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RE: WitE 2 - 10/1/2016 11:29:09 PM   
Stelteck

 

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I see what you mean.

How about creating a minimum fatigue value to simulate that ?

A normal fresh unit can clear fatigue to 0 if rested. But each time the fatigue of the unit raise above 60%, the minimum fatigue is increased +5.
So after some turns of combat, minimum fatigue of the unit is not 0, but 10, 20, 30...... And even rested, fatigue stay at this level.

This minimum fatigue decrease upon time without combat like normal fatigue, but unlike normal fatigue, very slowly, such as 1/2/3 points each turn (admin rolls).

Also, normal fatigue level shall increase front line attrition.

< Message edited by Stelteck -- 10/1/2016 11:35:16 PM >

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RE: WitE 2 - 10/2/2016 3:15:19 AM   
Peltonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

I was thinking of another type of exhaustion, something between the two, where all your soldiers have PTSD, but you cannot replace them, because you lack manpower. So this isn't short term fatigue (that exists in WitE as "FAT") nor the global war exhaustion (that exists in WitE as hardcoded morale change), but something that makes your units worn out without the ability to fully rest them, unless you remove them from battle for half a year or more. The troops are resigned to their fate, some get mad and kill themselves, some go berserk and die etc. Guess such units of near-zombies are less effective than fresh ones.


Your missing the boat!

how you can act like you know how to play and give advise is kinda wrong

You know **** about 'playing'

your advise sucks bro sorry.

spend your time fixing the ****ed up **** 2by3 handed you and stop giving just wrong player adive.

your tips are just wrong and suck.

D-mans data can not help at this point.

Spend more time with your family bro





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Post #: 1082
RE: WitE 2 - 10/2/2016 5:16:31 AM   
charlie0311

 

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Not only missing the boat, even missing the water with this. Sorry M.

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RE: WitE 2 - 10/2/2016 7:32:01 AM   
morvael


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This effect is clearly depicted in all diaires of privates from Eastern Front. Everyone has a point at which his psyche is permanently affected by the horrors of war. You need fresh recruits to overcome this, but Germans were forced to rely a lot on recycled manpower, and so it was overall dropping in quality. You gain experience fighting, but also accumulate "insanity points" to borrow a term from some other game. At some point the penalty from the second factor becomes dominant. I don't understand your comments, this is not advice, just an observation that there is long term fatigue (psychical) beside short term one (physical).

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Post #: 1084
RE: WitE 2 - 10/2/2016 10:30:43 AM   
Red Lancer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton


quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

I was thinking of another type of exhaustion, something between the two, where all your soldiers have PTSD, but you cannot replace them, because you lack manpower. So this isn't short term fatigue (that exists in WitE as "FAT") nor the global war exhaustion (that exists in WitE as hardcoded morale change), but something that makes your units worn out without the ability to fully rest them, unless you remove them from battle for half a year or more. The troops are resigned to their fate, some get mad and kill themselves, some go berserk and die etc. Guess such units of near-zombies are less effective than fresh ones.


Your missing the boat!

how you can act like you know how to play and give advise is kinda wrong

You know **** about 'playing'

your advise sucks bro sorry.

spend your time fixing the ****ed up **** 2by3 handed you and stop giving just wrong player adive.

your tips are just wrong and suck.

D-mans data can not help at this point.

Spend more time with your family bro






When are you going to learn? You are on a final warning for this type of behaviour yet you still persist. I suggest you stop now before you cross the line once and for all (if you haven't already.)


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Post #: 1085
RE: WitE 2 - 10/2/2016 10:35:46 AM   
Red Lancer


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I cannot envisage any major changes in WitE2 to the current system as to how MORALE, EXPERIENCE and FATIGUE influence combat and movement.

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Post #: 1086
RE: WitE 2 - 10/2/2016 10:48:27 AM   
zakblood


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well that didn't take long

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RE: WitE 2 - 10/2/2016 11:46:18 AM   
EwaldvonKleist


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@stelteck&morvael: Good example how a rational discussion can change the mind of people-I know see your point and I like it. It contributes only a litle bit to prevent snowballing (my thinking is here: The sides which wins has longer fighting soldiers because they don't die like flies, therefore they have more permanent fatigue).

@morvael: Was your "I don't understand your comment" directed to Pelton or me? I used physical and psychological according to the definition I gave in my last post, I am no native speaker so sorry if they were misleading. "Physical" means something you can touch, "psychological" somethin you can't touch, at least in the english I created for this single post


@Red Lancer: So the morale/fatigue/experience system remains mostly as it is in WITE 1? No disrespect but I do not understand why the game is so sophisticated in some aspects (combat engine black box, detailed TOE, support unit micromanagement) while mixing up some really important numbers in a single all powerful morale multiplier.


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Post #: 1088
RE: WitE 2 - 10/2/2016 11:56:02 AM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

This effect is clearly depicted in all diaires of privates from Eastern Front. Everyone has a point at which his psyche is permanently affected by the horrors of war. You need fresh recruits to overcome this, but Germans were forced to rely a lot on recycled manpower, and so it was overall dropping in quality. You gain experience fighting, but also accumulate "insanity points" to borrow a term from some other game. At some point the penalty from the second factor becomes dominant. I don't understand your comments, this is not advice, just an observation that there is long term fatigue (psychical) beside short term one (physical).


And indeed in all armies at all times though no doubt at different levels in different times and different cultures. An absolutely excellent book that describes the problem in a tough Scottish infantry unit on the west front in '44-'45, is 'With the Jocks' by Peter White


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RE: WitE 2 - 10/2/2016 12:16:34 PM   
Red Lancer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

@Red Lancer: So the morale/fatigue/experience system remains mostly as it is in WITE 1? No disrespect but I do not understand why the game is so sophisticated in some aspects (combat engine black box, detailed TOE, support unit micromanagement) while mixing up some really important numbers in a single all powerful morale multiplier.



In essence it will. WitE2 will be an evolution from WitE via WitW. WitE took almost a decade, WitW took 4 years and we are over a year in with WitE2. Some items exist in so many places in the code that changing them may well do more harm than good. As has been often said morale is not really morale and is perhaps best described as combat capability. People can read too much into their understanding of morale. We did consider renaming it but even that was considered to be too much effort.

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RE: WitE 2 - 10/2/2016 3:21:39 PM   
rmonical

 

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quote:

@Red Lancer: So the morale/fatigue/experience system remains mostly as it is in WITE 1? No disrespect but I do not understand why the game is so sophisticated in some aspects (combat engine black box, detailed TOE, support unit micromanagement) while mixing up some really important numbers in a single all powerful morale multiplier.


I think you have national morale, unit morale, unit experience, leader quality, and fatigue. And WITE2 adds another short term effect: preparation points.

The system seems pretty sophisticated to me. How would you construct a more sophisticated "quality" multiplier that would be a material improvement over what we have now?

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RE: WitE 2 - 10/2/2016 5:18:14 PM   
No idea

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rmonical


quote:

@Red Lancer: So the morale/fatigue/experience system remains mostly as it is in WITE 1? No disrespect but I do not understand why the game is so sophisticated in some aspects (combat engine black box, detailed TOE, support unit micromanagement) while mixing up some really important numbers in a single all powerful morale multiplier.


I think you have national morale, unit morale, unit experience, leader quality, and fatigue. And WITE2 adds another short term effect: preparation points.

The system seems pretty sophisticated to me. How would you construct a more sophisticated "quality" multiplier that would be a material improvement over what we have now?


What are "preparation points"?

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RE: WitE 2 - 10/2/2016 5:58:41 PM   
Red Lancer


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For Prep Pts see Post 560 : http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3933956&mpage=19&key=

The rules have recently changed but you get the idea (no pun intended).

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Post #: 1093
RE: WitE 2 - 10/2/2016 11:03:02 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rmonical


quote:

@Red Lancer: So the morale/fatigue/experience system remains mostly as it is in WITE 1? No disrespect but I do not understand why the game is so sophisticated in some aspects (combat engine black box, detailed TOE, support unit micromanagement) while mixing up some really important numbers in a single all powerful morale multiplier.


I think you have national morale, unit morale, unit experience, leader quality, and fatigue. And WITE2 adds another short term effect: preparation points.

The system seems pretty sophisticated to me. How would you construct a more sophisticated "quality" multiplier that would be a material improvement over what we have now?


I wrote a post where I explained my idea in detail, please follow this link rmonical: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3933956&mpage=36&key=#

Morale mixes up doctrinal skill/doctrinal combat efficiency with the will to fight of the whole nation and/or unit. This combines very long term effects (combat efficiency) with short term effects (did the unit lose a battle last turn or not?) in one single, powerful multiplier which is in addition has a major influence on the experience multiplier (right?).
In addition, there should be a good impact of green replacements on unit experience.

@RedLancer: Because everything is mixed in the Morale thing, no word will ever fit satisfactorily. Prep points do not solve this old problem but they are a good new thing.

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RE: WitE 2 - 10/3/2016 4:39:45 PM   
sillyflower


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Experience does go down with the arrival of replacements. Quite a lot if you have quite a lot of replacements.

I have always thought that prep points combine recovering from the effects of any recent combat,making sure soldiers have all their kit in working order and know how to use it and are being trained both generally and in relation to everything about their planned objectives/terrain etc, which will/should feed back into the plans.

Of course all this should improve morale and experience levels in a virtuous circle. Morale is a tricky concept. Everyone knows what it means in terms of an individual, squad etc but any large battle is for the participants a mass of tiny battles with participants having limited or virtually no knowledge of what is going on beyond what they can see and hear.

No one is ever going to model morale realistically even in a skirmish game where 1 figure represents 1 man because individuals behave very differently in the same situation- something training is designed to minimise. It is so complex that the old miniatures method of throwing a couple of dice and adding/subtracting for specific factors then looking at a table to see whether a unit will obey you or do something else is just as accurate most of the time than anything more sophisticated - and more fun into the bargain.

In short - making it more sophisticated isn't going to make the game better in a way that is worth the effort, if at all. Nm can be tweaked because it is so basic, and is somewhat counter-intuitive at the moment.For example changes could be linked to current VP levels as a measure of 'how well are we doing' but then there's the impact on gameplay. More rule changes that help the player who is already winning are the last thing WiTE 2 needs IMHO.

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Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

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RE: WitE 2 - 10/4/2016 7:58:39 PM   
Elijah

 

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I think Morvael is onto something here...This sort of thing would be out of place in most wargames, but given the duration, nature, and intensity of what was, without a doubt, the most intense conflict in human history, it makes a lot of sense. In terms of the game design however, there should be someway to 'rest' units to reduce the IP buildup.

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RE: WitE 2 - 10/4/2016 8:08:05 PM   
Elijah

 

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Ah I see now there will be an 'axis reserve box' Perhaps placing divisions there, or to garrison areas that are non-combat like France 41-43 would help reduce PTSD,

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RE: WitE 2 - 10/4/2016 8:13:52 PM   
morvael


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Interestingly, being given (rare) leave, didn't reduce PTSD for the Germans. First, the soldiers had to suffer partisan attacks on their way home, then suffer Allied bombing, seeing civilians die (perhaps even some known to them personally), then suffer partisan attacks on their way back.

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RE: WitE 2 - 10/4/2016 8:25:29 PM   
Elijah

 

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The problem the Germans faced entering Barbarossa is they ALREADY were struggling for manpower to both run factories and man their armies. The economy was already 'overheating'. '41 just turned a big problem into a fatal one. Oh, and as for the contention that the Axis blew it by not driving straight to Moscow, I'd be curious to see someone in the game successfully take Moscow (and hold it) while the Soviets still have a powerful army around Gomel...Even if the Germans had taken Moscow, with the now even longer supply chain, the Blizzard, the Siberian reinforcements, and a huge flanking attack from the South, maybe AGC is completely destroyed and not just bloodied. As it was, AGC was only saved in the winter by Soviet incompetence. If the Soviet C&C had been better, the war would already have been all but over in '42.

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RE: WitE 2 - 10/4/2016 8:37:39 PM   
Elijah

 

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Hmm, suddenly I'm reminded of 'Cross of Iron', when Coburn's character would rather return to the front than go home. (He clearly had some 'IP's'). Oh and if anyone here has not seen that movie, I HIGHLY recommend it.

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RE: WitE 2 - 10/5/2016 8:40:21 AM   
No idea

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

For Prep Pts see Post 560 : http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3933956&mpage=19&key=

The rules have recently changed but you get the idea (no pun intended).


Thank you. It sounds like a good system to make "freshness" matter.

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RE: WitE 2 - 10/5/2016 8:47:23 AM   
No idea

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Interestingly, being given (rare) leave, didn't reduce PTSD for the Germans. First, the soldiers had to suffer partisan attacks on their way home, then suffer Allied bombing, seeing civilians die (perhaps even some known to them personally), then suffer partisan attacks on their way back.


I read that the US army first gave some troops leaves at home, but they changedthe policy when they realized that it made the troops no good. Some of them would get into conflict with their "old lives". Some others would become "civilians" again and it would be difficult to make them work as soldiers again. Some would not want to go back to hell. After that, most leaves were given to stay in England, or France, but not to return home.

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RE: WitE 2 - 10/28/2016 3:30:31 AM   
Schmart

 

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And let's not forget that we're also trying to compare a game that can be replayed innumerable times to virtual perfection with historical hindsight, against reality that can be played out only once. I guess in order to really emulate reality, wargames like this could only ever be played once by any one person. You typically only get one try at it with war in real life. That kinda puts a little bit of different pressure on the kinds of decisions you make. There's no way to realistically emulate real-world life, decisions, pressures, and emotions in a game (or the gun at the back of your head as your Commanding General tells you to attack no matter what the predicted (always slightly shady) pre-combat odds of success as calculated by a computer algorithm.

Personally, I've always enjoyed the unpredictability element in games that provide some degree of semi-random (likely/plausible/possible) political/social events that can effect the gameplay, like political revolt, social upheaval, leaders suddenly dying, Allies pulling out, production shortfall due to industry problems, etc. Makes it feel a little more like real-life not knowing exactly what can happen, as opposed to coldly calculated and perfected gaming techniques, knowing your opponent's reinforcement schedules and production beforehand, figuring out how to game the system with mathematical precision (and historical/predictable weather, yeah right!), etc.

Sure, the Germans holding the Volga line through 1943 would have given them a bit of a morale boost (it sure gives me a morale boost in-game!), but who's to say such an extended stay on the Steppes (with the associated partisan war) wouldn't have quickly created a "bring the boys back home" movement from all the mothers and housewives back in Germany? And soon enough, the troops in the field want to go home just as much and morale plummets... The possibility of one simply creates the possibility of much more downstream.

< Message edited by Schmart -- 10/28/2016 3:35:39 AM >

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RE: WitE 2 - 10/28/2016 12:04:40 PM   
wodin


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A fantastic book. Highly recommended.


quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower


quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

This effect is clearly depicted in all diaires of privates from Eastern Front. Everyone has a point at which his psyche is permanently affected by the horrors of war. You need fresh recruits to overcome this, but Germans were forced to rely a lot on recycled manpower, and so it was overall dropping in quality. You gain experience fighting, but also accumulate "insanity points" to borrow a term from some other game. At some point the penalty from the second factor becomes dominant. I don't understand your comments, this is not advice, just an observation that there is long term fatigue (psychical) beside short term one (physical).


And indeed in all armies at all times though no doubt at different levels in different times and different cultures. An absolutely excellent book that describes the problem in a tough Scottish infantry unit on the west front in '44-'45, is 'With the Jocks' by Peter White




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RE: WitE 2 - 10/31/2016 12:21:04 AM   
BletchleyGeek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

I cannot envisage any major changes in WitE2 to the current system as to how MORALE, EXPERIENCE and FATIGUE influence combat and movement.


As an old timer I do keep quite a record of how the games (including WitW in the mix here) have been evolving over the past six years. So I am wondering about the meaning of the above, John. Don't take the comments below as a dig at you guys.

I personally find that Morvael latest changes to the existing WITE combat engine - incremental as they need to be - to be a definite step in the right direction, and frankly, it does look to me that WITE combat engine is fairly superior to the one in WITW at release. Does the above mean that you guys have taken on board Morvael's iteration on Gary's models? If, so that is great news. If not, colour me surprised.

In contrast with others who have over the years criticised the choice of abstractions (Morale/Combat Capability, Experience and Fatigue) I do think the concepts are sound. But the naming of the first needs to be fixed somehow guys, you can at the very least change the labels on the widgets appearing in the user interface. Ewald's suggestions were interesting and go a long way towards understanding how people do perceive WitE/WitW systems: I do think that every of those concepts are represented well in the game (with Fatigue representing well the will to fight, Morale representing Combat Efficiency as you say, and so on) it is not apparent to players the function they perform, so they turn to a "literal" interpretation of their meaning, since the engine offers so little in terms of feedback (i.e. battle AARs, besides a more or less informative list of casualties, could be improved heaps by telling people what effect had morale, experience and fatigue in the process). Also, I do think that some of those are not employed in a way that maximzes their usefulness. For instance, Fatigue should have much more deleterious effects on combat efficiency - not causing attrition for the sake of it, offensive capabilities (as in being able to initiate attacks), and movement. It should be much harder to make it go away, forcing players to manage the "freshness" of their forces actively, by pulling them offline.

Other long-standing issues with the design of the series seem to be locked in for good, even if I see glimmers of hope (i.e. how air operations are handled in a daily basis in WitW, breaking with the curse that the weekly turn structure has been to keep Gary's models of combat and logistics producing sane results). I still think after all these years that the game would be SO much better with

1) Shorter turn structure, having AI functions used for the computer opponent to help with moving forces by defining waypoints and frontages,

2) Making hasty attacks the default and deliberate to require some sort of preparation (that could include stuff like setting maximum fatigue limits on units involved in deliberate attacks, minimum stockpiles on hand, limiting pre-combat MP expenditure and so on), cranking up fatigue and fuel consumption for the former, attrition in the latter (they're set pieces battles and those are always bloody affairs),

3) Making fortification both harder to build up (i.e. maybe requiring fort regions so one has to spend "influence/AP", materiel and men or requiring to have combat units to become "static") and greatly limiting movement through for the attacker if they force a retreat,

4) Make disengaging from enemy contact function as a retreat where attrition and fatigue depends on the firepower of the enemy units in contact,

5) Factoring attacks from multiple directions to produce distinct outcomes at the operational level (shorter engagements, more severe results on the defender such as shattering, etc.) empowering the player and leaving less to randomness,

6) Having routed units to slow down enemy movement, suffer attrition via POW capture / dispersion, and retreat automatically towards supply depots in a more "organic way" (i.e. one hex at a time, for instance),

7) Get rid of the 3-units-per hex limit, more so now that airbases are represented on the map in a different way, keeping in place the existing limits on the amount of force that can be projected via a hexside, and model congestion effects both for operations and supply,

8) Have divisions to be containers of battalions instead of containers of single vehicles and squads as they are now, allowing the combat engine to run on smaller "packets" for shorter time steps, also an opportunity to produce a combat log that humans can parse.

I could keep going and I am pretty sure many here have similar laundry lists... with both big and small items in there. Maybe there's some stuff like the above in the latest versions of WitW, I sadly lost interest on that game after an excruciatingly boring campaign up the Italian peninsula...



< Message edited by Bletchley_Geek -- 10/31/2016 12:27:17 AM >


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RE: WitE 2 - 10/31/2016 9:23:53 AM   
Smirfy

 

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The principle problem for me with both outings was logistics and its relationship with the game. Once a front was broken in the East (or west) it was impossible to reconstitute a new one until the attacker ran out of steam. In both campaigns we have depth of frontages and unit densities (just look at any multiplayer AAR) that were unsupportable in the real world. Fighting a defensive battles to the last were just as damaging in Normandy and Bagration as they were in Barbarossa. In game you are rewarded for for last ditch not an inch defence because 1/ the logistics support a truly unbelievable troop density at the front, 2 One week turns cannot adequately model the periods of intense rout (and massive equipment and personnel loss). When is WitW going on steam?

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RE: WitE 2 - 10/31/2016 11:07:06 AM   
Red Lancer


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@ Bletchley_Geek

Thanks for the post. I will try and answer most of your questions within the leeway that I have (I’m able to give an semi-official slant on where we are – so what I say may be wrong or changed at a later date.)

The first thing to highlight is that the origins of the WitE2 code started when WitW split from the original WitE code. I guess that this was probably 2 years before morvael began his changes. This means that morvael’s changes have had no direct impact on WitE2. This may fill you with horror but many of the changes and bug fixes that morvael has made were never required as the code had already moved on. There is a view that WitW was just WitE in the west and WitE2 will be WitW in the east. Nothing is further from the truth. The games are evolutionary.

Much of my responses question whether it is worth the effort. It is one thing to ask for a change and yet another to deliver it. Many changes are not simple to deliver as decisions on the structure of the code made a decade ago present serious challenges now. What might appear simple takes many hours reworking the entire game data structure. Last night I asked Pavel to make a change to the colour coding of text in the editor. I hope it’s simple and it will make my life much easier but every second he spends doing it (if he does) is a second not spent working on the code elsewhere.

I agree in part with your comments on morale, fatigue and experience. This is an area in flux and we may yet change the term morale. I disagree on providing a complete breakdown on how the factors interplay. For one I think the effort is too much and secondly I think it runs counter to the nature of warfare. I think you might be surprised how much fatigue does play a role in the combat iteration of the combat engine and you can already see this with WitW. It is now supplemented by the combat preparation rules and of course sufficient supply is also a vital factor.

As I said earlier WitE2 is evolutionary. Even with retaining some of the same key components, development takes a number of years. Much is gained by utilising experience from previous work and understanding how changing some of the key inputs work. Another key factor is delivering a game with a top quality AI. Many players don’t want to PBEM. The more vocal members of the community are PBEM players and that can lead forum readers to a skewed view on where priorities lie.

In response to your questions:

1) We won’t be moving away from 1 week turns but we are doing all we can to reduce the burden on the player. The creation of ‘Air Divisions’ is all about simplifying the control of multiple air groups.
2) I would argue Hasty Attacks are already the default. The combat engine in WitE2 is producing a very different game to WitE.
3) Already the case – and we introduced Hex Combat Delay in WitW.
4) I presume you mean when units are next to each other in a hex and not as part of the combat routine. ZOC costs already provide a penalty. It is also difficult at this scale to do something like this. Is it worth the effort?
5) This is not valid at a game of this scale and probably impossible to teach the AI.
6) The retreat code is already horrendously complex. I question whether we really need more now we have combat delay.
7) This has been discussed at length and I don’t know what the final answer will be. I think we would like to do it but the cost/benefits on development and game play are not as clear cut as you may think.
8) The game is essentially at the Divisional level. I question what this is actually going to add to the gameplay. We have only 32 slots per TOE so a change of this magnitude would take many months of development. That doesn’t just mean the code but also redoing all the hundreds of TOEs.

Finally you say you lost interest in WitW because the ‘Italian Campaign’ was boring. Well it was historically I’m afraid. I’m not sure whether to take that as a criticism or a compliment.


_____________________________

John
WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

(in reply to Smirfy)
Post #: 1107
RE: WitE 2 - 10/31/2016 3:47:13 PM   
BletchleyGeek


Posts: 4268
Joined: 11/26/2009
From: Living in the fair city of Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

@ Bletchley_Geek

Thanks for the post. I will try and answer most of your questions within the leeway that I have (I’m able to give an semi-official slant on where we are – so what I say may be wrong or changed at a later date.)


The forums software has eaten up my answer to your answer twice already... let's see if I am more lucky with the third attempt.

Thanks for your answers, I appreciate the time you took to write it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer
The first thing to highlight is that the origins of the WitE2 code started when WitW split from the original WitE code. I guess that this was probably 2 years before morvael began his changes. This means that morvael’s changes have had no direct impact on WitE2. This may fill you with horror but many of the changes and bug fixes that morvael has made were never required as the code had already moved on. There is a view that WitW was just WitE in the west and WitE2 will be WitW in the east. Nothing is further from the truth. The games are evolutionary.


I am not horrified, but still surprised. Expecting that Morvael's code can be patched "right away" into the WITE 2 codebase is certainly unrealistic. On the other hand, I want to believe that the effects of the changes made in the combat engine of WITE over the past two years are taken on board to inform the development of the titles currently under development. After all, Morvael's revision has been "tested" by probably 100 times more people than WITE2 has beta testers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer
Much of my responses question whether it is worth the effort. It is one thing to ask for a change and yet another to deliver it. Many changes are not simple to deliver as decisions on the structure of the code made a decade ago present serious challenges now. What might appear simple takes many hours reworking the entire game data structure. Last night I asked Pavel to make a change to the colour coding of text in the editor. I hope it’s simple and it will make my life much easier but every second he spends doing it (if he does) is a second not spent working on the code elsewhere.


I concur that having Pavel doing that is a waste of his time. What wouldn't be a waste of his time would be to ask having trivial, cosmetic settings such as the one you mention exposed via configuration files read at startup, so non-programmers can modify them. Nowadays companies like Firaxis make public huge swathes of their UI code for people to customize: see the recent issues with scrolling being hardcoded in the latest iteration of Civilization, and how one can "fix" them by modifying the UI code themselves. 2by3 isn't Firaxis, but a more humble goal and an easy win could be to have those configuration files in ini, json or yaml format for people without access to the source code to tweak settings.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer
I agree in part with your comments on morale, fatigue and experience. This is an area in flux and we may yet change the term morale. I disagree on providing a complete breakdown on how the factors interplay. For one I think the effort is too much and secondly I think it runs counter to the nature of warfare. I think you might be surprised how much fatigue does play a role in the combat iteration of the combat engine and you can already see this with WitW. It is now supplemented by the combat preparation rules and of course sufficient supply is also a vital factor.


Twenty years ago I played the heck out of this strategy game. It wasn't the deepest of war games, nor the one with the most moving parts. But I remember fondly the way it described how battles played out, using concise sentences, almost a lyrical - and sometimes comical - understatement of the events simulated by the game. For instance, a particularly bad combination of "maneuver" (frontal attack, flanking attack, ambush, etc.) and terrain/weather would be described by a sentence like "your heavy infantry had trouble negotiating the thorny brambles while flanking the enemy, who saw us coming from miles away" or something to that effect. What was the specific way it affected the outcome of the battle (that is, either it was a win, a draw or a loss, and how many casualties were suffered for each of the 6 different TOE slots available in combat units in that game)? Who knows, and who cares really if the combat power of the enemy militia tripled or my heavies strength halved. King of the Dragon Pass also used similar devices to great effect.

What I meant is that WITE and WITW are very good at showing people numbers, and very bad at conveying meaningful information about how combat (or other aspects of the game such as logistics) play out. I do appreciate the more verbose situation logs of Morvael too, I just hope he had the same flair for the whimsical that the MEPBM writers had. The point is that one wants to make sure that the most important factors following from the gameplay (i.e. stuff the player can affect in some manner) that affected the outcome of the event (battles, for instance) are clearly spelled out. Whether they had a positive or negative impact is useful, but that info will be already ambiguous. I think that is a low tech, and potentially more effective approach than having people poring over sequences of numbers that change dramatically between patches or runs of the game as the seed of the RNG changes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer
As I said earlier WitE2 is evolutionary. Even with retaining some of the same key components, development takes a number of years. Much is gained by utilising experience from previous work and understanding how changing some of the key inputs work. Another key factor is delivering a game with a top quality AI. Many players don’t want to PBEM. The more vocal members of the community are PBEM players and that can lead forum readers to a skewed view on where priorities lie.


I am pretty sure that AI only players do like as well that the AI plays with the same rules they do. Striving for an AI that depends less on scripting and more on dynamically choosing goals on the basis of victory conditions and the current situation, and develop operational plans to achieve them would definitely put something new on the table.

Some notorious PBEM only players have tried - for years - to lobby the games development with varying degrees of success. In any case, other than the occasional virtual columns of smoke rising from the forums, I think that I enjoy more reading and laughing about the drama that ensues some times than I feel outraged by the juvenile antics that some supposedly grown up adults engage in while on the Internet.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer
In response to your questions:


Thanks for taking the time to go over them!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer
1) We won’t be moving away from 1 week turns but we are doing all we can to reduce the burden on the player. The creation of ‘Air Divisions’ is all about simplifying the control of multiple air groups.


Okay, I put this one first because I knew it was the one which isn't going to happen any time soon.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer
2) I would argue Hasty Attacks are already the default. The combat engine in WitE2 is producing a very different game to WitE.


About time to start a developer's blog of sorts?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer
3) Already the case – and we introduced Hex Combat Delay in WitW.


Did you already go that way with fortifications? When did that happen? Is Hex Combat delay related to the duration, intensity and existing defensive works (i.e. minefields).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer
4) I presume you mean when units are next to each other in a hex and not as part of the combat routine. ZOC costs already provide a penalty. It is also difficult at this scale to do something like this. Is it worth the effort?


Computer wargames where this has ever mattered was in John Tiller's Panzer Campaigns where leaving ZOCs was impossible because of massive costs unless the enemy units were dislodged (which required forward planning but quite sound actually) or Norm Koger's TOAW "active disengagement" rules (which were a bit arbitrary, but worked). How big were those "features"? Not very big, but certainly avoided divisions (motorized or not) from waltzing away like the first ballerina of the Bolshoi.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer
5) This is not valid at a game of this scale and probably impossible to teach the AI.


Hmmm, I do not understand either of the answer to this one. What is wrong with forcing the enemy to defend over an extended frontage? Say the defender "force" is 1, if it has to cover the perimeter corresponding to two or three hexsides. Then there needs to be some "stretching" of a limited resource (combat power). That can't be good for the defender, I find hard to think of cases where the defender is guaranteed to be able to withdraw and avoid being defeated in detail... This is an old argument, about which I had mixed feelings five years ago, and now I think the game cries for it.

When you say "impossible to teach" you mean "hard to get coded", right?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer
6) The retreat code is already horrendously complex. I question whether we really need more now we have combat delay.


Let me put it in another way.

The current way you portray the collapse of command, control and discipline of combat units in trying circumstances, strikes me as horrendously unrealistic, as it hopelessly warps the relationships between time and space in an operational context. It also forces you guys to come up with more or less arbitrary rules to avoid unrealistic, hopelessly warped strategic outcomes, that result in hugely complicated code made up of intricately nested conditional statements which are exceedingly hard to debug and maintain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer
7) This has been discussed at length and I don’t know what the final answer will be. I think we would like to do it but the cost/benefits on development and game play are not as clear cut as you may think.


I tend to think that the less arbitrary the rules, the happier the player tends to be and the less undesired trickle down effects in the design of the game appear. That may require an UI with an scrollable section on the right-hand pane too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer
8) The game is essentially at the Divisional level. I question what this is actually going to add to the gameplay. We have only 32 slots per TOE so a change of this magnitude would take many months of development. That doesn’t just mean the code but also redoing all the hundreds of TOEs.


To the gameplay, not much. It is meant to provide with structure to the combat engine (this structure dictated by the typical unit of maneuver at the operational level, which I consider the battalion or battalion-equivalent to be in World War II) so you can simulate better a dynamic process like that of combat between divisions and corps over frontages of 10 to 30 kilometers and extended periods of time (days). Also, you can generate a narrative as you go around an operational war game set on World War II, without resorting to gimmicks like painting the OKH as a raucous establishment more chaotic than a saloon in Deadwood, South Dakota in the late 1870s. Which could be a fair comment about how things played out, but another discussion

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer
Finally you say you lost interest in WitW because the ‘Italian Campaign’ was boring. Well it was historically I’m afraid. I’m not sure whether to take that as a criticism or a compliment.


I only play hotseat since a very long time ago. So that one was self-inflicted in two different ways: I chose to play the part of Sysyphus and against a quite determined opponent too

Edit: muddled sentences, I was a bit exasperated with the forums.

< Message edited by Bletchley_Geek -- 10/31/2016 8:58:39 PM >


_____________________________

Wite2 - Lead Tester

(in reply to Red Lancer)
Post #: 1108
RE: WitE 2 - 10/31/2016 4:12:46 PM   
Red Lancer


Posts: 4052
Joined: 11/16/2005
From: UK
Status: offline
Well that is some comeback.

Time is short at my end (tea break). I think I have two immediate ripostes. I suggest you dust off WitW and look at the latest version, probably avoiding Italy! Things have moved on since release.

On the subject of morvael's changes because the code is so complex and different there is no easy read across. There isn't anyone who has the detailed understanding of both sets of code and importantly the time to make a line by line comparison.

_____________________________

John
WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

(in reply to BletchleyGeek)
Post #: 1109
RE: WitE 2 - 10/31/2016 5:08:59 PM   
No idea

 

Posts: 482
Joined: 6/24/2011
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

I cannot envisage any major changes in WitE2 to the current system as to how MORALE, EXPERIENCE and FATIGUE influence combat and movement.



5) Factoring attacks from multiple directions to produce distinct outcomes at the operational level (shorter engagements, more severe results on the defender such as shattering, etc.) empowering the player and leaving less to randomness,





This is something I have never understood. It shouldnt be the same being attacked from a single direction, that being attacked by multiple ones. Resources should be far more strechted if you are attacked from multiple directions. Thus, you should have bigger problems defeating the attack of two different divisions from two different directions than the attack of those two divisions from a single direction. Thisis especially true if you are attacked from opposite directions. Big military units were not pourcopines, but peackoks. The front part was the though part, the rest was all soft underbelly.

(in reply to BletchleyGeek)
Post #: 1110
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