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2 magazine explosions in one combat - quite rare and sinks both CA involved

 
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2 magazine explosions in one combat - quite rare and si... - 11/8/2015 5:54:17 PM   
Cavalry Corp

 

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PBEM RA scn July 42





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Amchitka Island at 158,52, Range 2,000 Yards

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
E13A1 Jake: 4 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
SOC-1 Seagull: 2 destroyed

Japanese Ships
CA Chokai, Shell hits 3, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
CL Natori, Shell hits 3, on fire
CL Kinu
DD Kamikaze
DD Harukaze

Allied Ships
CA Northampton, Shell hits 15, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
DD Selfridge, Shell hits 1
DD Aylwin
DD Monaghan

Low visibility due to Thunderstorms with 28% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Thunderstorms and 28% moonlight: 2,000 yards
Range closes to 20,000 yards...
Range closes to 14,000 yards...
Range closes to 8,000 yards...
Range closes to 4,000 yards...
Range closes to 2,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 2,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 2,000 yards
Craven, F. crosses the 'T'
CA Chokai engages CA Northampton at 2,000 yards
CA Northampton engages CL Kinu at 2,000 yards
CL Kinu engages DD Aylwin at 2,000 yards
CA Chokai engages DD Selfridge at 2,000 yards
DD Kamikaze engages DD Aylwin at 2,000 yards
CA Northampton engages CA Chokai at 2,000 yards
CL Kinu engages CA Northampton at 2,000 yards
CA Northampton engages CL Natori at 2,000 yards
DD Selfridge engages CL Natori at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 4,000 yards
CA Northampton engages CL Natori at 4,000 yards
CL Kinu engages CA Northampton at 4,000 yards
Magazine explodes on CA Northampton
CA Northampton sunk by CL Natori at 4,000 yards
DD Kamikaze engages DD Selfridge at 4,000 yards
Range increases to 5,000 yards
Magazine explodes on CA Chokai
CA Chokai sunk by DD Aylwin at 5,000 yards
CL Kinu engages DD Selfridge at 5,000 yards
CL Natori engages DD Selfridge at 5,000 yards
Range increases to 7,000 yards
CL Kinu engages DD Monaghan at 7,000 yards
CL Natori engages DD Selfridge at 7,000 yards
DD Selfridge engages DD Harukaze at 7,000 yards
DD Aylwin engages DD Kamikaze at 7,000 yards
Task forces break off...
Post #: 1
RE: 2 magazine explosions in one combat - quite rare an... - 11/8/2015 8:17:04 PM   
BBfanboy


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That IS a rarity!
The Allies got the better of the deal- Chokai is (was) a much more dangerous ship than Northampton.
And the magazine explosion on Northampton was superfluous - with three torp hits it was going down anyway!

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RE: 2 magazine explosions in one combat - quite rare an... - 11/9/2015 10:21:34 AM   
Cavalry Corp

 

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Agreed it was a good swap I am allies.

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RE: 2 magazine explosions in one combat - quite rare an... - 11/9/2015 10:46:32 AM   
spence

 

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quote:

At 0859, a secondary explosion, probably caused by CHOKAI's own torpedoes on deck, knocks out her engines and rudder. She shears out of formation to port and moves eastward.


Not exactly a magazine explosion but a major contributor to Chokai's demise. Interestingly in the same engagement off Samar:

quote:

At 1050, SUZUYA is attacked by 30 other carrier aircraft. A near-miss to starboard by a bomb sets off SUZUYA's No. 1 torpedo tubes loaded with oxygen-propelled Type 93 "Long Lance" torpedoes. At 1100, additional torpedoes start to explode. The fire and blasts damage the starboard engine rooms and the No. 7 boiler room. SUZUYA becomes unnavigable.


It might have been a bad day for the IJN in the game but real history was worse in this respect.

Quotes from the TROMs of HIJMS Chokai and HIJMS Suzuya at Combined Fleet

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RE: 2 magazine explosions in one combat - quite rare an... - 11/9/2015 12:07:21 PM   
spence

 

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Commonwealth cruisers also carried torpedoes. Anyone know if a secondary explosion of their own torpedoes caused the loss of any RN etc cruisers. Type 93s did in Chokai, Suzuya, Mikuma, and IIRC a couple of IJN light cruisers and destroyers. The USN got rid of their cruiser's torpedoes in the 30s because of the threat of secondary explosions.

Was the perceived threat of secondary explosion borne out only by the Type 93?

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RE: 2 magazine explosions in one combat - quite rare an... - 11/9/2015 1:21:42 PM   
Lecivius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

Was the perceived threat of secondary explosion borne out only by the Type 93?


Secondaries were not something unique to the Type 93, but they were far and away more prone to them due to their fuel type.

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RE: 2 magazine explosions in one combat - quite rare an... - 11/9/2015 2:03:13 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

Commonwealth cruisers also carried torpedoes. Anyone know if a secondary explosion of their own torpedoes caused the loss of any RN etc cruisers. Type 93s did in Chokai, Suzuya, Mikuma, and IIRC a couple of IJN light cruisers and destroyers. The USN got rid of their cruiser's torpedoes in the 30s because of the threat of secondary explosions.

Was the perceived threat of secondary explosion borne out only by the Type 93?


HMAS Sydney was damaged by its engagement with a German raider (Kormoran?) and last seen drifting into the night before an explosion over the horizon was seen by Kormoran's survivors. All of Sydney's crew were lost. The explosion seen could have been torpedoes or main magazine.

Allied cruisers did not have LOX tanks near their torpedo tubes to stoke fires, and if anything threatened the torpedoes they were quick to jettison them.

Allied DDs' depth charges sometimes did not get set "safe" during a sinking and went off as the ship went down, but I am not aware of any going off during a battle and causing the DD to sink.

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RE: 2 magazine explosions in one combat - quite rare an... - 11/9/2015 8:49:02 PM   
wdolson

 

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Japanese torpedoes used oxygen as a propellant, which left no bubble trail in the water, but would fuel any fire and could detonate the torpedoes on board the ship. Allied torpedoes used propellants that were safer to store and didn't have that problem, though I suppose a hit near the torpedoes could set them off. US DDs didn't carry torpedo reloads and their torpedoes were often already launched by the time they took heavy damage in surface battles. By the time of the kamikaze threat, a lot of DDs had traded their torpedoes mounts for extra 40mm tubs.

Bill

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RE: 2 magazine explosions in one combat - quite rare an... - 11/9/2015 9:43:49 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

Japanese torpedoes used oxygen as a propellant, which left no bubble trail in the water, but would fuel any fire and could detonate the torpedoes on board the ship. Allied torpedoes used propellants that were safer to store and didn't have that problem, though I suppose a hit near the torpedoes could set them off. US DDs didn't carry torpedo reloads and their torpedoes were often already launched by the time they took heavy damage in surface battles. By the time of the kamikaze threat, a lot of DDs had traded their torpedoes mounts for extra 40mm tubs.

Bill


Lots of people refer to oxygen as a propellant - which it is not. It promotes burning by providing more oxidant for the process, but you must still have something that it will help burn. IIRC the Japanese fuel was alcohol, which produced mostly water vapour when it burned and this quickly cooled and merged with the seawater to eliminate bubbles. Western navies used alcohol (AKA torpedo juice) as the fuel, and compressed air in a tank to provide the oxidant. It was the nitrogen in the compressed air that left the bubble trail.

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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RE: 2 magazine explosions in one combat - quite rare an... - 11/9/2015 11:22:56 PM   
wdolson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

Japanese torpedoes used oxygen as a propellant, which left no bubble trail in the water, but would fuel any fire and could detonate the torpedoes on board the ship. Allied torpedoes used propellants that were safer to store and didn't have that problem, though I suppose a hit near the torpedoes could set them off. US DDs didn't carry torpedo reloads and their torpedoes were often already launched by the time they took heavy damage in surface battles. By the time of the kamikaze threat, a lot of DDs had traded their torpedoes mounts for extra 40mm tubs.

Bill


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
Lots of people refer to oxygen as a propellant - which it is not. It promotes burning by providing more oxidant for the process, but you must still have something that it will help burn. IIRC the Japanese fuel was alcohol, which produced mostly water vapour when it burned and this quickly cooled and merged with the seawater to eliminate bubbles. Western navies used alcohol (AKA torpedo juice) as the fuel, and compressed air in a tank to provide the oxidant. It was the nitrogen in the compressed air that left the bubble trail.


Thanks for the clarification.

Bill

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RE: 2 magazine explosions in one combat - quite rare an... - 11/10/2015 11:36:50 PM   
rustysi


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As said above Mikuma's torps caused major damage when they exploded while on board during the Battle of Midway. On the ship operating with her (Mogami?) I believe it was the torpedo officer who had the good sense to fire off her stock to eliminate said danger when they came under air attack. IIRC correctly it was a good thing too because she was hit in the torp area.

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RE: 2 magazine explosions in one combat - quite rare an... - 11/11/2015 12:02:14 AM   
spence

 

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quote:

officer who had the good sense to fire off her stock to eliminate said danger when they came under air attack


You're probably right about it being the torpedo officer but I'm also pretty sure he fired off the torpedoes after the Mogami was hit by a bomb and set afire in the vicinity of the torpedo launchers (both cruisers hit in the same vicinity). Firing off the torpedoes before the ship was even under attack would probably earned him his next billet as assistance rice distribution officer on some atoll 1000 miles from the nearest afloat unit.

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Post #: 12
RE: 2 magazine explosions in one combat - quite rare an... - 11/11/2015 1:08:27 AM   
wdolson

 

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In the collision, the Mogami was more severely damaged and they knew they were going to still be within range of American air attacks the next morning. The Mogami was damaged badly enough that it was clear she was not going to be very effective in a surface fight if the US threw surface assets at them. The goal was to lighten the ship and reduce potential fire dangers, so they ejected the torpedoes. The Mikuma was only lightly damaged by the collision and I believe her top speed was reduced a little, she could have fled out of American bomber range, but chose to screen her damaged sister. She kept her torpedoes to deal with any surface attacks by the Americans. The choice proved fatal and ironically the Mogami which was more severely damaged by the collision survived and was put back into service after a lengthy repair and rebuild.

Bill

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RE: 2 magazine explosions in one combat - quite rare an... - 11/11/2015 1:41:22 AM   
spence

 

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So I guess I got it only half right...it was the Damage Control Officer who got rid of Mogami's torpedoes but "Shattered Sword" does say he did get rid of them before the air attacks materialized.

Incidentally it seems that the torpedoes on HMAS Sydney weren't the cause of the flash observed over the horizon by the survivors of the Kormorant. Sydney fired two of it 8 torps at Kormorant but I guess the survey of the wreck found the rest still in their tubes.

So wasn't the Type 93 a statistically more significant secondary explosion hazard to ships so equipped than the "standard fuel, air-oxidized" torpedo carried by ships of the Allied navies?

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RE: 2 magazine explosions in one combat - quite rare an... - 11/11/2015 2:20:09 PM   
BBfanboy


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Thanks for the update on Sydney, spence. I was not aware her wreck had been found.
Things that damage a ship tend to produce white hot gases and pieces of metal that start fires. Any of these rupturing the LOX tanks of the torpedoes or the service carts with more LOX would cause anything set afire to burn very quickly. Then there is the issue of Japanese Type 93 torpedoes having much bigger warheads than the Allied ones, so a detonation on board would tear the ship down to the waterline or more.

At Cape Esperance, CA San Francisco blew up DD Fubuki but I am unsure if it was torpedoes or a magazine that blew up.

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RE: 2 magazine explosions in one combat - quite rare an... - 11/11/2015 9:00:26 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

So wasn't the Type 93 a statistically more significant secondary explosion hazard to ships so equipped than the "standard fuel, air-oxidized" torpedo carried by ships of the Allied navies?


That's my understanding, but then again... Also most Japanese ships that carried torps carried reloads which was not the case on Allied ships.

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It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

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RE: 2 magazine explosions in one combat - quite rare an... - 11/11/2015 9:47:50 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

So wasn't the Type 93 a statistically more significant secondary explosion hazard to ships so equipped than the "standard fuel, air-oxidized" torpedo carried by ships of the Allied navies?


That's my understanding, but then again... Also most Japanese ships that carried torps carried reloads which was not the case on Allied ships.

Yeah - it's really true that warships are just ammunition ships with guns and tubes for unloading, so any hit can make them go boom.

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RE: 2 magazine explosions in one combat - quite rare an... - 11/11/2015 10:06:58 PM   
spence

 

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Not sure if this will actually post here but it is a picture taken of HIJMS Mikuma from close aboard. I sorta think that I see the torpedo tubes hanging out to the side more or less to the right side of the photo. The structure of the ship has certainly been noticeably damaged by the secondary explosion in the vicinity of the the torpedo tubes. Guess I have to just let folks go to the Battle of Midway Roundtable (a really interesting website BTW)

http://www.midway42.org/Features/ShowPicture.aspx?image=Link15-Mikuma-damage.jpg


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RE: 2 magazine explosions in one combat - quite rare an... - 11/12/2015 1:54:02 AM   
wdolson

 

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The forward torpedo tubes are deployed. It looks like they launched them to dump them overboard. On the other hand if the reloads went off, it could have thrown the tubes out.

IJN CA torpedo tubes were one deck down from the top deck. The Mikuma had 4 sets of tubes, 2 per side. The forward tubes were just behind the rear secondary turret (5 inch I believe) by the funnel, just forward of the catapult. The rear tubes were between the catapult and rear 8 inch turrets.

Bill

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RE: 2 magazine explosions in one combat - quite rare an... - 11/12/2015 3:27:29 AM   
BBfanboy


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I remember a picture from another angle further aft that shows that the torpedoes are half out of the tubes, as though they tried to jettison them but the did not eject completely. May have been the aft tubes that are not in this picture.

Also note the remains of an SBD aircraft crashed on the top of the X Turret - it caused most of the damage to the ship when it was shot down and the pilot dove it into the ship (or so it appeared). Flaming fuel form the aircraft not only started the topside area afire, it went down the ventilators and started boiler room fires that the Japanese never got under control. The pilot's name was Richard Fleming.

EDIT: Corrected name of pilot per wdolson's post below.





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by BBfanboy -- 11/12/2015 7:49:01 AM >


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RE: 2 magazine explosions in one combat - quite rare an... - 11/12/2015 5:14:20 AM   
wdolson

 

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If I remember right, the crashed plane was a Vindicator. The pilot was Richard Fleming:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_E._Fleming

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RE: 2 magazine explosions in one combat - quite rare an... - 11/12/2015 6:46:01 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

If I remember right, the crashed plane was a Vindicator. The pilot was Richard Fleming:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_E._Fleming

I stand corrected! Thanks for pointing out my misconception.

Although the Wikipedia article states that Fleming's aircraft crashed into the sea, I have seen at least one Japanese account stating an aircraft did crash into it and spread burning fuel in the aft area, so the issue is indeed unresolved.
As a bonus to the article reference, there is this picture that I referred to above, showing torpedoes hanging out of both port side torpedo tube openings. I suspect the torpedo explosion referred to in the Wikipedia article would be the reloads, rather than those in the tubes.






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by BBfanboy -- 11/12/2015 7:59:26 AM >


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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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