in aircraft RWR's: a RWR can only handle and display so many radars to the pilot at once. If the country you're going against uses SPOON REST as a TAR for SA-2's AND as an EW radar, the RWR gets filled to capacity quickly by radars that don't pose a threat - is that a SAM's SPOON REST, or an EW site's SPOON REST? If your RWR displays a FAN SONG, however, you know that's a SAM site.

Lastly, you'll generally not want to waste an ARM against a TAR anyway. Many SAMs have various methods to receive targeting information. An on-site TAR is preferred and convenient, but not the only source that can be used. The TTR and TER (that ARMs are geared toward), on the other hand, are mandatory for a SAM engagement. Take the FAN SONG out, the SA-2 is useless. Take the SQUARE PAIR out, the SA-5 is useless, take the STRAIGHT FLUSH TTR out, the SA-6 is useless...

Don't know if that helps, but that's my two cents from the field.

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RE: SEAD vs Spoon Rest - 12/8/2015 9:11:34 AM   
wild_Willie2


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In real life, there were many different models of the Shrike, each optimized for tracking different radar wavelengths. However, in game we only have a single model that can attack virtually all emitters. The problem of the OP was that the Shrike’s carrier could not detect the emitter in question so the missile (that could track the emitter btw) could not be fired. Once the emitter was detected by another AC, the Shrike could be fired, problem solved.

This game does it’s best to simulate reality, but to keep things manageable, some shortcuts have been made (i.e. No fuel needed at home bases, unlimited datalinks, instant communication and data sharing and the decision to make some weapons bearing only launch capable and some not).

The AI is also limited in its responses to destroyed radar emitters as it will not automatically turn on illumination radars once the acquisition radars are destroyed. So in-game, taking out only the acquisition radars is a viable option to virtually neutralise the SAM system. However, if a target is spotted by any other means and if it’s also in range of the SAM with the destroyed acquisition radar, the AI will turn on the illumination radar and will try to engage the target in question.

Remember that it’s just a game and that the AI is not a crafty and original human opponent, so both the AI and game have limitation that can be used/abused in order to win.


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In vinum illic est sapientia , in matera illic est vires , in aqua illic es bacteria.

In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there are bacteria.

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RE: SEAD vs Spoon Rest - 12/8/2015 10:09:54 AM   
ColonelMolerat

 

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Thanks! I'm learning gradually. I hadn't realised that ARMs weren't really used for attacking TARs/EWs, but were more specifically for threat radars. Makes sense that the sensor on the F4 Wild Weasel would be geared only towards those (but that another plane/sensor could help locate the targets for them instead).

< Message edited by ColonelMolerat -- 12/8/2015 3:16:19 PM >

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