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Tank losses - 9/1/2015 5:39:00 PM   
governato

 

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In designing a scenario I am trying to increase the tank/AFV losses due to infantry (flamethrowers, mines, explosives,
falling into a ditch, engine exploding, acts of God etc etc :)) Is decreasing the DF (not the `DF value', I am aware of the difference) in the editor the way to go? Or does the engine override the value in the editor and just uses DF=5+armor/10 formula as mentioned by Bob Cross in one of his posts?

Any other suggestions?
Post #: 1
RE: Tank losses - 9/1/2015 6:22:05 PM   
Lobster


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A vehicle reliability setting is something that people have asked for before. I would wager the Second Coming will happen first.

As for combat losses, maybe you could increase the AT value of infantry, etc. As for mines, I don't think the game has any. It should but I have never seen any mention of them.

_____________________________

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"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

(in reply to governato)
Post #: 2
RE: Tank losses - 9/1/2015 8:54:21 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

A vehicle reliability setting is something that people have asked for before. I would wager the Second Coming will happen first.

As for combat losses, maybe you could increase the AT value of infantry, etc. As for mines, I don't think the game has any. It should but I have never seen any mention of them.

Large minefields can be 'simulated' by the contermination hex; but they can't be cleared of course.

Klink, Oberst

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(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 3
RE: Tank losses - 9/1/2015 9:13:38 PM   
governato

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

A vehicle reliability setting is something that people have asked for before. I would wager the Second Coming will happen first.

As for combat losses, maybe you could increase the AT value of infantry, etc. As for mines, I don't think the game has any. It should but I have never seen any mention of them.


Altering the DF figure 'd achieve something close to that, IF that is possible by the engine. Has anybody tried? I am likely going to set up
a little test scenario to try it.

...where is Bob Cross when you need him ;)

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 4
RE: Tank losses - 9/1/2015 11:45:59 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: governato


In designing a scenario I am trying to increase the tank/AFV losses due to infantry (flamethrowers, mines, explosives,
falling into a ditch, engine exploding, acts of God etc etc :)) Is decreasing the DF (not the `DF value', I am aware of the difference) in the editor the way to go? Or does the engine override the value in the editor and just uses DF=5+armor/10 formula as mentioned by Bob Cross in one of his posts?


You're decreasing the "DF" but not the "DF value"? I'm not sure what that means.

Regardless, the DF for armored equipment is set by the 5+armor/10 formula found in my "How to edit the equipment database" article in the Manuals folder. So the armor value sets the DF for armored equipment. The DF value on the BioED page 1 determines the equipment's weight, not any strength.

quote:

Any other suggestions?


Increase the infantry AT values. That's what I do in late war scenarios for front-line infantry that should have close assault ability.

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(in reply to governato)
Post #: 5
RE: Tank losses - 9/1/2015 11:48:33 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: governato


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

A vehicle reliability setting is something that people have asked for before. I would wager the Second Coming will happen first.

As for combat losses, maybe you could increase the AT value of infantry, etc. As for mines, I don't think the game has any. It should but I have never seen any mention of them.


Altering the DF figure 'd achieve something close to that, IF that is possible by the engine. Has anybody tried? I am likely going to set up
a little test scenario to try it.

...where is Bob Cross when you need him ;)


Looking at the formula that Norm provided in the manual's appendix (19.2.1), I don't see any effect of DF in tank losses. That doesn't mean that there isn't any, just that good ol' Norm didn't mention any. It appears to be entirely a matter of Attacker AT vs Defender Armor. But I've never done rigorous tests.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to governato)
Post #: 6
RE: Tank losses - 9/1/2015 11:50:03 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 13019
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

A vehicle reliability setting is something that people have asked for before. I would wager the Second Coming will happen first.

As for combat losses, maybe you could increase the AT value of infantry, etc. As for mines, I don't think the game has any. It should but I have never seen any mention of them.

Large minefields can be 'simulated' by the contermination hex; but they can't be cleared of course.

Klink, Oberst


Actually, as far as I can tell, contamination hexes don't cause losses. Their effect is entirely a movement penalty. And, they expire randomly.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to Oberst_Klink)
Post #: 7
RE: Tank losses - 9/2/2015 1:14:40 AM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

A vehicle reliability setting is something that people have asked for before. I would wager the Second Coming will happen first.

As for combat losses, maybe you could increase the AT value of infantry, etc. As for mines, I don't think the game has any. It should but I have never seen any mention of them.

Large minefields can be 'simulated' by the contermination hex; but they can't be cleared of course.

Klink, Oberst


Actually, as far as I can tell, contamination hexes don't cause losses. Their effect is entirely a movement penalty. And, they expire randomly.


I think they also reduce readiness each turn you are in a contaminated hex. I gave this very brief consideration and at first glance someone might think this is the way to go but then when you consider the scale, the defender would be in the contaminated hex. What is the purpose of a minefield?

1. Deny ground
2. Funnel enemy
3. Fix them in place
4. Disrupt

Now you have to figure a way to model this in the game. Good luck with that.

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 8
RE: Tank losses - 9/2/2015 11:50:59 AM   
Oberst_Klink

 

Posts: 4477
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
Status: online
[/quote]

I think they also reduce readiness each turn you are in a contaminated hex. I gave this very brief consideration and at first glance someone might think this is the way to go but then when you consider the scale, the defender would be in the contaminated hex. What is the purpose of a minefield?

1. Deny ground
2. Funnel enemy
3. Fix them in place
4. Disrupt

Now you have to figure a way to model this in the game. Good luck with that.
[/quote]
Indeed the purpose(s) of large minefields; at Gazala only the 'box strong-points' were surrounded by mines. At El Alamein there was no option to 'swing South' due to the Quattara Depression; hence frontal attacks were the only option 1st for Rommel and later on in October 42 for the 8th Army.

There is a .PNG file where the contamination symbol was replaced with a symbolized death-head minefield one.

Recommended reading(s):
http://www.merriam-press.com/thecomparativeperformanceofgermananti-tankweaponsduringworldwarii.aspx
https://ospreypublishing.com/world-war-ii-infantry-anti-tank-tactics
http://ftr.wot-news.com/2013/12/26/on-allied-tank-casualties-in-the-eto/

Klink, Oberst





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Oberst_Klink -- 9/2/2015 1:20:52 PM >


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Visit CS Legion on Twitter & Facebook for updates.

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 9
RE: Tank losses - 9/2/2015 4:08:51 PM   
ogar

 

Posts: 297
Joined: 9/6/2009
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quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: governato


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

A vehicle reliability setting is something that people have asked for before. I would wager the Second Coming will happen first.

As for combat losses, maybe you could increase the AT value of infantry, etc. As for mines, I don't think the game has any. It should but I have never seen any mention of them.



Altering the DF figure 'd achieve something close to that, IF that is possible by the engine. Has anybody tried? I am likely going to set up
a little test scenario to try it.

...where is Bob Cross when you need him ;)



Looking at the formula that Norm provided in the manual's appendix (19.2.1), I don't see any effect of DF in tank losses. That doesn't mean that there isn't any, just that good ol' Norm didn't mention any. It appears to be entirely a matter of Attacker AT vs Defender Armor. But I've never done rigorous tests.


Getting back to the OP - my limited testing/analysis makes me agree with Curtis. Increase the infantry AT values (and if needed, decrease ALL tank/SU/stug armor values, so the armor vs armor is still balanced). I'd look at the eqp Snefens designed for Operation Neva. There are many, many different infantry types and some have high AT values, others not so much. Just be advised that the Neva .eqp has revised values for most entries in it, and these values are usually higher than in most other scenarios.

@Lobster
Agree with your list of purposes. I've toyed with using marsh/flooded marsh bordered by escarpments, and triggering mine-engineer capable (ferry-bridging teams) units to arrive in the next turn. And that only gets two (maybe, three) out of four on the list.
PITA to do even for small scenario.

(in reply to Oberst_Klink)
Post #: 10
RE: Tank losses - 9/2/2015 4:59:48 PM   
governato

 

Posts: 996
Joined: 5/6/2011
From: Seattle, WA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ogar


Getting back to the OP - my limited testing/analysis makes me agree with Curtis. Increase the infantry AT values (and if needed, decrease ALL tank/SU/stug armor values, so the armor vs armor is still balanced). I'd look at the eqp Snefens designed for Operation Neva. There are many, many different infantry types and some have high AT values, others not so much. Just be advised that the Neva .eqp has revised values for most entries in it, and these values are usually higher than in most other scenarios.




Makes sense. What I am seeing is that the Soviet tanks losses are a bit too too low, most likely because the tanks do not 'wear down' as fast as they should.
the `East Front 41-45' scenario has sink units to model tank attrition, and it really helps to get rid of obsolete equipment, but it is not sufficient by itself.
So increasing tank losses due to the ubiquitous infantry is the closest I can get to 'attrition'.


I have set up a little test scenario and will report. I am also toying with the AT capabilities specific of pioneers/engineers/sappers. They have 'kinetic anti-armor' capabilities ON in the stock eqp, but I would imagine that they 'd deal with tanks with mines, hollow charges flamethrowers etc, RPGs, so I will see what happens when its turned OFF.
Variables I plan to test:

- infantry AT values
- AFV armor values
-optics (for Panthers and other late models)
- 'kinetic anti-armor' for engineer squads (or pioneers/sappers in modified eqp values.).


Yes, I agree a vehicle reliability variable 'd be perfect. In fact TOAW has something similar implemented: as units move some equipment is returned to the pool. Implementing a scenario variable where only XX % of this 'broken down' equipment comes back 'd help.


< Message edited by governato -- 9/2/2015 6:04:01 PM >

(in reply to ogar)
Post #: 11
RE: Tank losses - 9/2/2015 5:36:23 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 4906
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink



I think they also reduce readiness each turn you are in a contaminated hex. I gave this very brief consideration and at first glance someone might think this is the way to go but then when you consider the scale, the defender would be in the contaminated hex. What is the purpose of a minefield?

1. Deny ground
2. Funnel enemy
3. Fix them in place
4. Disrupt

Now you have to figure a way to model this in the game. Good luck with that.

Indeed the purpose(s) of large minefields; at Gazala only the 'box strong-points' were surrounded by mines. At El Alamein there was no option to 'swing South' due to the Quattara Depression; hence frontal attacks were the only option 1st for Rommel and later on in October 42 for the 8th Army.

There is a .PNG file where the contamination symbol was replaced with a symbolized death-head minefield one.

Recommended reading(s):
http://www.merriam-press.com/thecomparativeperformanceofgermananti-tankweaponsduringworldwarii.aspx
https://ospreypublishing.com/world-war-ii-infantry-anti-tank-tactics
http://ftr.wot-news.com/2013/12/26/on-allied-tank-casualties-in-the-eto/

Klink, Oberst






But simply changing an icon and calling it good does not correctly represent a minefield. In the case of a 5km or greater hex the defender and the minefield have to be in the same hex. Otherwise the minefield would be over represented. That would put the defender in the contaminated hex which would impose unhealthy effects on the defender instead of the attacker. Now, if we were allowed to edit the effects of terrain it would be an entirely different story.

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

(in reply to Oberst_Klink)
Post #: 12
RE: Tank losses - 9/4/2015 11:23:09 AM   
Oberst_Klink

 

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Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
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I never implied it can model the effects of a mine field. More like a cosmetic solution and maybe our old friend Kapitan Klose can find some lines in the code to
at least model some of the effects :)

Klink, Oberst

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Visit CS Legion on Twitter & Facebook for updates.

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 13
RE: Tank losses - 9/7/2015 6:22:07 AM   
Grognard


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quote:

falling into a ditch, engine exploding, acts of God etc etc :)


These are not losses due to infantry.... assuming some % level of attrition is turned on - AFV's will go away due to maneuver attrition - how about just reducing on hand inventory and lower replacement priority in the editor. This, at least, would minus a good chunk.

DID fall into a ditch once and threw a track - fixed it on the spot but it was one link shorter than the other side.... darn thing always wanted to turn right after that..... bye bye NASCAR :(

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Find 'em, Fix 'em, & Kill 'em

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Post #: 14
RE: Tank losses - 9/7/2015 3:03:15 PM   
Lobster


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Since not every piece of equipment is created equal a way to make one piece less reliable than another is worth the time. In 1941 on the East Front much of the losses in Soviet tanks was due to their old age and lack of reliability. There were times when half of a units tanks broke down on the way to the battle. But it was the older tanks that suffered most. You can't sort that out with pestilence. I see a lot of people posting about how to kinda sorta in a way it almost looks right stuff. They are redoing the game. Why not get it right? Why do people continue to insist on this work around CRAP when it can all be made to work as it should? Very frustrating.

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

(in reply to Grognard)
Post #: 15
RE: Tank losses - 9/7/2015 3:27:28 PM   
governato

 

Posts: 996
Joined: 5/6/2011
From: Seattle, WA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Since not every piece of equipment is created equal a way to make one piece less reliable than another is worth the time. In 1941 on the East Front much of the losses in Soviet tanks was due to their old age and lack of reliability. There were times when half of a units tanks broke down on the way to the battle. But it was the older tanks that suffered most. You can't sort that out with pestilence. I see a lot of people posting about how to kinda sorta in a way it almost looks right stuff. They are redoing the game. Why not get it right? Why do people continue to insist on this work around CRAP when it can all be made to work as it should? Very frustrating.



I agree completely.

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 16
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