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air war under 1.08.05 - 11/1/2015 3:20:25 PM   
loki100


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I realise there is little chance to get the recent rule changes reversed but I really do not like the air war under the new patch.

WiTE has always had the problem that the air aspect is a lot of micro-management for relatively little gain, but if you put in the effort you could generate a reward. With the patch, the Soviet airforce is effectively useless apart from in the direct ground support role. So we have a system that still demands a lot of time and effort but now has no meaningful payback. Add on the advantages handed to the defensive side in the patch and you've just stripped out an important bit of balance.

I also really do not like the new rules for extra losses if you retreat into/through zones of control.

In combination all this seems to do is the lengthen the period of stalemate in the mid-game.

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RE: air war under 1.08.05 - 11/1/2015 3:36:57 PM   
swkuh

 

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@loki100: great signature picture!

playing Axis vs. AI get best results from auto ground support w/well escorted attacks

rarely reduce positions by bombardments...

port reductions very effective, but only a few opportunities...



< Message edited by rrbill -- 11/1/2015 4:57:37 PM >

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RE: air war under 1.08.05 - 11/1/2015 4:43:58 PM   
Bozo_the_Clown


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You want to know what I really hate about this patch? In .04 you could disband HQs and the units were then automatically under Stavka. I guess that was just too much fun for the Russians to be able to easily customize their army.

I haven't really tried out the new air system. Could you specify what exactly the problem is? I guess you have to make a choice now between ground bombing an airbase bombing. The rest is ground support and fighter intercepts determined by the AI. Somewhat dull, yes, but maybe more realistic?

< Message edited by Bozo_the_Clown -- 11/1/2015 7:28:59 PM >

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RE: air war under 1.08.05 - 11/1/2015 4:55:45 PM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown

You know what I really hate about this patch. In .04 you could disband HQs and the units were then automatically under Stavka. I guess that was just too much fun for the Russians to be able to easily customize their army.

I haven't really tried out the new air system. Could you specify what exactly the problem is? I guess you have to make a choice now between ground bombing an airbase bombing. The rest is ground support and fighter intercepts determined by the AI. Somewhat dull, yes, but maybe more realistic?


yeah, that as well - it made sorting out the chaos of 1941 just that bit easier, for no real long term gain.

I think there are 3 issues:

a) you can't prosecute an air superiority campaign. I know air base bombing is a bit unrealistic but it can be seen as a proxy for going into your opponent's airspace and shouting *come and have a go if you think you are hard enough*. In effect its a tool to trigger air combat and that is effectively lost. In 2 turns under the patch I have managed to bomb a total of 2 airbases and may have scratched the paintwork on a Romanian bomber;
b) you can't do pre-attack bombing - something (not announced) is limiting the number of aircraft you pull in. Before it was relatively easy to deliver 2 large ground attacks and then lots of ground support - standard Soviet tactic to reduce a strong point. Now you get 1 ground attack, far less planes seem to be available and ... for reasons I don't understand ... yet get almost no fighter cover. So quite often you can't risk it.
c) if all the air war is the AI chosen ground support mission then please just simplify it. Why waste time on subtle variations of the Yak or the Bf-109?

It also seems as if the truck demand for level bombers has gone up.

So I think a set of well intentioned changes have created the situation where the airwar is a waste of time, admin pts, probably trucks. May as well be just some sort of arbitrary combat modifier - go back to the old SPI WiTE system, you have 12 air points, if you outguess your opponent you get a combat bonus in a particular map zone.
quote:

ORIGINAL: rrbill

...

port reductions very effective, but only a few opportunities...




yes indeed, the only defense the Soviets had against a sustained port bombing campaign (since Soviet AA has been rendered useless) was to, in turn, go after the Axis airbases which were being used. Which you can no longer do. So its a free gift of a tactic now for the Axis side as there is no meaningful response, they take minimal (if any) AA losses and you can't 'counter-attack'.

< Message edited by loki100 -- 11/1/2015 5:59:32 PM >


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RE: air war under 1.08.05 - 11/1/2015 5:03:14 PM   
VigaBrand

 

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I support loki.
The rule that you must decide wheter airfield bombing or a ground attack is very hard. Maybe a 5% regulation (instead of the old 33%) will be better and allowed the soviet a fight for air superiority.


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RE: air war under 1.08.05 - 11/1/2015 5:27:52 PM   
chaos45

 

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I think I commented how stupid this change was already.

House rules limiting the amount of times you could bomb each airbase were fair enough.

All this does is make the Soviet player not attack the German air force at all- which is completely not historical.

By 1943 the Soviet air force was directly attacking the German luftwaffe. In fact they started to test the strategy by establishing air superiority over the Kuban defeating a significant Luftwaffe effort there by directly assaulting the luftwaffe airbases and fighter strength.

Just another bonus for the Germans really, this patch was very heavily balanced for the Germans aside from a slight supply nerf in 1941...from 1942 on this patch is purely German bonuses.

< Message edited by chaos45 -- 11/1/2015 6:30:28 PM >

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RE: air war under 1.08.05 - 11/1/2015 6:40:22 PM   
gingerbread


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I think you forgot the slight Soviet national morale boost to 45 from 40 during '42. In order to retain the Axis initiative during the '42 season with that change in place, the Soviets had to give some. Morvael has already hinted how to respond: use the rail modifier to keep the Panzers short on fuel.

I realize that Soviet players want to get on the inside of the curve and start their counter offensive from Vyazma or even Smolensk, but that had to go.

As to the air game, I think the current rules are the lesser of evils given the game engine. I suspect that there is a limit in that a fighter can only shoot down 1 enemy air plane so numbers weigh too much. Not worth the risk to experiment with that in this iteration of WitE though.

< Message edited by gingerbread -- 11/1/2015 7:46:26 PM >

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RE: air war under 1.08.05 - 11/1/2015 6:45:46 PM   
Icier


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completely off context, but Bozo loved your signature picture...is that guy available for hire.[]

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RE: air war under 1.08.05 - 11/1/2015 6:51:15 PM   
Bozo_the_Clown


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quote:

completely off context, but Bozo loved your signature picture...is that guy available for hire.[]


Only birthdays and bar mitzvahs.

< Message edited by Bozo_the_Clown -- 11/1/2015 8:09:57 PM >

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RE: air war under 1.08.05 - 11/1/2015 7:15:57 PM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

I think you forgot the slight Soviet national morale boost to 45 from 40 during '42. In order to retain the Axis initiative during the '42 season with that change in place, the Soviets had to give some. Morvael has already hinted how to respond: use the rail modifier to keep the Panzers short on fuel.

I realize that Soviet players want to get on the inside of the curve and start their counter offensive from Vyazma or even Smolensk, but that had to go.

As to the air game, I think the current rules are the lesser of evils given the game engine. I suspect that there is a limit in that a fighter can only shoot down 1 enemy air plane so numbers weigh too much. Not worth the risk to experiment with that in this iteration of WitE though.


agree that its important that 1942 allows a serious german offensive, but the change is actually pretty neutral. Your average rifle division stays at 45 (good), your new builds assuming that your brigades had decent exp now start at 2 cv (45) not 3 cv (50) - and even if you don't build a lot of brigades you still have a lot to convert) and your cav corps are at 45. All in all a sensible package, but in truth its a pretty neutral package as well.

I don't want to start the Soviet offensive at Smolensk - unless I've earnt the right to do so - and I do want the entire war to feel roughly right.

problem with the new air rules is (a) its ahistoric and (b) it retains all the micro-management but now with no reward. Virtually everyone agreed house rules that had the potential abuse in the game engine under control - but in turn it gave a reward to both sides for trying to manage their airforce. To be honest, with the new constraints, I'd say scrap the whole thing - lets go back to 1970s style board game generic air points and feed them into a limited combat multiplier.

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RE: air war under 1.08.05 - 11/1/2015 7:28:56 PM   
chaos45

 

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it means the soviets need twice as many aircraft in 1942 to get the same effect as in .04 in the game. Its a Soviet nerf plain and simple to make the German air force stay stronger and allow germans unlimited recon.

German recon at the army level was scraped I think late 1941 due to, to many recon planes being lost and replacements not being available.

So lets once more remove a historical constraint on the Germans because Soviets players will attack German recon elements to limit the gods eye view of the front.

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RE: air war under 1.08.05 - 11/1/2015 7:49:23 PM   
gingerbread


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Cav has no guards limit, so I'm working with the assumption that Cav units have NM 55 as do the Guard RD & RC which were 50 before this patch. The NM 55 for 10%, later 17%, of the infantry is rather significant. NM number for '42.

The 2 x 50 NM RB --> mor 50 RD was called an exploit and had to go.

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RE: air war under 1.08.05 - 11/1/2015 8:34:37 PM   
chaos45

 

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exploit or not the RB was a fact for game play.

Overall CAV are nerfed because they lost 5 points of NM no matter how you skin it. They are still useful and maybe with tank corps having 45NM now it might help...but lets face it ToE on 42 tank corps is junk anyway...so you got more bang for your buck with +5 moral on the cav than tank corps.

The NM boost in conjunction with the nerfs to the RB and CAV are a net wash for the soviets. Not to mention in areas with decent commanders the Soviet units werent losing much morale anyway since they should have 45-50 morale by end of winter as is.

Overall this patch is Pro-German IMO. THankfully Im past 1942 and was able to damage the luftwaffe before this patch made attacking the luftwaffe a wasted effort.


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RE: air war under 1.08.05 - 11/1/2015 9:28:44 PM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

...

The 2 x 50 NM RB --> mor 50 RD was called an exploit and had to go.


I agree, no issue about it.

But it only became worth the micro-management in response to the imposed 40 NM for the bulk of rifle divisions. So it balances out, you don't get freshly formed super-divisions and you don't have the bulk of your army rendered useless by an arbitrary status change.

My issue in this thread is not to rehearse the wider issues of balance etc but to point out that the entire air game has been made pointless (but still vastly time intensive).

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RE: air war under 1.08.05 - 11/1/2015 9:56:35 PM   
chaos45

 

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Air war in the post .05 for Soviets will be- launch all ground strikes and hope the Luftwaffe doenst blow you from the skies. Launch ground attacks and hope to get support....

Other than that stack your airbases full of fighters and bombers and hope for the best.

As in 1942/1943 the Soviets need the ground strikes to attack the Germans with any type of real chances for success on a decent scale. So this change effectively removes conducting a real air campaign from the game for the soviets and give the Germans the ability to keep up air strikes and an airforce Im sure fast past historical, just like their ground army.

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RE: air war under 1.08.05 - 11/1/2015 10:50:46 PM   
Peltonx


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The German supply nerfs trumps all this window dressing by allot.

The FACTS are we don't know how it will effect the game by September 43.

We can say pro Russia or pro Germany all we want

Were is the data supporting your opinion?

We have zip and will have zip until we have some .07 games played from turn 1 to turn 120, then we
will know for sure based on data.

The air system is addressed with WitE 2.0

Sorry but morveal can not make cookies out of mud and grass.

2by3 is working on 2.0 so don't expect anything new for 1.0 for a while.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$



< Message edited by Pelton -- 11/2/2015 12:57:10 AM >


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RE: air war under 1.08.05 - 11/1/2015 11:34:01 PM   
Bozo_the_Clown


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All the secrets of the new patch (including extensive data) will be revealed in my upcoming book "War in the East for Dummies". I am also working on a Russian edition.






Attachment (1)

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RE: air war under 1.08.05 - 11/1/2015 11:57:52 PM   
Peltonx


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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQz-rQmvkn4

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RE: air war under 1.08.05 - 11/2/2015 4:36:38 AM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

The German supply nerfs trumps all this window dressing by allot.

The FACTS are we don't know how it will effect the game by September 43.
....



Pelton

I'm sorry but this is missing the point. I am, quite deliberately, not talking about balance, I am making the point that the patch makes all the attention you have to pay to the air war irrelevant and with no ability to prosecute a localised air campaign - in comparison to 08.04 due to one single design decision.

... and yes, I know full well that WiTE2 will use the WiTW air system and that is fine

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RE: air war under 1.08.05 - 11/2/2015 10:24:35 AM   
M60A3TTS


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As those who follow my AAR with smokindave34 can tell, I've already made adjustments to account for the increased marginalization of airpower in the game under 1.08.

I no longer build air defense units because they aren't shooting down enough planes to justify their existence.

I remove level bombers from the bases as soon as tactical bombers are available because they use too many trucks. By 1944 I've eliminated the Long Range Air Command.

By early 1944 I've eliminated about 1/3 of my airbases from the previous year to save more trucks. A couple Air Army HQ have also gone away to recoup more trucks.

So in the final phase of the game I am running with about 9,700 or so planes on 42 bases. That is ok, I've never thought running 15k-20k aircraft was realistic or desirable anyways.




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RE: air war under 1.08.05 - 11/2/2015 11:22:11 AM   
mktours

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown

You want to know what I really hate about this patch? In .04 you could disband HQs and the units were then automatically under Stavka. I guess that was just too much fun for the Russians to be able to easily customize their army.



So this feature has disappeared in 1.08.05? I haven't read the big changing log yet.
That is a big pity.

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RE: air war under 1.08.05 - 11/2/2015 11:44:11 AM   
morvael


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What solution would be good? Limit one type of mission per hex?

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RE: air war under 1.08.05 - 11/2/2015 11:58:31 AM   
Bozo_the_Clown


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quote:

So this feature has disappeared in 1.08.05? I haven't read the big changing log yet.
That is a big pity.



Yeah, real bummer. I enjoyed that feature. Makes it so much harder now to stand and fight.

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RE: air war under 1.08.05 - 11/2/2015 12:24:19 PM   
mktours

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown

quote:

So this feature has disappeared in 1.08.05? I haven't read the big changing log yet.
That is a big pity.



Yeah, real bummer. I enjoyed that feature. Makes it so much harder now to stand and fight.

I don't understand why get rid of this feature. It helps both sides.
I really don't like these big changes, as we players just get use to something and all of sudden we have to get rid of our habit and re-learn. That is anti-productive and not fun.

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RE: air war under 1.08.05 - 11/2/2015 1:13:47 PM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

What solution would be good? Limit one type of mission per hex?


Go back to a modification of the old rule, that had air strikes on bases if the air group had used <33% of its miles.

reset that at 20% (if it really must be changed)?

Pelton raising WiTW is one huge red herring, in that I can frame an air directive so that air units will do the equivalent of ground and air base bombing in a set area 7 days per week. The advantage over WiTE is I can't micromanage by swapping targets exactly as I fancy, but its simply not true to say that WiTW stops an air superiority style tactical air campaign - it encourages it. Send in your fighters to do air superiority where you think the enemy is deployed (and you can do it either in your air phase or theirs ... the latter being particularly sneaky)

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RE: air war under 1.08.05 - 11/2/2015 1:19:17 PM   
Dreamslayer

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

What solution would be good? Limit one type of mission per hex?

What about limit number of air strikes per air HQ and link it with skills of air leaders.

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RE: air war under 1.08.05 - 11/2/2015 1:50:58 PM   
LiquidSky


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WitE2 will make the air war a game. And if one side plays poorly it will lose...like any game.

What will happen is pilot quality will become the most important factor. And even if the German Luftwaffe is big and strong, they wont be able to sustain losses due to pilot replacement. So even if 20 I'16s get shot down for every BF109, that's still one less German pilot.

Training in game will take up machines and fuel. The Russians will probably afford both. The Germans won't. So the Russian airforce will get better over time. The German one will get worse. And players can accelerate/decelerate the process.

You cant shoot down the enemy planes if he doesn't fly. You cant bomb his planes on the ground if he moves them. Or covers them with flak. As players learn what they can or cant do (and believe me, it will take a while), there will be many cases of one side or the other dominating the air.

Recon and bombing happens all in the same phase....so you cannot recon first then choose targets second. You have to guess. Or make assumptions based on the last turns activity.





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RE: air war under 1.08.05 - 11/2/2015 1:52:46 PM   
LiquidSky


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I should add: Playing WitE makes me ignore the air mostly. I know that I could probably do better if I delve into it more, but I really don't want to. It isn't interesting enough, or seem to do anything useful. So I just leave them on their bases and move them forward with the German front line.

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RE: air war under 1.08.05 - 11/2/2015 3:13:36 PM   
morvael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown

You want to know what I really hate about this patch? In .04 you could disband HQs and the units were then automatically under Stavka. I guess that was just too much fun for the Russians to be able to easily customize their army.


This was more like bug introduced with 1.08.00. The idea is to keep the units generally where they were (so moving from disbanded Corps to it's Army etc), making smallest possible adjustment when one unit is disbanded.

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RE: air war under 1.08.05 - 11/2/2015 3:14:32 PM   
morvael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky
I should add: Playing WitE makes me ignore the air mostly. I know that I could probably do better if I delve into it more, but I really don't want to. It isn't interesting enough, or seem to do anything useful. So I just leave them on their bases and move them forward with the German front line.


Do you ignore recon and transports?

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