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Redrawing Red Storm maps - 9/17/2015 10:51:13 AM   
tebeinteresno


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I decided to try to redraw the maps of Red Storm campaign.
I noticed that the map heights in some places very much does not match, and then noticed that some maps does not match the scale of 1 hex = 500m

So, here's what at this moment.
I took a segment of a topographic map with the roads in the area of 40x40 km, then I drew hexgrid and scaled topomap to 1 hex = 500m
I have outlined the elevation levels and has not yet proceeded to draw the roads, forests, cities, and all of other things.
So far, only the elevation levels.


This is the area around Nordheim,
you know ? )

Here is the map in full size https://yadi.sk/i/UziMDRhij9MEe
You can check yourself as a change elevation in this region.

This large map includes the first three maps of the campaign, so that with one shot I'm killing three birds)
The elevation colors are far from the final so there is still a lot of work
Post #: 1
RE: Redrawing Red Storm maps - 9/17/2015 10:56:05 AM   
tebeinteresno


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Here's how to be carved out the first three maps
https://yadi.sk/i/Dr-M225Dj9MeE

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RE: Redrawing Red Storm maps - 9/17/2015 11:45:21 AM   
kipanderson

 

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tebeinteresno, hi,

Yup.. l like the look :).

The more quality maps to choose from the better.

Thanks..
All the best,
Kip.

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RE: Redrawing Red Storm maps - 9/17/2015 12:24:36 PM   
tebeinteresno


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kipanderson

tebeinteresno, hi,

Yup.. l like the look :).

The more quality maps to choose from the better.

Thanks..
All the best,
Kip.



Thanks!

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Post #: 4
RE: Redrawing Red Storm maps - 9/17/2015 12:32:54 PM   
tebeinteresno


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Actually, I began to suspect some inconsistencies in the map when I decided to see a real area in Google maps.
For example
Here is a hill at SouthWest over Nordheim. This hill hides part of the Sondheim



Then I thought: "hmm, good tactical hiding place"
But I could not find this hill on the map in the game
More precisely, I have found, but he was in another place, a little further north.



Maybe it's to improve the gameplay on the map? Tactical balance?
But I decided to see how the map would look like with a very real relief.


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RE: Redrawing Red Storm maps - 9/17/2015 12:43:22 PM   
tebeinteresno


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Then I decided to check the distance and was surprised that there hex is not equal to 500 meters





Maybe my calculations wrong and I misunderstand something?

< Message edited by tebeinteresno -- 9/17/2015 1:47:14 PM >

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RE: Redrawing Red Storm maps - 9/17/2015 1:02:41 PM   
CapnDarwin


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Our maps are as close to the terrain on the Google maps. To fit the hex map style, some elements get moved or adjusted for the game engine to work. Hills are set by those features deemed significant and depending on where the level cutoff falls. Distances are close as well. Your blue line above should be 2500m and both lines are not sitting in the same locations so there is delta distance error there as well.

William can talk more to the process used, but the maps in game are set to a 500m hex scale based on the data used.

Definitely do maps based on your interpretation of map data. The game was built to allow folks to customize things to their own taste.

_____________________________

Work on Southern Storm continues. Our new website is live! Please check it out.

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

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RE: Redrawing Red Storm maps - 9/17/2015 2:03:03 PM   
tebeinteresno


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I'm not saying that somewhere something is done badly.
Сonversely!
Playing these maps is very interesting!
And some of the landscape creates an impression that is created special for this scenario, and some hills seemed designed for fortifications. )
Just when I began to check the height and distance, I have a feeling I may do something wrong calculation?

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RE: Redrawing Red Storm maps - 9/17/2015 2:24:29 PM   
Mad Russian


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Elevations are an art not a science on our maps. I laid the Google Earth maps on the hex grid and transferred one to the other. What I did not do was to worry about a 10mm difference in height with the color scale we used. I determined what the military significant terrain was and made sure that was put forth on the maps. What I think you are going to continue to find, as this has already been brought out in another of your threads, is that there aren't enough colors to show the different elevations.

You also get to make some artist prerogative at times. Sometimes a village doesn't cover a 500 meter area. Do you put it on the map or leave it off? Does a small elevation in height determine another elevation change or not? Those are the kinds of things you as the map maker get to decide.

My hand drawn maps won't be as accurate to the millimeter as your satphoto maps I'm sure.

Whatever you come up with I'm sure there will be those that like them. The nice thing about map making is that the different perspectives give gamers lots of choices in the end.

Good Hunting.

MR

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 9/17/2015 3:26:37 PM >


_____________________________

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Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to tebeinteresno)
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RE: Redrawing Red Storm maps - 9/17/2015 3:40:18 PM   
tebeinteresno


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

Elevations are an art not a science on our maps. I laid the Google Earth maps on the hex grid and transferred one to the other. What I did not do was to worry about a 10mm difference in height with the color scale we used. I determined what the military significant terrain was and made sure that was put forth on the maps. What I think you are going to continue to find, as this has already been brought out in another of your threads, is that there aren't enough colors to show the different elevations.

You also get to make some artist prerogative at times. Sometimes a village doesn't cover a 500 meter area. Do you put it on the map or leave it off? Does a small elevation in height determine another elevation change or not? Those are the kinds of things you as the map maker get to decide.

My hand drawn maps won't be as accurate to the millimeter as your satphoto maps I'm sure.

Whatever you come up with I'm sure there will be those that like them. The nice thing about map making is that the different perspectives give gamers lots of choices in the end.

Good Hunting.

MR


Сertainly in the game elevation levels and map details carry carry three parts: the gameplay, informative and visual part, and the balance between them is the very purpose of art of drawing maps.

Regarding the choice of "hills" and display the villages appear to seriously look for them on the map.
If the village is really small, I do not think it makes sense to display, although you can draw several options for residential areas, depending on the population density. Technically, it will have the same residential areas, but if in the future is entered in the grading of their size, they can be edited without any problems.

I just wanted to make a map for locals and those who have already been there someday.
Well, you know phrases like "oh, I know this hill!" or "Oh, I've been in the ravine")

< Message edited by tebeinteresno -- 9/17/2015 4:44:51 PM >

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RE: Redrawing Red Storm maps - 9/17/2015 9:51:43 PM   
WildCatNL


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Here's a preview of what we are working towards for Southern Storm - it's the map used by Cap Darwin and Rob for the Origins 2015 event. You might like it...

What you see is, from top to bottom:
- OpenStreetMap topo map of Plochingen (2015 data) with a 1989 Shell road atlas insert displaying the old trajectory of the B10 (which ran below the Fils stream for longer than today's B10)
- our 500m hex rendition of the 1989 Plochingen in 'topo' look.
- our 500m hex rendition of 1989 Plochingen in traditional hex look
IMO, it shows nicely how close we get to the real terrain and how we abstract to 500m hexes (notably the Neckar river, removal of tertiary roads, removal of ditches which aren't an obstacle to military vehicles).

Note that I'm not convinced working from GIS data results in better maps than Steve's approach of 'eyeballing' the Google maps with his military background. I do happen to be more productive starting from GIS data, and it allows for rapid prototyping of a new piece of terrain, and creating multiple looks.

William

p.s. and, yes, I've used one of my hex maps for navigation during my past holidays. Didn't actually have to use it, since I accidentally memorized the terrain while creating the map.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

OTS "garden boy"

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RE: Redrawing Red Storm maps - 9/18/2015 12:27:43 AM   
Stimpak


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Really digging how those hills are easier to see; sometimes I can mistake elevations if I'm playing in a bad light

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RE: Redrawing Red Storm maps - 9/18/2015 9:17:23 AM   
tebeinteresno


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quote:

ORIGINAL: W1ll14m

Here's a preview of what we are working towards for Southern Storm - it's the map used by Cap Darwin and Rob for the Origins 2015 event. You might like it...

What you see is, from top to bottom:
- OpenStreetMap topo map of Plochingen (2015 data) with a 1989 Shell road atlas insert displaying the old trajectory of the B10 (which ran below the Fils stream for longer than today's B10)
- our 500m hex rendition of the 1989 Plochingen in 'topo' look.
- our 500m hex rendition of 1989 Plochingen in traditional hex look
IMO, it shows nicely how close we get to the real terrain and how we abstract to 500m hexes (notably the Neckar river, removal of tertiary roads, removal of ditches which aren't an obstacle to military vehicles).

Note that I'm not convinced working from GIS data results in better maps than Steve's approach of 'eyeballing' the Google maps with his military background. I do happen to be more productive starting from GIS data, and it allows for rapid prototyping of a new piece of terrain, and creating multiple looks.

William

p.s. and, yes, I've used one of my hex maps for navigation during my past holidays. Didn't actually have to use it, since I accidentally memorized the terrain while creating the map.





WHOA! Awesome and very clean work
Great job!
Topo map so clean and easy to understand.
but it seems to me, and there does not appear the elevation levels used in the game?
Will the choice of which map to display? I think it's pretty convenient to see the battlefield on the "photorealistic map" and planning on topographic (with all the navigation arrows and notes).

So now I have a couple questions:
— How about Industrial areas?In the north west of the Plochingen you can see the industrial zone, perhaps even a small port. It may be added in the future such additional graduation? For such zones are sometimes strategically important, and shelter in these areas are a little different from the shelter in residential areas.
— Whether you choose the width of the river? Some rivers are very significant in width, and some are so narrow that tanks or other vehicle are moving in the ford.
Just when I looked at the card and checks prior to the reality, it seems that some of the rivers on the map is too wide.
I understand that, technically, the game has only one type of the river, and one type of bridges, but sometimes I thought that it would be more realistic if the added gradation width of the rivers. Just imagine:
- Narrow streams can pass without building bridges, but with a fairly large delay in the movement, in this case the presence of the bridge on the road passing through the stream is not so important, but if it is not destroyed, the army can drive on the road without delay.
- Wider river passes just over the bridge and require guidance pontoon bridges or amphibious vehicles.
- Very wide river passes only with a very long bridge (more 1-2 Hex)
Also, you can add types of bridges: a small wood, stone, huge steel (almost impossible to repair them or maybe for a long time between battles)
I realize that everything I propose adding lines of code in the engine, but in this case, you can add some fun strategy game. (though perhaps you have all of this going to do)
— Well, I was still interested in shading of elevation levels. Since the main action takes in the Northern Hemisphere, it would be logical to see the lighting on the south side.
I understand that the current shading fron NW is essential for the style of the game, but I'll try to cover all the SW.
— Is there somewhere online version of the atlas roads for 1989?

Anyway. Great job guys!

(in reply to WildCatNL)
Post #: 13
RE: Redrawing Red Storm maps - 9/18/2015 9:42:45 AM   
battlerbritain

 

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William,

That OSM map looks great - how did you get it to display like that?

I've used the Hesse shapefile data so far.

I've just tried using the Hesse OSM data and it seems to take forever to build anything and there's a million 'layers' in the data, none of which seem to come out like that

Cheers,

B

Update: Found it! Add the Tile Map Scale plugin and add the osm_landscape.xml dataset.

< Message edited by battlerbritain -- 9/18/2015 12:48:52 PM >

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RE: Redrawing Red Storm maps - 9/18/2015 10:58:56 AM   
tebeinteresno


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Here is another elevation coloring with 200-900m



full map https://yadi.sk/i/Gw967mjhjAbc2

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RE: Redrawing Red Storm maps - 9/18/2015 11:24:36 AM   
tebeinteresno


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Here the question:
With the release of Southern Storm, will Red Storm support levels 1-10th elevation levels too?
Or it will remain as now?

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RE: Redrawing Red Storm maps - 9/18/2015 12:47:01 PM   
CapnDarwin


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The current Red Storm engine supports 10 levels now in the values editor. You should be good to go.

_____________________________

Work on Southern Storm continues. Our new website is live! Please check it out.

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

(in reply to tebeinteresno)
Post #: 17
RE: Redrawing Red Storm maps - 9/19/2015 6:11:13 AM   
MikeAP

 

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That looks amazing. You are damn talented!

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RE: Redrawing Red Storm maps - 9/21/2015 1:51:51 PM   
tebeinteresno


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Here is drawn a main roads (minor road later)



And some test of topographic map
contour lines are made and based on current hexmap (that she was based on a real map)



Full maps you can see here https://yadi.sk/i/fZMOd7q6jDwtn
and here topomap https://yadi.sk/i/D0sUyqkujDwve

< Message edited by tebeinteresno -- 9/21/2015 2:59:44 PM >

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RE: Redrawing Red Storm maps - 9/21/2015 9:37:33 PM   
WildCatNL


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tebeinteresno

Here is drawn a main roads (minor road later)

And some test of topographic map
contour lines are made and based on current hexmap (that she was based on a real map)

Full maps you can see here https://yadi.sk/i/fZMOd7q6jDwtn
and here topomap https://yadi.sk/i/D0sUyqkujDwve


Looking good! Which area is this?
Does the area have water ways? They cause me the most pain (having to shift towns and roads in order to make them align with hex edges).

William


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RE: Redrawing Red Storm maps - 9/22/2015 6:25:56 AM   
tebeinteresno


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quote:

ORIGINAL: W1ll14m

Looking good! Which area is this?
Does the area have water ways? They cause me the most pain (having to shift towns and roads in order to make them align with hex edges).

William



Its in South East from Fulda. Area of first 3 maps in Red Storm campaigns.
More remaked roads and rivers/lakes on next step! )

< Message edited by tebeinteresno -- 9/22/2015 7:28:07 AM >

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RE: Redrawing Red Storm maps - 9/22/2015 12:25:56 PM   
tebeinteresno


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just redrawed and added more roads and rivers





true color
https://yadi.sk/i/fZMOd7q6jDwtn
contour
https://yadi.sk/i/D0sUyqkujDwve

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RE: Redrawing Red Storm maps - 9/24/2015 7:10:24 PM   
WildCatNL


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tebeinteresno

Its in South East from Fulda. Area of first 3 maps in Red Storm campaigns.
More remaked roads and rivers/lakes on next step! )


Looks good. I really like the shape of the minor rivers.

Wrt the roads, in case you like to approximate the late 1980's situation, you need to drop the A71 highway since it wasn't built until the late 1990's, and resurrect part of the primary road B19.
See (although this leaves still a lot to guess):
- https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesautobahn_71
- http://www.autobahnatlas-online.de/Autobahnkarte1990.pdf
- https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesstra%C3%9Fe_19

William

_____________________________

OTS "garden boy"

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RE: Redrawing Red Storm maps - 9/24/2015 9:40:53 PM   
tebeinteresno


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quote:

ORIGINAL: W1ll14m

Looks good. I really like the shape of the minor rivers.

Wrt the roads, in case you like to approximate the late 1980's situation, you need to drop the A71 highway since it wasn't built until the late 1990's, and resurrect part of the primary road B19.
See (although this leaves still a lot to guess):
- https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesautobahn_71
- http://www.autobahnatlas-online.de/Autobahnkarte1990.pdf
- https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesstra%C3%9Fe_19

William


Oh tnx!
Fixed it!

Here is forest step.



First of all, I would like to draw the shapes of forests, and then go adding details.
But before that, I would like to place all settlements on the map (the hardest part). I have a couple of methods as it can be solved, but still, both not very pleasing to me)
Only then add fields and parts of trees.
And then I can do the signatures and names.

full map here https://yadi.sk/i/8xfb_LGrjJcxq
I have not yet made the north west side, I decided to do it after villages

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RE: Redrawing Red Storm maps - 9/25/2015 9:18:34 PM   
WildCatNL


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Cool forest texture. And elevation has become a lot easier to see now, due to the shading and the elevation coloring of the forests.

Wrt shading: I've been using the 'traditional' NW sun position, which, although not realistic, is pretty much what people are used/trained to read in other maps. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrain_cartography#Shaded_relief

My work sequence creating a map is elevation, rivers, highways, streams, other roads & rail-roads, towns, forests, fields, labels.

William

_____________________________

OTS "garden boy"

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RE: Redrawing Red Storm maps - 9/25/2015 9:55:45 PM   
tebeinteresno


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Thanks!

I didn't know about that shading. Thanks!
I decided to make a realistic shading like on northern hemisphere, but NW shading can be done on a topographic map (convert one into the other is not so difficult).

I want to add icons railway stations and churches to give some more mapstyle, for those who want to create a scenario for example: "to complete the mission you need to keep the 4 railway stations"
That icons used on this millitary maps http://loadmap.net/en
Especially the Russian language is my native language, so, why not? )

< Message edited by tebeinteresno -- 9/25/2015 10:59:22 PM >

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Post #: 26
RE: Redrawing Red Storm maps - 9/26/2015 8:30:51 AM   
WildCatNL


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tebeinteresno
That icons used on this millitary maps http://loadmap.net/en
Especially the Russian language is my native language, so, why not? )


Thanks for the loadmap.net pointer. The maps look to originate from the 1980's (it doesn't have the highway A71 we discussed), and a good source t work from. Since you're fluent in Russian, can you tell me from when exactly these the maps are?

William

_____________________________

OTS "garden boy"

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Post #: 27
RE: Redrawing Red Storm maps - 9/27/2015 9:01:43 AM   
tebeinteresno


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quote:

ORIGINAL: W1ll14m

Thanks for the loadmap.net pointer. The maps look to originate from the 1980's (it doesn't have the highway A71 we discussed), and a good source t work from. Since you're fluent in Russian, can you tell me from when exactly these the maps are?

William


These maps definitely came from the Soviet period. At least, the separation of East and West Germany says that the Soviet Union was still alive.

I tried to look for some sources about date the creation of maps. Most of them agreed for the period on 1980s, but not later. )
Here, for example, Soviet map of Eastern Europe since the 1940
http://retromap.ru/mapster.php#left=1419406&right=0020090&zoom=10&lat=50.481103&lng=10.069999&lang=ru


< Message edited by tebeinteresno -- 9/27/2015 10:46:23 AM >

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RE: Redrawing Red Storm maps - 10/5/2015 10:29:14 AM   
tebeinteresno


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Finally got around to the map.
Towns and forests have been complished.
Next step: more details and labels



Full map: https://yadi.sk/i/Jvh3mEWMjXA3a

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Post #: 29
RE: Redrawing Red Storm maps - 10/5/2015 10:59:24 AM   
battlerbritain

 

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Looking good tebe.

What are you using to draw this?

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