Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: WitE 2

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> RE: WitE 2 Page: <<   < prev  42 43 [44] 45 46   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: WitE 2 - 4/1/2017 4:54:47 AM   
Platypus

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 2/16/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hermann

my argument is the same as always. Supply. Rail is the only way to carry supply and rail lines have a capacity. unlimited supply to a point at the end of a rail line has to stop to avoid the insanity of 30-40 panzer divisions fully supplied at the end of 1000 mile line rail line with 2 tracks. a system of depot counters is the best option with supply actually traveling to the counters and a real capacity in the depots


Good analysis Hermann.
I have researched the topic "Railways in War" for a long time too.
Many other computer war simulations continually ignore these vital Logistics elements.
Rail, road, tracks [like Kokoda] canal and river vessels, coastal freighters, airfields and intermodal points [those vital junctions where these elements meet].
IIRC Gary & his team are the only programmers to include plausible logistics in gameplay.

The question now is whether your proposal can be easily added and balanced within the future WitE 2 engine.
I would like to see this realism added too.

Here is a great primer:The Rise of Rail-Power in War and Conquest - by Edwin Pratt

< Message edited by Platypus -- 4/1/2017 4:55:47 AM >

(in reply to Hermann)
Post #: 1291
RE: WitE 2 - 4/1/2017 5:50:29 AM   
Hermann

 

Posts: 571
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline
I've been spamming history forums for eons - the economics thread on axis history was my brainchild and took a substantial donation to implement. I love the whole economic warfare element and would love to see the rhg commands brought into play more effectively. depots and repair facilities were an enormous part of strategy, I think studying the strategic air war and doing a reverse analysis is helpful. canals are a great economic tool along with river shipping but not really applicable to the game they mainly moved bulk goods like coal and agricultural products not troops. a rail line has a capacity of how much weight per track section that's quickly eroded with frequent use rail cars averaged 29 tons and trains about 400 tons. the daily needs of a German division were 200 to 400 tons average for medium duty, putting 40 to 60 divisions at the end of a single rail line would require 12 to 18000 tons a day or roughly 30 to 45 fully loaded trains daily in each direction for 60 to 90 trains total. trains don't make the whole trip. they did roughly 40 mph so assume 400 miles for a 10 hour day, the train then needs to be unloaded and serviced so roughly 3 trains per day per 400 mile section 1 enroute 1 reloading and 1 returning.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=speed+of+german+military+trains+in+ww2+russia&view=detail&mid=72C1A9D582C4C0D4E52472C1A9D582C4C0D4E524&FORM=VIRE

https://forum.axishistory.com//viewtopic.php?t=203286

(in reply to Platypus)
Post #: 1292
RE: WitE 2 - 4/1/2017 7:30:40 AM   
atheory

 

Posts: 209
Joined: 6/5/2006
Status: offline
I am actually curious if the dev team could use an extra set of eyes. I have a lot of free time on my hands until Winter and can easily do testing or other mundane/tedious tasks. Anything to help the project.

(in reply to Hermann)
Post #: 1293
RE: WitE 2 - 4/1/2017 10:43:11 AM   
RedLancer


Posts: 4084
Joined: 11/16/2005
From: UK
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hermann

my argument is the same as always. Supply. Rail is the only way to carry supply and rail lines have a capacity. unlimited supply to a point at the end of a rail line has to stop to avoid the insanity of 30-40 panzer divisions fully supplied at the end of 1000 mile line rail line with 2 tracks. a system of depot counters is the best option with supply actually traveling to the counters and a real capacity in the depots



WitE2 uses an improved version of the WitW logistics system. Freight movement is tracked along rails and competes with unit movement. Congestion imposes higher costs although the new double rail lines provide higher capacity. Depot capacity is also variable. The Panzer Ball is no longer a good tactic and major advances have to exploit good communications.

_____________________________

John
WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

(in reply to Hermann)
Post #: 1294
RE: WitE 2 - 4/1/2017 10:53:31 AM   
RedLancer


Posts: 4084
Joined: 11/16/2005
From: UK
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Platypus

@ Red Lancer: I am interested in how you include individual leaders like this into the gameplay?
Example: Does he, as the CO add substantial morale to his unit, or are the combat modifiers adjusted in other ways. Most importantly, how do you still ensure game balance??



We are able to add him as we added named pilots in WitW alongside Commanders. Leadership rolls only effect HQ Commanders at Fliegerkorps and above so Rudel would need to be added as a pilot. That is simple and I did it in less time than it took to do this post. I've added him as a very skilled pilot so he'll be pretty good. Balance is achieved using knowledge of how the system behaves and a lot of testing. This is one reason why developing these games takes so long.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Red Lancer -- 4/1/2017 10:54:03 AM >


_____________________________

John
WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

(in reply to Platypus)
Post #: 1295
RE: WitE 2 - 4/1/2017 12:32:09 PM   
NPichler

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 3/29/2017
Status: offline
+1 Platypus and Hermann.

Guess I have some reading to do.

(in reply to RedLancer)
Post #: 1296
RE: WitE 2 - 4/1/2017 12:51:37 PM   
Platypus

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 2/16/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hermann

I've been spamming history forums for eons - the economics thread on axis history was my brainchild and took a substantial donation to implement. I love the whole economic warfare element and would love to see the rhg commands brought into play more effectively. depots and repair facilities were an enormous part of strategy, I think studying the strategic air war and doing a reverse analysis is helpful. canals are a great economic tool along with river shipping but not really applicable to the game they mainly moved bulk goods like coal and agricultural products not troops. a rail line has a capacity of how much weight per track section that's quickly eroded with frequent use rail cars averaged 29 tons and trains about 400 tons. the daily needs of a German division were 200 to 400 tons average for medium duty, putting 40 to 60 divisions at the end of a single rail line would require 12 to 18000 tons a day or roughly 30 to 45 fully loaded trains daily in each direction for 60 to 90 trains total. trains don't make the whole trip. they did roughly 40 mph so assume 400 miles for a 10 hour day, the train then needs to be unloaded and serviced so roughly 3 trains per day per 400 mile section 1 enroute 1 reloading and 1 returning.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=speed+of+german+military+trains+in+ww2+russia&view=detail&mid=72C1A9D582C4C0D4E52472C1A9D582C4C0D4E524&FORM=VIRE

https://forum.axishistory.com//viewtopic.php?t=203286


Hey Hermann -- correct.
The canals and rivers enabled the movement of bulk materials like raw materials, food and fuel [coal].
Let us not forget though, how it was the barges and river vessels that brought reinforcements, including food, medical supplies, fuel and ammunition to Stalingrad during the siege, whilst taking off wounded and other casualties.
Lake Ladoga is another example of a riverine/lake road that ensured survival of the Leningrad residents.

As you state, railways ensured that frontline units had supplies IN and wounded + damaged materiel OUT.
Nice job, enjoyed seeing the references you supplied - never seen these images before.

(in reply to Hermann)
Post #: 1297
RE: WitE 2 - 4/1/2017 12:56:25 PM   
Platypus

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 2/16/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Platypus

@ Red Lancer: I am interested in how you include individual leaders like this into the gameplay?
Example: Does he, as the CO add substantial morale to his unit, or are the combat modifiers adjusted in other ways. Most importantly, how do you still ensure game balance??



We are able to add him as we added named pilots in WitW alongside Commanders. Leadership rolls only effect HQ Commanders at Fliegerkorps and above so Rudel would need to be added as a pilot. That is simple and I did it in less time than it took to do this post. I've added him as a very skilled pilot so he'll be pretty good. Balance is achieved using knowledge of how the system behaves and a lot of testing. This is one reason why developing these games takes so long.





Strike me Pink -- you guys have really stitched up the entire game parameters = from individual pilot/soldier to Army Commander. No wonder that it takes so long to code....
Well done!

(in reply to RedLancer)
Post #: 1298
RE: WitE 2 - 4/1/2017 1:01:23 PM   
Platypus

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 2/16/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NPichler

+1 Platypus and Hermann.

Guess I have some reading to do.


As we all continue to do so.
Dum vivo Disco = While I live I learn!

(in reply to NPichler)
Post #: 1299
RE: WitE 2 - 4/2/2017 5:04:08 PM   
HermanGraf

 

Posts: 64
Joined: 6/17/2009
Status: offline
When we getting the entire war?

(in reply to Platypus)
Post #: 1300
RE: WitE 2 - 4/3/2017 10:34:26 AM   
Platypus

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 2/16/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HermanGraf

When we getting the entire war?


Oooooooooh --- and spend how long [weeks] in the preparation phase.......let alone the ops phase

(in reply to HermanGraf)
Post #: 1301
RE: WitE 2 - 4/3/2017 9:34:05 PM   
Hermann

 

Posts: 571
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Platypus

@ Red Lancer: I am interested in how you include individual leaders like this into the gameplay?
Example: Does he, as the CO add substantial morale to his unit, or are the combat modifiers adjusted in other ways. Most importantly, how do you still ensure game balance??



We are able to add him as we added named pilots in WitW alongside Commanders. Leadership rolls only effect HQ Commanders at Fliegerkorps and above so Rudel would need to be added as a pilot. That is simple and I did it in less time than it took to do this post. I've added him as a very skilled pilot so he'll be pretty good. Balance is achieved using knowledge of how the system behaves and a lot of testing. This is one reason why developing these games takes so long.






wOot !

(in reply to RedLancer)
Post #: 1302
RE: WitE 2 - 4/3/2017 9:35:59 PM   
Hermann

 

Posts: 571
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hermann

my argument is the same as always. Supply. Rail is the only way to carry supply and rail lines have a capacity. unlimited supply to a point at the end of a rail line has to stop to avoid the insanity of 30-40 panzer divisions fully supplied at the end of 1000 mile line rail line with 2 tracks. a system of depot counters is the best option with supply actually traveling to the counters and a real capacity in the depots



WitE2 uses an improved version of the WitW logistics system. Freight movement is tracked along rails and competes with unit movement. Congestion imposes higher costs although the new double rail lines provide higher capacity. Depot capacity is also variable. The Panzer Ball is no longer a good tactic and major advances have to exploit good communications.



wOot ! Goodnite Pelton, now youre going to have to learn to play the game =))

(in reply to RedLancer)
Post #: 1303
RE: WitE 2 - 4/4/2017 10:39:46 AM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 1931
Joined: 4/14/2016
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline
Good and interesting thread on Axis history Hermann, I have to do a lot of reading as well.

(in reply to Hermann)
Post #: 1304
RE: WitE 2 - 4/4/2017 8:04:35 PM   
Hermann

 

Posts: 571
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline
thanks I love that site

(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)
Post #: 1305
RE: WitE 2 - 4/5/2017 2:04:26 AM   
Hermann

 

Posts: 571
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline
shhhhh... I like the guy leave him be
Post #: 1306
RE: WitE 2 - 5/8/2017 9:18:11 PM   
martinsmit

 

Posts: 16
Joined: 5/8/2017
From: Rostov-on-Don
Status: offline
Hi everyone!
I'm new here, but I play a long time in WitE, and I have a question.
The developers of the WitE2 and WitE (after patch 1.07.11) are the same people?
IMHO in WitE after patch 1.07.11 the balance of the system CV (and not only) is severely disturbed
Thanks!

(in reply to Hermann)
Post #: 1307
RE: WitE 2 - 5/9/2017 8:28:49 PM   
No idea

 

Posts: 486
Joined: 6/24/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: martinsmit

Hi everyone!
I'm new here, but I play a long time in WitE, and I have a question.
The developers of the WitE2 and WitE (after patch 1.07.11) are the same people?
IMHO in WitE after patch 1.07.11 the balance of the system CV (and not only) is severely disturbed
Thanks!


In WITE, after a certain patch (it might be 1.07, but I am not sure) developers stopped supporting the game directly. Instead, a few fans took that work (and they did a good job, although I guess some people dont like it as much as the previous work).

(in reply to martinsmit)
Post #: 1308
RE: WitE 2 - 5/9/2017 8:36:14 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11745
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline
Yes, don't worry martinsmit, WitW and WitE2 comes from the same people as WitE before patch 1.07.11.

(in reply to No idea)
Post #: 1309
RE: WitE 2 - 5/9/2017 9:13:21 PM   
Denniss

 

Posts: 6835
Joined: 1/10/2002
From: Germany, Hannover (region)
Status: offline
Maybe think of the "fans" who took over WitP and developed it into WitP:AE

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 1310
RE: WitE 2 - 5/10/2017 3:13:55 PM   
MechFO

 

Posts: 404
Joined: 6/1/2007
Status: offline
Not on the horizon for WITE2 but for WITE3 something like the below would be a giant step forward. Arguably the weakest part of the WITE is it's time machine.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4274372

(in reply to Denniss)
Post #: 1311
RE: WitE 2 - 5/23/2017 6:53:55 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 1931
Joined: 4/14/2016
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline
Regarding the WitE II Manual: I hope that the manual will as much improve as the game itself.
The WitE I Manual is quite long but it leaves a lot of things unclear which results in a lot of questions here on the forum. Maybe one introductional manual to get used with the basics and one in detail manual with focus on being very precise which explains more difficult/tricky things for those interested. I also prefer slightly different presentation of the information than given in the WitE-Manual. A quick comparison:
Manual:
quote:

In order to receive supply, a combat unit first attempts to trace a path to the headquarters unit to which it is attached. The combat unit must
be within both five hexes and twenty MPs of the applicable headquarters unit. In order for a headquarters unit to provide supply to its
attached combat and support units, it in turn must be within both 25 hexes and 100 MPs of a railhead. If a combat unit cannot trace an
eligible path to its headquarters unit, it will then attempt to trace a path to a railhead as if it was a headquarters unit, i.e. within both 25
hexes and 100 MPs of the railhead. Note that Air base and Rail repair units, though HQ units, are treated as combat units for supply purposes
per the above. Also note the distinction between supply state and tracing supply, in that a unit that is within 100 MPs, but not within 25
hexes, is considered in supply, but nonetheless, will not be able to receive supply due to exceeding the 25 hex requirement.


The way I can digest the information best, copy and paste from my "how supply works" manual I wrote for myself:
quote:

The following conditions have to be met so supplies can flow from the railhead to the HQ and from there to the units:
1. MP distance unit-HQ: <21MPs (not taken into account if the hexagon distance is <2)
2. Hexagon distance unit-HQ: <6hexagons
3. MP distance eligible HQ-railhead: <101MPs
4. Hexagon distance HQ-railhead: <26hexagons
Therefore, the maximum distance from the railhead which still allows unit resupply is <31hexagons and <121MPs.
If the conditions 3&4 are not fulfilled, the subordinate unit can still be supplied from the dumps which existed in the HQ unit. The conditions 1&2 still have to be fulfilled in this case.

I don't want to say I am good in writing manuals just giving an example.

Maybe I am alone with this view, but I prefer the very strict presentation comparable to the one to be found in mathematical books.
Regardless of the manual, WitE II will be an instant buy :)

(in reply to MechFO)
Post #: 1312
RE: WitE 2 - 5/24/2017 11:01:16 AM   
RedLancer


Posts: 4084
Joined: 11/16/2005
From: UK
Status: online
Work on the WitE2 Manual has yet to begin in detail. However we have looked at re-organising the information to make things easier to find. The current plan is for the Manual to be broken down into nine colour coded sections. Each section will start with an explanation of the aim of the section and an overview of the section’s layout.

The plan is that the detail will broadly follow the decision action cycle / OODA Loop. First tell you what things are (Observe), what to look at (Orientate), what is important in choosing (Decide) and lastly how to effect a change (Act). Finally a few key tips and hints to guide players in the right direction.

The Sections we envisage are:

GETTING STARTED (BROWN). This section provides basic background information and instructions to get you ready to start playing the game (i.e. on the map and ready to move the first counter).

BASIC GAMEPLAY (YELLOW). This section provides instructions on how to get playing the game with the minimum of fuss and bother. This section also includes, where relevant, full page guides which show in cartoon strip format basic step by step guides to support basic game play and links to more detailed sections. For those with WitW this is the Player’s Handbook.

PLAYING ENVIRONMENT (RED). This section provides detailed information on both the game’s graphic user interface and the map on which combat is conducted.

AIR COMBAT (LT BLUE). This section provides detailed information on how to handle air forces and the associated rules.

GROUND COMBAT (GREEN). This section provides detailed information on how to handle ground forces and the associated rules.

NAVAL & AMPHIBIOUS COMBAT (DARK BLUE). This section provides detailed information on how to handle naval forces and the associated rules.

LOGISTICS & PRODUCTION (PINK). This section provides detail on the functioning and rules that govern the resupply of units and the creation of materiel.

APPENDICIES (GREY). This section groups together reference material and information not included in the other sections to help readability.

CREDITS (ORANGE)


_____________________________

John
WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)
Post #: 1313
RE: WitE 2 - 5/24/2017 11:07:43 AM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 1931
Joined: 4/14/2016
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline
Thank you for the in detail answer!
That definitely sounds like a good concept to introduce players into the game.

(in reply to RedLancer)
Post #: 1314
RE: WitE 2 - 5/24/2017 8:15:30 PM   
Tejszd

 

Posts: 3345
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline
Definitely would like more historical options for replay ability and possibly play balance.

Germans attack early Apr. - Germans attack Greece (Apr. 6) and Russia together so have less units and supply buildup
Germans attack mid May - Germans quickly attack after Greece falls (Apr. 30) with less supply buildup and don't wait for Crete to fall (Jun. 1)
Germans friendlier to locals - reduced Russian partisan activity/support
Russian military purges reduced - better leadership/morale
Russian readiness increased - Stalin not worried about provoking the Germans (builds forts and or HQ supply buildup)
Non-Random Weather - we already have
Reduced Blizzard - we already have

Random option(s)

(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)
Post #: 1315
RE: WitE 2 - 5/25/2017 9:28:21 AM   
kch

 

Posts: 171
Joined: 12/31/2014
Status: offline
Sorry if this has already been answered somewhere else, but is WITE 2 slated for 2017?

(in reply to Tejszd)
Post #: 1316
RE: WitE 2 - 5/25/2017 1:28:37 PM   
Commanderski


Posts: 892
Joined: 12/12/2010
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

Sorry if this has already been answered somewhere else, but is WITE 2 slated for 2017?


They haven't started Beta testing yet. That usually lasts a year or so. I wouldn't look for this until late 2018 at the earliest

(in reply to kch)
Post #: 1317
RE: WitE 2 - 5/25/2017 1:43:39 PM   
RedLancer


Posts: 4084
Joined: 11/16/2005
From: UK
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tejszd

Definitely would like more historical options for replay ability and possibly play balance.

Germans attack early Apr. - Germans attack Greece (Apr. 6) and Russia together so have less units and supply buildup
Germans attack mid May - Germans quickly attack after Greece falls (Apr. 30) with less supply buildup and don't wait for Crete to fall (Jun. 1)
Germans friendlier to locals - reduced Russian partisan activity/support
Russian military purges reduced - better leadership/morale
Russian readiness increased - Stalin not worried about provoking the Germans (builds forts and or HQ supply buildup)
Non-Random Weather - we already have
Reduced Blizzard - we already have

Random option(s)


WitE2 has a new event system that can be used together with the editor to cover most of what you suggest. However I doubt there will be ahistoric scenarios at game release. The new weather system and winter rules mean that your last two suggestions no longer really apply.

_____________________________

John
WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

(in reply to Tejszd)
Post #: 1318
RE: WitE 2 - 6/21/2017 12:00:01 PM   
Hortlund


Posts: 2884
Joined: 10/13/2000
Status: offline
So, Im just trying to get what sort of game WitE2 will be. Are we roughly talking about the WitW-engine with the WitE OOB and map?


_____________________________

The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

(in reply to RedLancer)
Post #: 1319
RE: WitE 2 - 6/21/2017 12:03:59 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11745
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline
I think many aspects are expanded compared to WitW, so it think WitE2 to WitW will be like WitW to WitE.

(in reply to Hortlund)
Post #: 1320
Page:   <<   < prev  42 43 [44] 45 46   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> RE: WitE 2 Page: <<   < prev  42 43 [44] 45 46   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.195