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RE: WitE 2 - 11/25/2016 9:19:05 AM   
Confusedesh

 

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Joined: 7/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

Very nice have you changed the bocage and polder art too?



Had a look at changing the Bocage but nothing worked better then what is there already but as I gradually change things I will have a look again.

At present I am going to try and get an overall appearance then later I can add new elements to enhance the appearance so for example I should be able to change some of the stylised woods and forests to turn in part brown when the mud arrives in autumn.



Decided to try a quick look at the trees turning brown of course they are tied to the mud rather then the season but adds another indicator that there is heavy mud in a hex.

[image][/image]




< Message edited by Confusedesh -- 11/25/2016 10:03:39 AM >

(in reply to RedLancer)
Post #: 1171
RE: WitE 2 - 11/25/2016 6:59:11 PM   
comte


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From: Be'eri, Hadarom, Israel
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These are some really nice maps. Any plans for a release?

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Post #: 1172
RE: WitE 2 - 11/26/2016 12:10:02 PM   
Confusedesh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aces8

These are some really nice maps. Any plans for a release?


My intention is to have it for WitE2 so I am really really taking my time but I will at some stage

upload it for WitW which I have not even played yet.

(in reply to comte)
Post #: 1173
RE: WitE 2 - 11/28/2016 12:45:49 PM   
robinsa


Posts: 182
Joined: 7/24/2013
From: North Carolina
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Thanks for doing this and I hope it works out well in the end. The current WITW/WITE2 map is a deal breaker for me. It makes my head hurt if I play the game for more than 30 min. It is too cluttered and the hexes look all the same which tiers my brain and make the game close to unplayable for extended periods.

Its not like these hex based games are super heavy on the computer anyway so I do not get why they decided to go with this ugly map. Aesthetics is an area where the game is actually lacking and not an area to be scaled back for something (performance) that shouldn't be a problem for most users anyway. If performance is a problem for many users its the coding not the map that needs to be addressed. In this sense I truly feel that WITW/WITE2 is a downgrade from WITE or WITPAE. It used to be that these game were 10-15 times year behind in terms of graphics but this one is more like 20-25.

Other than this, I look forward to the game and I hope this is solved in some way. Either through fan contributions like this (which I am very grateful for) or by some official patch.

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Post #: 1174
RE: WitE 2 - 11/28/2016 12:54:44 PM   
wktr8222

 

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Hey, I work in Przasnysz!!

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Post #: 1175
RE: WitE 2 - 11/28/2016 1:31:38 PM   
RedLancer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: robinsa

Its not like these hex based games are super heavy on the computer anyway so I do not get why they decided to go with this ugly map. Aesthetics is an area where the game is actually lacking and not an area to be scaled back for something (performance) that shouldn't be a problem for most users anyway. If performance is a problem for many users its the coding not the map that needs to be addressed. In this sense I truly feel that WITW/WITE2 is a downgrade from WITE or WITPAE. It used to be that these game were 10-15 times year behind in terms of graphics but this one is more like 20-25.



The WitW/E2 map design was chosen to retain the style of the original WitE map. I'm sorry you don't like it. The maps are created in completely different ways for very good reasons. WitE uses slower tableaus and WitW/E2 uses a mosaic. Going to a mosaic allows us to 'use' processing power elsewhere as it is less performance hungry. It also allows us to keep amending the map all the way through development - moving a town here and adding a rail line there. So far in WitE2 development I have made hundreds of map changes to improve accuracy. These would have been impossible with a tableau.

There have been a number of processing improvements in recent code changes for WitW/WitE2 as the improved logistic system requires significant resource and probably more than you imagine.

_____________________________

John
WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

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Post #: 1176
RE: WitE 2 - 11/28/2016 1:59:20 PM   
robinsa


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I understand you reasons for using the new map. Sorry for using the word ugly. That's not actually what I meant. The artwork itself is not bad per se. What I mean is that the repetitive nature of the map becomes tiresome and the map feels extremely sterile. I liked the original WITE map and the modded WITE/WITPAE maps because they had a lot of personality. Each region felt different due to the different color schemes and tones (I am no artist so I can only describe my experience). I don't get that feeling with the WITW map. In fact I would have trouble distinguishing one area from another unless there are some very distinctive geological features. I imagine the WITE map will have even less personality due to the amount of open land.

(in reply to RedLancer)
Post #: 1177
RE: WitE 2 - 11/28/2016 2:07:29 PM   
morvael


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Maybe there just should be more variants of hex interiors, so they would be less repetetive? Coasts and rivers are fine.

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Post #: 1178
RE: WitE 2 - 11/28/2016 5:03:38 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 1966
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From: Berlin, Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: robinsa

Thanks for doing this and I hope it works out well in the end. The current WITW/WITE2 map is a deal breaker for me. It makes my head hurt if I play the game for more than 30 min. It is too cluttered and the hexes look all the same which tiers my brain and make the game close to unplayable for extended periods.

Its not like these hex based games are super heavy on the computer anyway so I do not get why they decided to go with this ugly map. Aesthetics is an area where the game is actually lacking and not an area to be scaled back for something (performance) that shouldn't be a problem for most users anyway. If performance is a problem for many users its the coding not the map that needs to be addressed. In this sense I truly feel that WITW/WITE2 is a downgrade from WITE or WITPAE. It used to be that these game were 10-15 times year behind in terms of graphics but this one is more like 20-25.

Other than this, I look forward to the game and I hope this is solved in some way. Either through fan contributions like this (which I am very grateful for) or by some official patch.


WITE 1 10 years behind in terms of graphics? The underlying map is very beautiful and the benchmark for everything else. It's a pleasure to look at it, it provides all necessary information regarding the terrain, but is not overloaded with eye candy.

Compared to this, the mosaic tiles are ugly. But if I have to choose, I prefer good game mechanics over good graphics.

WITE 2 engine + WITE 1 map=WITE 3?????

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Post #: 1179
RE: WitE 2 - 11/29/2016 12:40:48 PM   
robinsa


Posts: 182
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From: North Carolina
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist


quote:

ORIGINAL: robinsa

Thanks for doing this and I hope it works out well in the end. The current WITW/WITE2 map is a deal breaker for me. It makes my head hurt if I play the game for more than 30 min. It is too cluttered and the hexes look all the same which tiers my brain and make the game close to unplayable for extended periods.

Its not like these hex based games are super heavy on the computer anyway so I do not get why they decided to go with this ugly map. Aesthetics is an area where the game is actually lacking and not an area to be scaled back for something (performance) that shouldn't be a problem for most users anyway. If performance is a problem for many users its the coding not the map that needs to be addressed. In this sense I truly feel that WITW/WITE2 is a downgrade from WITE or WITPAE. It used to be that these game were 10-15 times year behind in terms of graphics but this one is more like 20-25.

Other than this, I look forward to the game and I hope this is solved in some way. Either through fan contributions like this (which I am very grateful for) or by some official patch.


WITE 1 10 years behind in terms of graphics? The underlying map is very beautiful and the benchmark for everything else. It's a pleasure to look at it, it provides all necessary information regarding the terrain, but is not overloaded with eye candy.

Compared to this, the mosaic tiles are ugly. But if I have to choose, I prefer good game mechanics over good graphics.

WITE 2 engine + WITE 1 map=WITE 3?????


I expressed myself poorly from the very start yesterday. I lacked sleep and was irritated which resulted in a bad tone. I know this isn't the forum to vent my anger but that's what happened. Sorry if anyone was offended.

The graphics might not be dated but that's not the point. My point is that I don't like the map. I find it hard to get immersed in and I also find that it tiers my brain in a way the original map did not.

I agree with you that the mechanics are superior to the older game and that it likely will be a better game overall than its predecessor.

(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)
Post #: 1180
RE: WitE 2 - 11/29/2016 9:24:47 PM   
RedLancer


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I haven't taken offence. I really like strong opinion and argument but detest insult. Argument is a catalyst to improvement.

Delivering a map of this type with 36,000 hexes is a challenge and I appreciate that some might not like it. Morvael's comment is well made but such improvements need someone with the requisite graphic art skills and the dedication to make the changes. Volunteer effort is a huge part of delivering these games. Finding someone to do so is very difficult as I know all too well.



< Message edited by Red Lancer -- 12/8/2016 8:19:47 PM >


_____________________________

John
WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

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Post #: 1181
RE: WitE 2 - 11/30/2016 2:55:00 AM   
robinsa


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From: North Carolina
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That's a good approach. I don't think my initial critique was constructive in nature but lets move on from that. I appreciate your work and lets hope someone with the right skill set and time appear!

(in reply to RedLancer)
Post #: 1182
RE: WitE 2 - 11/30/2016 4:46:23 AM   
Icier


Posts: 564
Joined: 7/15/2014
From: a sunny beach nsw
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quote:

ORIGINAL: robinsa

I understand you reasons for using the new map. Sorry for using the word ugly. That's not actually what I meant. The artwork itself is not bad per se. What I mean is that the repetitive nature of the map becomes tiresome and the map feels extremely sterile. I liked the original WITE map and the modded WITE/WITPAE maps because they had a lot of personality. Each region felt different due to the different color schemes and tones (I am no artist so I can only describe my experience). I don't get that feeling with the WITW map. In fact I would have trouble distinguishing one area from another unless there are some very distinctive geological features. I imagine the WITE map will have even less personality due to the amount of open land.


Perhaps Jison may come to the rescue.

_____________________________

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

(in reply to robinsa)
Post #: 1183
RE: WitE 2 - 12/3/2016 4:48:24 PM   
chrisdrost

 

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The Jison map mod looks great. The WiTE maps current and planned in my opinion are ugly.

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Post #: 1184
RE: WitE 2 - 12/3/2016 5:15:41 PM   
RedLancer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chrisdrost

The Jison map mod looks great. The WiTE maps current and planned in my opinion are ugly.


They are made in a completely different manner. Before we started on WitE2 I asked Jison for his original artwork to look to see whether I could reproduce his mod in WitW format. Whilst supportive he couldn't do so as he had not kept the files.

_____________________________

John
WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

(in reply to chrisdrost)
Post #: 1185
RE: WitE 2 - 12/3/2016 7:03:38 PM   
Icier


Posts: 564
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From: a sunny beach nsw
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer


quote:

ORIGINAL: chrisdrost

The Jison map mod looks great. The WiTE maps current and planned in my opinion are ugly.


They are made in a completely different manner. Before we started on WitE2 I asked Jison for his original artwork to look to see whether I could reproduce his mod in WitW format. Whilst supportive he couldn't do so as he had not kept the files.


Pity..his maps had style & made the game a joy to the eye...in other words "LESS EYE STRAIN"


_____________________________

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

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Post #: 1186
RE: WitE 2 - 12/6/2016 12:45:09 PM   
Commanderski


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While over the years more and more information is coming out about the land battles on the Eastern Front and there are quite a few great books on the subject from various authors but very little has been written about the air wars. I'm sure they played a more significant impact on the battles than most books give them credit for if the air combat is mentioned at all.

Since the air war in WITE 2.0 will be modeled after WITW, what sources are you using to develop the air directives..etc.?

I like to read about what I'm using in the game as it helps to know the capabilities of your units when planning your attacks. The same would be true of your air units. Are there any detailed books out on the air war on the Eastern Front?

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Post #: 1187
RE: WitE 2 - 12/6/2016 7:41:53 PM   
BletchleyGeek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Commanderski

While over the years more and more information is coming out about the land battles on the Eastern Front and there are quite a few great books on the subject from various authors but very little has been written about the air wars. I'm sure they played a more significant impact on the battles than most books give them credit for if the air combat is mentioned at all.

Since the air war in WITE 2.0 will be modeled after WITW, what sources are you using to develop the air directives..etc.?

I like to read about what I'm using in the game as it helps to know the capabilities of your units when planning your attacks. The same would be true of your air units. Are there any detailed books out on the air war on the Eastern Front?


This would be a good one to start, if you manage to get your hands on it:

Black Cross / Red Star: The Air War Over the Eastern Front, Vol. 1: Operation Barbarossa, 1941 Hardcover
Christer Bergstrom, Andrey Mikhailov

https://www.amazon.com/Black-Cross-Red-Star-Barbarossa/dp/0935553487

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Post #: 1188
RE: WitE 2 - 12/6/2016 10:15:10 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 1966
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From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Commanderski

While over the years more and more information is coming out about the land battles on the Eastern Front and there are quite a few great books on the subject from various authors but very little has been written about the air wars. I'm sure they played a more significant impact on the battles than most books give them credit for if the air combat is mentioned at all.

Since the air war in WITE 2.0 will be modeled after WITW, what sources are you using to develop the air directives..etc.?

I like to read about what I'm using in the game as it helps to know the capabilities of your units when planning your attacks. The same would be true of your air units. Are there any detailed books out on the air war on the Eastern Front?


The air war is not my prime interest, but according to Nigel Askey (author of Operation Barbarossa, the complete organisational and statistical analysis), it played a mediocre role in this campaign. Link to the very readworthy article:
http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Luftwaffe-GS-Strength-411.pdf
More focused on the aircraft vs. tanks question:
http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/combat-aircraft-versus-armour-in-wwii/

I value Askey very high because he tries to give statistical proof instead of stories of single soldiers which tell about the omnipresent, devastating air force or superior T-34s.

(in reply to Commanderski)
Post #: 1189
RE: WitE 2 - 12/7/2016 12:43:44 PM   
Commanderski


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Thank you Bletchley_Geek and EwaldvonKleist. I have Black Cross / Red Star: The Air War Over the Eastern Front, Vol. 1: ordered and is on the way. Volume 1 cost as much as volumes 2 and 3 combined.

The information that Askey wrote is very good and found his website. It will be interesting if he can develop that game he is working on.

(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)
Post #: 1190
RE: WitE 2 - 12/7/2016 2:26:43 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


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From: Berlin, Germany
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Btw. I can highly recommend Askeys Books. They are expensive, but have an outstanding density of information and statistics. As an engineer/physicist, he also writes profound about aspects like peneteation value, the influence if turret baskets on the tank Performance and all this stuff.
And he provides the probably most comprehensive Barbarossa OOB ever published

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Post #: 1191
RE: WitE 2 - 12/9/2016 10:41:11 AM   
Confusedesh

 

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If the engine allows it the developers should consider adding an under\over layer for the whole map that would alter the colour of the individual hexes so you could create an effect similar to what you have on the water but without the need to do so using individual hexes.

It would allow you to add contours to the land, shading and subtle differences in the terrain colours, no expert but this may be possible and not put a great strain on the calculations.


Photoshopped example of what you could then attempt........[image][/image]




In passing I came across the new map for Gettysburg: The Tide Turns


http://www.slitherine.com/products/635/details/Gettysburg:.The.Tide.Turns

What a lovely map,I like the idea that a developer is not trying to make every map look like your viewing a cheap version of the real world from a balloon, you can still have something that is stylistic, beautiful to look at but also unique to the game.

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Post #: 1192
RE: WitE 2 - 12/11/2016 1:56:35 AM   
Searry

 

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Hi, any news on this project? Should I still buy WITE1?

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Post #: 1193
RE: WitE 2 - 12/11/2016 4:32:40 AM   
heliodorus04


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Searry

Hi, any news on this project? Should I still buy WITE1?


A long way off. WitE1 is a great game, but I can't tell you what to do with your money. I have owned it since 2010 and I still play it often.

_____________________________

Fall 2021-Playing: Stalingrad'42 (GMT); Advanced Squad Leader,
Reading: Masters of the Air (GREAT BOOK!)
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Post #: 1194
RE: WitE 2 - 12/11/2016 5:22:46 AM   
Searry

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04


quote:

ORIGINAL: Searry

Hi, any news on this project? Should I still buy WITE1?


A long way off. WitE1 is a great game, but I can't tell you what to do with your money. I have owned it since 2010 and I still play it often.

Thanks! I think I'll buy it then.

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Post #: 1195
RE: WitE 2 - 12/11/2016 6:46:30 AM   
Searry

 

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I'd like to make a suggestion for WITE2.
Please enable divisional artillery to fire at targets other divisions are attacking. Why would you need to commit an entire division to bear it's artillery to use?

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Post #: 1196
RE: WitE 2 - 12/11/2016 7:46:44 AM   
wodin


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Like the map..would have been cool if the trees changed colour over the season though:)

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Post #: 1197
RE: WitE 2 - 12/11/2016 8:54:22 AM   
swkuh

 

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Suggestion for something new to add:

Brief player notes to append to detail panels for HQs, divisions, and maybe smaller units. Such to permit player to annotate plans for that unit, e.g., "send to AG South next turn"

For playing multiple games over different response cycles, it would be great.

(in reply to Confusedesh)
Post #: 1198
RE: WitE 2 - 12/11/2016 3:35:09 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 1966
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+1

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Post #: 1199
RE: WitE 2 - 12/11/2016 4:03:15 PM   
RedLancer


Posts: 4306
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The notes issue has come up on the Dev forum.

_____________________________

John
WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)
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