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RE: WitE 2 - 1/23/2020 11:19:59 PM   
56ajax


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The game aims to be reasonably historical. Soviet morale (and experience?) is randomised on T1 to make it less predicatable but the Axis advantage on the opening turn is so massive no one notices.

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RE: WitE 2 - 1/24/2020 9:01:54 AM   
821Bobo


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I can not understand the never ending complains about perfect Axis T1. The game has 250+ turns, not just one.
Allowing Soviets to shuffle units would result in opposite situation with massing units in places that are obvious paths for Panzers. And that is much more unrealistic.
Allowing to move only few would not change anything except Soviet player's impression that now it is better than the default setting.

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Post #: 1832
RE: WitE 2 - 1/24/2020 5:11:00 PM   
uw06670


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because if T1 isn't 'realistic' its an obvious flaw

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RE: WitE 2 - 1/24/2020 9:45:56 PM   
821Bobo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: uw06670

because if T1 isn't 'realistic' its an obvious flaw

Yes, thats the point, enlist and see the war...

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Post #: 1834
RE: WitE 2 - 1/24/2020 10:51:16 PM   
uw06670


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T1 being flawed is 'the point'? I don't get you.

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RE: WitE 2 - 1/28/2020 11:37:29 AM   
JamesM

 

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So what are the chances that this game will be released this year?

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Post #: 1836
RE: WitE 2 - 1/28/2020 10:54:36 PM   
uw06670


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When Koalas fly?

Sorry, just some humor.

If its in Alpha now (so I've heard) I hope it doesn't release soon. 1 full war match takes a loooooong time to conduct. And without a lot of play time by Alpha/Beta people there are going to be issues that need patches.

< Message edited by uw06670 -- 1/28/2020 10:56:30 PM >


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RE: WitE 2 - 2/15/2020 4:18:03 PM   
cavalry

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DorianGray


quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

I also agree with this idea. It is quite tiresome to see some players post ways to get to certain points on the map on the first turn knowing where every Russian unit is. That is derogatory to the game.
In an ideal world it would be nice to have a set up turn where units are placed within say five hexes of their HQ which would be in an approximate historical position. You can of course have the historical setup if you like I for one would not choose that.


Actually, I am a bit surprised the locations are fixed and not a bit randomized.

I am thinking, at least for the Soviets, that there should be some core units that are fixed to make sure certain physical locations are garrisoned.

But then, as many as 50% of Soviets could have starting location randomized a bit, by as much as 1 or 2 hexes in any direction.

In the extreme, even if you took all Soviet counters and just physically dropped them on the map (next to the border), would it be any worse than current static deployment?

I highly doubt it would be and, at the least, it would stop some of the 1st turn gaminess on the part of Germany.



Agree 100% - do not want to see the Ruskies get killed on T1 or block the panzer routes but also do not want to see maths formulas boffins as generals

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Post #: 1838
RE: WitE 2 - 2/15/2020 4:21:56 PM   
Zemke


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I want the game badly. Perhaps increasing the number of testers would speed the process, I am willing to play either German or Russian against a human opponent, and I would still pay full price for the game.

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RE: WitE 2 - 2/16/2020 4:30:36 AM   
countrboy

 

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I started a PBEM game recently and my opponent didn't make 'the perfect first turn', which I appreciated. Sure he pocketed a heap of my Russian units, but it wasn't worked out to 20 decimal points. The first turn really needs some random element, otherwise really, why not just start the game on Turn 2, with the Germans already in perfect position?

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Post #: 1840
RE: WitE 2 - 2/16/2020 12:08:20 PM   
loki100


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I'd suggest because then some players will simply optimise T2?

Its been said earlier in this thread, and worth repeating, there is a greater random element to the at-start Soviet forces & the risk of reserve activation than there is in WITE1. If you try to put together a perfect T1 based on precise allocations of commitment per hex then you'll get caught out, quite simply you needs some redundancy in the pattern of your attacks.

So yes you know where they are (if you obsessively record that information) but the strengths will vary as will the risk of a reserve unit being committed.

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RE: WitE 2 - 2/16/2020 12:43:14 PM   
joelmar


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@countryboy: And as someone wrote elsewhere, the first turn is only the first of many, and in these many turns, many things can happen.

The Germans need to be swift in the beginning, it's vital, but however bad they get mauled, the Soviets have resilience, and that is their true power. You have to learn to have resilience too as a Soviet commander. Not saying that is your case, but those who resign after 5 turns as the Soviets because the Germans had a perfect opening will learn nothing.

Bottom line, you can loose the game in the first turn as the Germans, but you can't loose it as the Soviets unless you give up.

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Post #: 1842
RE: WitE 2 - 2/16/2020 6:27:32 PM   
Joel Billings


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quote:

ORIGINAL: uw06670

When Koalas fly?

Sorry, just some humor.

If its in Alpha now (so I've heard) I hope it doesn't release soon. 1 full war match takes a loooooong time to conduct. And without a lot of play time by Alpha/Beta people there are going to be issues that need patches.



Well, given climate change, I think at some point the Koalas that survive may just be the ones that figure out how to fly.

You make a good point, but also our alpha has been pretty stable for a long time, with the biggest work remaining being making the air war something easier for the players to play and/or providing a good AI Air Assist mechanism. That and completing our interface facelift. We've been holding off adding a lot of new testers because while this area was in flux, we'd just be confusing too many testers for the value we'd get from their testing. Thankfully we have a few very good testers that have been able to give us feedback on the recent work. I'm not saying everything else is done, but we're more advanced in some ways than you might think. We are now very close to having an AI Air Assist that allows for minimal interaction with the air game for those that want to stay focused on the ground game. Although not all features have been added, we're also far along in our use of AOGs (air operational groups) that consist of multiple air units, which makes it easier to move and command large numbers of air units than it was in WitW. The Soviets can have a 15k a/c air force by the end of the war, and although focused on ground support, it would be a bear to manage it without the AOGs. I can see us getting to a point within the next 1-3 months where we can add a large group of new testers and begin beta (or near beta) testing.

We have had 2 player games of Stalingrad to Berlin go from Nov 1942 into mid 1944, but I don't think we've had a 2 player game of the long campaign go past summer of 42. However, I don't think WitP ever had a 2 player test game that got more than a year in when it was released. Same probably goes for WitE. We had to rely on our AI tests to balance, and then only after release were we able to make adjustments based on lots of player feedback. That's the reality of these big games that take months of real time to play. Does this mean the games are perfectly balanced when they are released? No. Does this mean that the games aren't a heck of a lot of fun to play from the day of release. Also no. With these games, it's the journey, not the destination, and we think players of WitE2 will enjoy the journey.

BTW, I've mentioned this several times before, but this is not only true for computer games. The original SPI War in the East board game that was shipped around 1974 had a major problem that was corrected by a rule change that was published in their Moves magazine sometime after release. By that time I had already spent an entire summer playing the game solo. More importantly, I had also spent 4 months playing twice a week with 5 players playing WitE in a team game, with our Soviet team stopping the Germans cold in 1942. It was only after this game that I read about the rule change and realized our game was not a fair fight. Wish I had known about the rule change earlier, but I still enjoyed the journey.

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Post #: 1843
RE: WitE 2 - 2/16/2020 8:16:56 PM   
enricoix

 

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That is very encouraging. Thanks a lot for the detailed info.
And I believe that the core players of a game like WiTE and sequels are interested in a journey and not the destination indeed.

Sorry but I will use my wildcard of guess which corresponds to a Q3 2020 release perhaps?
(I know you can't answer to that, I am just thinking/wishing out loud)

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Post #: 1844
RE: WitE 2 - 2/16/2020 10:15:04 PM   
joelmar


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There's so much going on in this game that each turn is a journey in itself, always bringing some new understanding and depth, which is where most of the fun lies for me.

Looking forward to see WitE2 in action! Thank you for this update.

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Post #: 1845
RE: WitE 2 - 2/17/2020 8:27:41 AM   
morvael


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This year is 10th anniversary of WitE (according to Steam: 7 Dec, 2010). I would love the sequel to arrive around that date

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Post #: 1846
RE: WitE 2 - 2/17/2020 5:44:26 PM   
Denniss

 

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Noooooooooooo - you just killed the surprise ............

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Post #: 1847
RE: WitE 2 - 2/18/2020 2:08:16 PM   
Zemke


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Thanks Bill for the information.

It's really been ten years, wow! I thought I was not that old, but I guess I am.

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Post #: 1848
RE: WitE 2 - 2/19/2020 11:12:45 AM   
Ian R

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo

I can not understand the never ending complains about perfect Axis T1. The game has 250+ turns, not just one.
Allowing Soviets to shuffle units would result in opposite situation with massing units in places that are obvious paths for Panzers. And that is much more unrealistic.
Allowing to move only few would not change anything except Soviet player's impression that now it is better than the default setting.


Are the Axis limited to their historical deployment, or do they get to change things around?

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Ian R

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Post #: 1849
RE: WitE 2 - 2/19/2020 11:29:08 AM   
Ian R

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings


The original SPI War in the East board game that was shipped around 1974 had a major problem that was corrected by a rule change that was published in their Moves magazine sometime after release. By that time I had already spent an entire summer playing the game solo....


This one?

quote:

[15.8] (Omission) ARMS CENTER DISRUPTION When playing the Historical
Campaign Game, all on map Russian Arms Centers cease all production as
soon as a cumulative total of 100 Russian ground combat units of any
type have been eliminated. Arms Centers in Siberia are not affected.



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Ian R

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Post #: 1850
RE: WitE 2 - 2/19/2020 11:09:42 PM   
Joel Billings


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R


This one?

quote:

[15.8] (Omission) ARMS CENTER DISRUPTION When playing the Historical
Campaign Game, all on map Russian Arms Centers cease all production as
soon as a cumulative total of 100 Russian ground combat units of any
type have been eliminated. Arms Centers in Siberia are not affected.





Yes, that's it. Funny to see it listed as an Omission. It's as if they just forgot to print the rule. Wow, if that's true, someone must have felt bad about forgetting to get that in the manual. It only totally changed the game balance. I'm not throwing stones though. I loved that game and would happily pay for lunch with anyone that had a hand in making that game.

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RE: WitE 2 - 2/20/2020 12:26:21 AM   
Gilmer


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I'd love to be in the beta. Will it be open to people like me?

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RE: WitE 2 - 2/20/2020 4:27:19 AM   
821Bobo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Are the Axis limited to their historical deployment, or do they get to change things around?


No, both sides are tied to historical set up.

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Post #: 1853
RE: WitE 2 - 2/20/2020 8:05:45 AM   
Ian R

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R


This one?

quote:

[15.8] (Omission) ARMS CENTER DISRUPTION When playing the Historical
Campaign Game, all on map Russian Arms Centers cease all production as
soon as a cumulative total of 100 Russian ground combat units of any
type have been eliminated. Arms Centers in Siberia are not affected.





Yes, that's it. Funny to see it listed as an Omission. It's as if they just forgot to print the rule. Wow, if that's true, someone must have felt bad about forgetting to get that in the manual. It only totally changed the game balance. I'm not throwing stones though. I loved that game and would happily pay for lunch with anyone that had a hand in making that game.


Based on later magazine articles, and personal memoirs (including from those who bucked the system such as David Isby) I suspect two things happened there:

1. The in-house testers played it with the developers looking over their shoulders, and never fully gamed the system, including the Soviets never running as far and fast as possible to conserve their starting army; the Soviet set-up, and the sudden death rule* were thought sufficient, before the "post publication play-testing" proved otherwise.

2. The play testing probably never got to the summer of 1942.

All of which demonstrates the need for blind-testing, or in the modern parlance, beta testing.

[*That might have been a second edition rule. If it matters I could get the game out and look, if nostalgia requires it.]


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Ian R

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Post #: 1854
RE: WitE 2 - 2/20/2020 8:17:15 AM   
Ian R

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Are the Axis limited to their historical deployment, or do they get to change things around?


No, both sides are tied to historical set up.



In that case, I tend to agree to a large extent, a wholesale redeployment by the Red Army is not a great idea. Perhaps a little flexibility could be worked in to off-set historical hindsight, and the fact the Axis goes first. It's all a matter of degree though.


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Ian R

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Post #: 1855
RE: WitE 2 - 2/20/2020 8:30:34 AM   
821Bobo


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Destruction of NW and W fronts is not devastating from the long time perspective for Soviets(in both, WitE and WitE2) and some minor adjustment in deployment won't really change anything in the outcome of the first turn. Unlike WitE, annihilating SW and S fronts in first 2-3 turns is no longer possible in WitE2(well probably if Soviet player is completely incompetent then yes).

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Post #: 1856
RE: WitE 2 - 2/20/2020 9:07:14 AM   
Ian R

 

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Interesting. Perhaps I should volunteer to do a beta test. Is Robert Monical still about? He usually beats me, so we have a good baseline for balance purposes.

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Ian R

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Post #: 1857
RE: WitE 2 - 2/20/2020 9:16:29 AM   
821Bobo


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He hasn't been on the forum nearly for a month.
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/showprofile.asp?memId=38006

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Post #: 1858
RE: WitE 2 - 2/20/2020 10:19:39 AM   
Ian R

 

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I hope he is OK.

< Message edited by Ian R -- 2/20/2020 11:48:49 PM >


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Ian R

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Post #: 1859
RE: WitE 2 - 2/21/2020 2:06:13 AM   
Model1950

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: joelmar

There's so much going on in this game that each turn is a journey in itself, always bringing some new understanding and depth, which is where most of the fun lies for me.

Looking forward to see WitE2 in action! Thank you for this update.



< Message edited by JosephM -- 2/25/2020 3:16:39 PM >

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Post #: 1860
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