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Engineers and fortification reduction

 
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Engineers and fortification reduction - 9/14/2015 2:40:29 PM   
chaos45

 

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Per Rules:


"(15.3.2.4) Fort Level Reduction in Combat

Fort levels can be reduced during combat if the attacking force contains engineer ground elements (e.g. German Pioneer, Soviet Sapper; any type Engineer or Mech-Engineer ground elements) participating in the battle. This reduction can be fractional, i.e. it doesn't have to reduce a fort by one entire level, and it can just reduce a part of one level.

Engineer values are divided by the fort level when calculating their ability to reduce fort levels in combat. Fort level reduction caused by engineers can result in the reduction of the final defending modified combat value"

So according to the rules sappers/engineer squad types can reduce fortification effects during a battle for the final CV.

The only patch note on the above rule is V1.08.00- Engineer formula reworked to take morale, experience, and ammo level into account. Previously only fatigue counted.

Im guessing its because soviet morale and experience is so low is why Soviet Sappers dont seem to do jack all to fortifications compared to German Engineers.

Also seems Germans engineers get double credit in knocking down forts since both Morale and experience are taken into account.

Perhaps only Experience should be taken into account??? otherwise high morale units get a double bonus at fortification reduction basically....and this was 1.08 version change.

Or is it working as intended to where mainly only Germans get to reduce fortification CV?

The reason I bring this up is I know at least one attack where the Germans were barely Lvl 1 fortified and I attacked with something like 20 regiments of Soviet sappers all around 50 morale/exp and lost 1.8:1 and got almost no fortification reduction on the Germans for final CV calculations.

From reading the rules it would seem that many regiments of sappers should easily eliminate the Fortification value on final CV, as its supposedly modified by the fortification level so lower levels of fortificaitons more easily eliminated for final CV odds.

< Message edited by chaos45 -- 9/14/2015 3:46:16 PM >
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RE: Engineers and fortification reduction - 9/15/2015 6:42:14 AM   
morvael


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I believe this is undocumented:
- if final odds are between 1.50 and 1.99 (for the attacker), then fort level is reduced by 1 full level, and again by 0.5 of engineer value.
- if final odds are between 1.00 and 1.49 (for the attacker), then fort level is reduced by 0.25 of engineer value.

edit: the reduction mentioned in manual happens just before final odds are calculated, these two happen after.

Do you have a save with such Sapper attack prepared?

< Message edited by morvael -- 9/15/2015 7:44:03 AM >

(in reply to chaos45)
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RE: Engineers and fortification reduction - 9/15/2015 11:53:26 AM   
chaos45

 

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Hmm didnt notice that happen in this particular battle. As the fort level was the same for the very next fight, and pretty sure the standing fort level was the only reason the attack failed.

Was server game so no save files on my computer will try to watch battles against fortifications more closely in the future to see if I notice the above. Good information to know though.

(in reply to morvael)
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RE: Engineers and fortification reduction - 9/15/2015 12:31:17 PM   
morvael


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.05 will show partial fort level drops as well, so it will be some form of consolation if the attack fails. It should drop by at least 2% in most attacks.

< Message edited by morvael -- 9/15/2015 1:33:48 PM >

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RE: Engineers and fortification reduction - 9/16/2015 5:44:35 AM   
Gabriel B.

 

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Organic engenier support gets reduced for soviet divisions (18 squads ) .
adding one separate sapper regiment and a sapper batalion to a soviet army basicly just compensates the divisions TOE upgrade.

< Message edited by Gabriel B. -- 9/16/2015 6:46:23 AM >

(in reply to morvael)
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RE: Engineers and fortification reduction - 9/16/2015 8:01:26 AM   
morvael


Posts: 11753
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From: Poland
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I found two bugs:
- Scouting attacks were resolved at different odds than shown.
- Scouting attacks ending in the 1.5-1.99 range (invisible) were able to remove 1 fort level.

I guess Germans with their high initiative had more scouting attacks, thus were able to remove more forts than Soviets this way.

Other than that I don't see radical differences in engineer strength on .05. Sure Germans are better, but Soviets are more numerous. A stack of 3 corps with engineers will always trump a lone div with a pioneer battalion. And I see that impact of artillery and engineers on fort removal is minimal, between 2% and 10% are removed per battle. If one wants to remove a fort it's best to capture the hex :), second best thing is to get in the 1.50-1.99 odds range in case of failed battle, to get 1 full level removal (equivalent of 50 engineer value).

(in reply to Gabriel B.)
Post #: 6
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