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Can AS-11 Kilters Destrroy Hat Boxes?

 
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Can AS-11 Kilters Destrroy Hat Boxes? - 11/28/2015 2:15:26 AM   
ColonelMolerat

 

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I'm playing Hunting Day, 2008, and after some initial success with my Fencer D's carrying AS-11 Kilters, they seem to have lost effectiveness.

(Among others) there are two SAM vehicles - SA-13 Gopher [9K35 Strela-10]s. These have Hat Box Radar.

My Kilter [Kh-58, ARM] missiles are passive radar seekers, I *think* being guided by L-080 Fantasmagoria-A Emitter Locators (for ARM Missiles).

These missiles can't fire because 'No threat emitters are currently radiating'.

Does this mean that the Kilters *can* destroy the Hat Box-equipped SAM sites, but these have currently turned off their radar? Or am I missing something else?

What should I be looking for in a SEAD missile? All I know is they seek out enemy radar.

Edit:

Also, is there a way to set up a SEAD mission so my planes will hang about outside of enemy AA range until they (the planes) are able to fire?

If I set up a SEAD mission with 'Investigate targets outside the patrol area' ON , the planes fly straight up to the AA; if I set up a mission with 'Investigate...' OFF, they won't fire at targets outside the mission area. If the mission area covers the AA, the planes fly right up to the AA again.

Edit 2:

Just realised, I can probably find this information on the forums or in the manual. Sorry, I got a bit exasperated, and asked without thinking!

< Message edited by ColonelMolerat -- 11/28/2015 3:59:58 AM >
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RE: Can AS-11 Kilters Destrroy Hat Boxes? - 11/28/2015 11:32:10 AM   
Gneckes

 

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As far as I know, the HAT BOX radar is a range-only radar, its only purpose being to make sure the target is actually in firing range to avoid wasting missiles.
As such, it would probably only be radiating for a short time prior firing.

An other thing: check the frequency bands detected by the L-080 and Kh-58 versus what band the HAT BOX emits.

(in reply to ColonelMolerat)
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RE: Can AS-11 Kilters Destrroy Hat Boxes? - 11/28/2015 11:46:01 AM   
DESRON420

 

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SA-13 / 9K35 Strela-10 is IR guided and does not need its radars to launch

When thinking about a SEAD strategy or SEAD missile, consider the type of fire control sensors used by the SAMs and any limitations of the SAMs. Tactics that exploit the SAM's weaknesses will work best. In the SA-13's case the 9M35 missile has a maximum range of 4 nm and a maximum altitude of 12000 feet. This means that they are easily destroyed with LGBs from high altitude if the weather is clear. If the weather is not clear, you can use AS-10 Karen which has a max range of 6 nm and a max launch altitude of about 15000 feet.

< Message edited by DESRON420 -- 11/28/2015 1:11:57 PM >

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RE: Can AS-11 Kilters Destrroy Hat Boxes? - 11/28/2015 12:04:25 PM   
ColonelMolerat

 

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Thanks you two!

A few minutes after posting, one of my Kilters fired at a Hat Box - when the Hat Box had been about to open fire on another plane.

So, I understand, the Hat Box simply detects if the target's in range of the IR Strela missiles. I can take them out with Kilters if I fly a plane nearby as 'bait'.

My ground-attack planes are getting absolutely destroyed. Even if I have to wait for the Hat Box/Strelas to fire (and possibly down one plane), if I can then take them out with a Kilter, it'll be worth it.

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RE: Can AS-11 Kilters Destrroy Hat Boxes? - 11/28/2015 12:09:33 PM   
Gneckes

 

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Well to be honest I'd consider the Kh-58 with its large warhead and long range overkill against a Strela - in addition to the lack of reliability as discussed. Maybe try some smaller, laser- or TV-guided AGMs, if you have them available in your scenario, of course.

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RE: Can AS-11 Kilters Destrroy Hat Boxes? - 11/28/2015 12:23:43 PM   
Sardaukar


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Besides, when Hat Box emits, you might already have Strelas on the way. Since it is just used to check if target is within range. Strelas are IR guided.

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(in reply to Gneckes)
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RE: Can AS-11 Kilters Destrroy Hat Boxes? - 11/28/2015 12:42:39 PM   
Gunner98

 

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Good job for decoys if you have them.

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RE: Can AS-11 Kilters Destrroy Hat Boxes? - 11/28/2015 2:46:31 PM   
ColonelMolerat

 

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I won the scenario, but took really heavy losses against those Strelas (the Kilters were the only weapon I had that had a longer range).

How do I tell what signatures my Kilters/Fantasmagorias can detect? The Gopher (if I'm reading the DB right) emits Radar bands A-D and D-M.

I also seemed to have the problem that the enemy weapons were emitting (contact reports showing <1sec since last detection), but the weapon couldn't pick it up, despite the Fantasmagoria having plenty of range.

How do I tell in advance if a SEAD plane like this can or cannot fire on radar-emitting targets? Even though it's only range-finding radar, my Kilters should be able to fire when it turns on, shouldn't they?

EDIT:

Hold on! The kilter is a passive-only seeker. The Hat Box is range-only, and therefore an active radar? Is that my problem?

< Message edited by ColonelMolerat -- 11/28/2015 3:49:39 PM >

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RE: Can AS-11 Kilters Destrroy Hat Boxes? - 11/28/2015 3:03:36 PM   
DESRON420

 

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What is happening is that the SA-13 is briefly turning the HAT BOX on to locate your aircraft. The fire control sensor that guides the SA-13 9M35 rocket to intersect with the target is based on IR. There is no fire control illuminator as you would have with a radar guided SAM, so the SA-13 shuts off its radar once it has located your aircraft for acquisition by the IR tracking. So firing an AS-11 Kilter at an SA-13 that has already detected your aircraft will not have any effect. The Kilter might destroy the search radar, but missiles can still launch.


< Message edited by DESRON420 -- 11/28/2015 4:04:36 PM >

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RE: Can AS-11 Kilters Destrroy Hat Boxes? - 11/28/2015 5:31:45 PM   
Gneckes

 

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Actually, the Hat Box isn't a target location radar- for that, the Strela formations are paired with Long Track, Flat Face or Square Eye mobile acquisition radars.
The HatBox is purely range-only to ensure the target is within launch parameters before firing.
You're correct however that the Hat Box only emits for a brief period before firing.

As for checking the emission band, that's my bad. I thought you could look up these things in the database for the respective sensors, but apparently not.

(in reply to DESRON420)
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RE: Can AS-11 Kilters Destrroy Hat Boxes? - 11/29/2015 5:17:24 PM   
ColonelMolerat

 

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Thanks, all.

One last clarification: if a Kilter gets a lock from a Hat Box when the hat box activates to get range (can they even lock onto this?), can the Kilter then fire and destroy it? Or will the Kilter not be able to keep tracking the Hat Box once the radar stops emitting? (I'm hoping that by targeting the Hat Box, the SAM will get caught in the blast)

(in reply to Gneckes)
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RE: Can AS-11 Kilters Destrroy Hat Boxes? - 11/29/2015 5:20:38 PM   
Gneckes

 

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The Hat Box is mounted on the SA-13/Strela-10 TELAR, so yes, it will definitely get in the blast. Specifically, it's the parabolic antenna between the launch canisters.
Modern ARMs also have inertial navigation and will thus go for the last known emitter location, but I have no idea if the Kilter has that capability.

(in reply to ColonelMolerat)
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