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Very Disappointed - 11/7/2015 3:56:11 PM   
DrRevKev1967

 

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I used to play World in Flames 30 years ago when the designers' aim was to have a game that was
"realistic but playable." Yes, WiF was a good deal more complex than, say, Third Reich, but the game lived
up to its goals. My buddies and I would set the game up after final formation on Friday, order Dominos,
and play until late Sunday. It was a hoot!

But then the add-ons started coming. Days of Decision (which, admittedly, was fun). This in Flames. That
in Flames. More rulebooks. LONGER rulebooks. I gave up.

For years I waited with anticipation for the PC version. Wow was I disappointed! First, MORE, LONGER rulebooks.
Hundreds of pages! I mean, honestly, who wants to read hundreds of pages to play a computer game, much less
to understand why that unit won't move when I click it!

The "tutorials" are a joke, written in a code that not even the Rosetta Stone would help you decipher.

The interface is clunky.

There's no way to zoom out and get a bird's eye view of how your strategy is unfolding. Oh, you can zoom out,
but then you need a microscope to see your units, which kind of defeats the purpose of zooming out.

Gameplay is mystifying. I'm in what phase of what impulse? Oh yeah, see Rulebook 2, Page 261, paragraph 7,
sub-paragraph 3, line 45...

Worse, the maps aren't all there. Still. And you can't PBEM.

Ugh. I could go on, but I won't. Worst. Money. Spent. On. PC. Game. Ever.
Post #: 1
RE: Very Disappointed - 11/7/2015 4:07:15 PM   
zakblood


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maybe reading the forum beforehand may have helped, as there's plenty of posts about the game and the state of it tbh, i'm sorry to say

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3871853

just one of many, plenty still play it mind you and enjoy it

< Message edited by zakblood -- 11/7/2015 5:10:00 PM >

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Post #: 2
RE: Very Disappointed - 11/7/2015 5:32:25 PM   
Aurelian

 

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I felt the same way with AH's Squad Leader. I gave up after buying Cross of Iron.

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RE: Very Disappointed - 11/7/2015 6:18:35 PM   
Greyshaft


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kandtcarroll
There's no way to zoom out and get a bird's eye view of how your strategy is unfolding. Oh, you can zoom out,
but then you need a microscope to see your units, which kind of defeats the purpose of zooming out.


I hate to break it to you, but zooming out *always* means that individual items get smaller. It happens on every computer game and it even happens on applications like MS Word and photographs and ... well... on everything.

Or did you expect your computer screen to suddenly get bigger ?


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RE: Very Disappointed - 11/7/2015 6:19:56 PM   
SeaMonkey

 

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I feel your pain Kc. I just don't understand why you would want to make an exact replication of an old board game using advanced technology that could allow you to make it much less complicated, more playable and more fun. Absolutely defies logic!

If you want to dial the complication knob back a little, I would suggest "Assault on Democracy" the Strategic Command version, a light WiF using the CPU features that take advantage of your dwindling gaming time. Nothing I can do about our overly complicated society's demand on your time. The lawyers(politicians-judges) make the laws which require the insurance companies to demand your compliance of the new regulations or you can't afford the premiums and are liable for lawsuits perpetrated by(remember how this sentence started)catalyzed by individuals(us) with the "get rich quick(get mine)" mentality.

Ever wonder what happened to your freedom?

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RE: Very Disappointed - 11/7/2015 6:54:44 PM   
warspite1


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First off let me just say as someone who has bought a dud of a PC game more than once over the years (who hasn’t?) I feel your pain that the computer version is far from the finished article. Of that there can be no disagreement (and Matrix management are fully aware) and we hope and pray that the game eventually is finished - but right now that is NOT the case.

However, based purely on what you have written, I think there are two separate issues here:

1. The problems with MWIF (Bugs, incomplete scenarios, no fully functioning PBEM, optionals missing etc)
2. What people expect from the game – assuming it was finished.

From your post I suspect that while point one is a frustration, the second point is more the 'problem'.

quote:

Gameplay is mystifying.

Firstly you are a WIF player of old – albeit it sounds like many years ago – so I am a little surprised that gameplay is mystifying. I last played WIF 5 so there has been plenty for me to learn but the fundamental concepts are the same. That said, the game does have a lot of concepts that are unique when compared to other board war games and so from that point of view, mystifying is perhaps appropriate. Given that MWIF is supposed to be a faithful reproduction of this incredible board game, the gameplay will be no more and no less mystifying than in the board version.

quote:

There's no way to zoom out

I do not know what this means, there are 8 zoom levels + minimaps as well (far more than many (all?) other games so not really sure what you refer to here).

quote:

The interface is clunky.

Fair enough – that is personal choice and I agree there could have been more elegant solutions for a few things – but nothing I think that really hurts the game.

quote:

The "tutorials" are a joke

Again, this is really surprising. I have never come across a game with so much by way of (eight? lengthy) tutorials.


But the thing that makes me believe your ‘issue’ is with the game itself is the following:

quote:

But then the add-ons started coming. Days of Decision (which, admittedly, was fun). This in Flames. That in Flames. More rulebooks. LONGER rulebooks. I gave up.

And

quote:

First, MORE, LONGER rulebooks. Hundreds of pages! I mean, honestly, who wants to read hundreds of pages to play a computer game, much less to understand why that unit won't move when I click it!

Are you sure you are not just out of love with the way the game developed and how complicated it became? The first comment above suggests that, but then the second does not really make sense in the context of what MWIF is trying to be.

If the boardgame took 100+ pages for the rules to be made clear, and this is a faithful reproduction of the board game, how can you not have the same number of rules for the computer version? Which rules would you expect MWIF to drop (there are a few differences where necessary but these are kept to a minimum) and still be WIF? Why won’t units move when you click them? Well it’s in the rule book! One of the really contentious issues with MWIF was the hardback manuals. But it was Matrix appreciation that this is a reproduction of the board game that made them believe (quite rightly I think) that the manuals were a good thing (constant cross referencing required). This is NOT a game you can just play without reading the rules - its as simple as that. This means that this game will not be for everybody - but then no game is!

Having MWIF means you don't need a table the size of Birmingham to play it and a lot of the number crunching is done for you. But having MWIF does not mean you do not need to understand the rules.

From what you have said in your post it sounds to me like MWIF is not the game for you (which is perfectly fair enough) and that you were hoping computer WIF would not really be WIF at all (or at least a heavily watered down version). But if so, then firstly, that was never the basis on which Matrix and ADG did the deal (from day one they stated that this would be a faithful reproduction), and secondly, that has nothing to do with the coding problems – those coding/bug problems simply masked what I believe is your main issue.

By the way, as of right now, Soltaire is playable (still some bugs though) and PBEM is possible. Netplay is being worked on as a priority and has made great strides in the last 6 months - but is by no means complete. I appreciate all the above only matters if you want to play the game - and as said above - that means having to read the manual because its that sort of game.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/7/2015 10:30:37 PM >


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Post #: 6
RE: Very Disappointed - 11/7/2015 8:36:54 PM   
Rosseau

 

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Could be the OP's expectations more than anything. I never played WiF, but it tends to lead you through the phases. I was able to finish a '43-'45 game, and it helped distract me from a good deal of back pain

Honestly, I concentrated mostly on the Axis ground war and blew off a lot of the naval and air phases, as I found them cumbersome playing against myself.

I will play again when there is an AI in a year or two. But it was worth the money on a time-to-dollar basis.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 7
RE: Very Disappointed - 11/7/2015 8:41:26 PM   
Rising-Sun


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That remind me of playing War in the Pacific Admiral Edition, use to play Gary's Pacific War back in the 90's and now it even more complex than ever. I do enjoy going over the manual and trying to learn the game though.

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RE: Very Disappointed - 11/7/2015 9:17:12 PM   
AbwehrX


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quote:

But then the add-ons started coming. Days of Decision (which, admittedly, was fun). This in Flames. That
in Flames. More rulebooks. LONGER rulebooks. I gave up.


Hmmmm must be a greenhorn. Nothing in the universe is greater than WiF-FE with majority addons & all options (except Opt 57). Nothing more exhilarating than sinking the entire Allied invasion fleet with Italian naval bombers ln J/A '43. Nothing.

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RE: Very Disappointed - 11/7/2015 9:29:57 PM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AbwehrX
Nothing more exhilarating than sinking the entire Allied invasion fleet with Italian naval bombers ln J/A '43. Nothing.

Declaring war on the Allies a couple of turns early with Japan and invading on the CW fleet. Sinking or capturing all of their carriers. Does that come close?

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Post #: 10
RE: Very Disappointed - 11/7/2015 9:45:24 PM   
AbwehrX


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Not quite but its daaaaaamn close!! (Sinking the transport with Eisenhowers HQ on it was better).

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RE: Very Disappointed - 11/7/2015 9:47:33 PM   
Jagdtiger14


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Beating up on your little sister again Orm? What sort of CW player brings their fleet in range of the Japs?

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Post #: 12
RE: Very Disappointed - 11/7/2015 10:05:40 PM   
Orm


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Sorry. No little sister.

Just a player in the process of rebasing the navy from Europe to the Pacific and based it in Aden without a land unit helping with the defence. And very unlucky with the die rolls.

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Post #: 13
RE: Very Disappointed - 11/8/2015 7:09:58 PM   
cohimbra


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

By the way, as of right now, Soltaire is playable

Hi warspite1, what do you mean with "soltaire"?

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RE: Very Disappointed - 11/8/2015 7:17:40 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cohimbra


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

By the way, as of right now, Soltaire is playable

Hi warspite1, what do you mean with "soltaire"?
warspite1

You can play on your own - all seven major powers. Because of the richness of the game, its actually quite a lot more fun than it perhaps appears. Quite a few AAR have been done in solitaire mode.


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RE: Very Disappointed - 11/8/2015 7:22:07 PM   
cohimbra


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
You can play on your own - all seven major powers. Because of the richness of the game, its actually quite a lot more fun than it perhaps appears. Quite a few AAR have been done in solitaire mode.


Ok, thanks. Maybe I must go in WiF forum to learn more about it.

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RE: Very Disappointed - 11/8/2015 7:27:12 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cohimbra


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
You can play on your own - all seven major powers. Because of the richness of the game, its actually quite a lot more fun than it perhaps appears. Quite a few AAR have been done in solitaire mode.


Ok, thanks. Maybe I must go in WiF forum to learn more about it.
warspite1

Any questions - just ask. Absolutely brilliant game, but the computer version is a work in progress. Have a look at the AAR's - there are some Solitaire games and some PBEM games too.


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RE: Very Disappointed - 11/8/2015 10:14:06 PM   
wings7


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Thanks Robert (warspite1) for your explanation of World in Flames, greatly appreciated!

Patrick

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RE: Very Disappointed - 11/9/2015 2:08:33 AM   
Jagdtiger14


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As for AAR games, I highly recommend:

AllenK vs Mayhemizer III: oil be back



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RE: Very Disappointed - 11/9/2015 2:22:19 AM   
aaatoysandmore

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AbwehrX

quote:

But then the add-ons started coming. Days of Decision (which, admittedly, was fun). This in Flames. That
in Flames. More rulebooks. LONGER rulebooks. I gave up.


Hmmmm must be a greenhorn. Nothing in the universe is greater than WiF-FE with majority addons & all options (except Opt 57). Nothing more exhilarating than sinking the entire Allied invasion fleet with Italian naval bombers ln J/A '43. Nothing.


Yes, there is. Taking Berlin an liberating Moscow with Brazil in HOI (hearts of iron) I'll never forget that game. My brazilians were the saviors of the world.

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Post #: 20
RE: Very Disappointed - 11/9/2015 3:39:09 AM   
Jagdtiger14


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If that is possible for Brazil to do in HOI, then I'm glad I never bought that game.

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RE: Very Disappointed - 11/9/2015 6:03:39 AM   
aaatoysandmore

 

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Well, that was HOI I, I don't know if they could do it in HOI II or III cause I never bought them and played them. Well, I take that back I bought them for like $3.99 but I never played them.

To me the HOI's have always been "Making History" in pauseable real time. They both have wonky outcomes compared to what is written in books and video's of the history of WWII.

< Message edited by aaatoysandmore -- 11/9/2015 7:06:11 AM >

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RE: Very Disappointed - 11/9/2015 9:14:53 AM   
demyansk


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I have changed my gaming experience over the last 35 years. I used to like the long drawn out games but now into fps and cool graphics. I am not a fan of rts but playing Euro escalation. I like decisive blue and I guess change is good to. I have all the grand start games as well.

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RE: Very Disappointed - 11/10/2015 3:11:35 AM   
rhondabrwn


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Is there a "Brazil in Flames" expansion for World in Flames?

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RE: Very Disappointed - 11/10/2015 5:00:55 AM   
aaatoysandmore

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: demjansk

I have changed my gaming experience over the last 35 years. I used to like the long drawn out games but now into fps and cool graphics. I am not a fan of rts but playing Euro escalation. I like decisive blue and I guess change is good to. I have all the grand start games as well.



If you like FPS now and wargames check out Mount & Blade Warband. It's the most awesome FPS wargame I ever played and I don't even like FPS. This one is so different an unique as you can tell your men what to do and form battle lines. At first I was just charging and letting my ai men do most of the work but later I started to enjoy chopping heads off and making those perfectly timed swings of my 2hd axe off horseback.

Wonderful experience. Especially for someone who hates RTS and FPS mostly. There's a few of each I'll stomach but very rarely. If it's not turn based it's just not strategy to me mostly. To me strategy is thinking and taking a long time to think if I want like the old AH boardgames and early chess. Then of course they came along with speed chess and ruined just about all turn based gaming.

Thank the gods for Matrixgames and Slitherine. They just don't come out with the good ones fast enough. (Btw how's that Panzer Command (western front) game coming?

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RE: Very Disappointed - 11/10/2015 5:36:29 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn

Is there a "Brazil in Flames" expansion for World in Flames?
warspite1

Rhonda there is no 'Brazil in Flames' as such. But all of South and Central America is included in the game and all (most?) South and Central American countries have units - quite a few in the case of the 'ABC' powers - Argentina, Brazil and Chile plus Mexico.





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/10/2015 7:39:34 AM >


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RE: Very Disappointed - 11/10/2015 11:52:06 AM   
aaatoysandmore

 

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Those look like just the starting units in the HOI game but then I could add a whole lot more to that as the game progressed. I had a navy and transports and a few planes. Marched over to the boot of Italy and as the Americans were going up it so did my Brazilians and on into Berlin.

After Berlin they marched on into Moscow and liberated it as the game didn't end just because I took Berlin. It was mostly over anyways once we took Italy out.

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RE: Very Disappointed - 11/10/2015 5:23:47 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

Those look like just the starting units in the HOI game but then I could add a whole lot more to that as the game progressed. I had a navy and transports and a few planes. Marched over to the boot of Italy and as the Americans were going up it so did my Brazilians and on into Berlin.

After Berlin they marched on into Moscow and liberated it as the game didn't end just because I took Berlin. It was mostly over anyways once we took Italy out.
warspite1

That's the Argentine starting forces.

Anyway. The Brazilians, like the Argentinians, and like almost all powers and for obvious reasons, do not start with all their units.

Here is the Brazilian force pool - with planes, convoy points, its army and navy.



Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/10/2015 6:39:33 PM >


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RE: Very Disappointed - 11/10/2015 5:51:53 PM   
freeboy

 

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My dissppointmetn was everything to do with the release of a game and then, "well multi player is not up yet" its a complex and deep game and honestly the guys decided to make the computer game complex instead of capturing the essence of the initial game and making some extranious parts abstractions... I understand but it does lend the game to much more difficult learning curve, I played a few hours, then decided to wait for MP, then just gave up and moved on... wasted 100 or so.. ouch

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RE: Very Disappointed - 11/10/2015 6:05:41 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

My dissppointmetn was everything to do with the release of a game and then, "well multi player is not up yet" its a complex and deep game and honestly the guys decided to make the computer game complex instead of capturing the essence of the initial game and making some extranious parts abstractions... I understand but it does lend the game to much more difficult learning curve, I played a few hours, then decided to wait for MP, then just gave up and moved on... wasted 100 or so.. ouch
warspite1

'They' did not decide to make the game 'complex'. The game is complex. Matrix/Steve/ADG agreed that the game would be made as per the board game - that was the deal; a faithful reproduction of the board game and thus as close as they could make it to the board game experience.

No idea of the numbers of course, but no doubt for everyone that wanted WIF Lite, there were those that wanted a board game re-make; I am certainly in that latter camp and would have been less than happy with some watered down variant.

Sorry you wasted all that cash, but as I said, you are not the first and sure won't be the last to misjudge a computer game!


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/10/2015 8:36:51 PM >


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