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OT: Women's World Cup 2015 - 7/2/2015 3:10:02 PM   
Chickenboy


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Surprised to see no previous threads on this subject. No matter. I'd like to start a sophisticated and erudite discussion of the WWC finals here. Permit me to suggest the following as the first point? Erm...(clears throat)...here it is:

USA! USA! USA!

Thank you. That is all.

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RE: OT: Women's World Cup 2015 - 7/2/2015 8:59:14 PM   
Zorch

 

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+1





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RE: OT: Women's World Cup 2015 - 7/2/2015 10:01:45 PM   
Zap


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Really can't get into it. It's a women's sport thing with me. I watched a couple of the games this year. Good if the USA wins.
Here's my spoiler. Why wasn't there an outcry for the ouster of the American goalie for domestic violence. Is it because she a women and they have special consideration. When I see all the male sports figures being tossed out. What' good for the goose is good for the gander.

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RE: OT: Women's World Cup 2015 - 7/2/2015 11:39:27 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zap

Here's my spoiler. Why wasn't there an outcry for the ouster of the American goalie for domestic violence. Is it because she a women and they have special consideration. When I see all the male sports figures being tossed out. What' good for the goose is good for the gander.


I completely agree, Zap. The public is largely ignoring domestic violence perpetrated by females-and this is no exception.

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RE: OT: Women's World Cup 2015 - 7/3/2015 12:03:31 AM   
Aurelian

 

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What is there to ignore? She was charged. The charges were dismissed.

The case was dismissed following continued refusal to cooperate by the witnesses and alleged victims, Solo's half-sister Teresa Obert and Obert's teenage son.

http://www.nbcsports.com/soccer/judge-dismisses-charges-against-hope-solo

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 7/3/2015 1:05:32 AM >


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RE: OT: Women's World Cup 2015 - 7/3/2015 3:05:32 AM   
Zap


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The point is just an accusation brings the male to be removed until it is investigated. She was not removed until the thing was investigated was she? But even when the investigation is over for a male he is still vilified by many in the public. And the news media bring up his alleged violence every time he shows for a game. Would that the media do the same for her. When she appears in a game, Oh there is "so and so' she was alleged to have committed domestic vilolence but she's playing today. and then do a deep dig into her past to see what they can find.

< Message edited by Zap -- 7/3/2015 4:06:21 AM >


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RE: OT: Women's World Cup 2015 - 7/3/2015 9:04:02 AM   
aaatoysandmore

 

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Now about that British goalie??? Whad she do?

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RE: OT: Women's World Cup 2015 - 7/3/2015 10:29:00 AM   
Jim D Burns


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
The case was dismissed following continued refusal to cooperate by the witnesses and alleged victims,


The guy’s wife that got knocked out in the elevator also refused to cooperate, yet he was publicly and professionally destroyed. Lack of victim cooperation should not be the litmus test in domestic violence cases as its common for victims to refuse to cooperate.

There is an unhealthy level of dependency in many domestic violence victims that in part helps make them susceptible to being victimized. Abusers recognize this personality trait and take advantage of it.

Jim



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RE: OT: Women's World Cup 2015 - 7/3/2015 11:58:40 AM   
Zap


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So your saying the (the goalie's) partner could have refused to cooperate. That is a possibility here.

In many instances for a male that is what everyone would say if his partner refused to testify. He beat the crap out of his partner but she is suffering from an unhealthy dependency.
Why do we hesitate to readily come to the same conclusion when a women is the perpetrator? Because its male bashing time in our society. Men are depicted as stupid, unfaithful, unnecessary. And it would be better for society if we were more like women or if we were women. What a crappy society we have become. No wonder so many don't know what sex they are! And women have a special consideration.

Well that's my beef for the day Lol.

< Message edited by Zap -- 7/3/2015 1:04:53 PM >


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RE: OT: Women's World Cup 2015 - 7/3/2015 5:56:09 PM   
PipFromSlitherine

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
The case was dismissed following continued refusal to cooperate by the witnesses and alleged victims,


The guy’s wife that got knocked out in the elevator also refused to cooperate, yet he was publicly and professionally destroyed. Lack of victim cooperation should not be the litmus test in domestic violence cases as its common for victims to refuse to cooperate.

There is an unhealthy level of dependency in many domestic violence victims that in part helps make them susceptible to being victimized. Abusers recognize this personality trait and take advantage of it.

Jim



If you mean Ray Rice, he was caught on video dragging his unconscious wife from the elevator. Followed by video of him actually knocking her out. So it's hardly the same. Let's not fall into MRA thinking...

Let's get the thread back on topic though. It's far more important that we basically let Japan walk past us (GBR) to the final.

Cheers

Pip


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RE: OT: Women's World Cup 2015 - 7/4/2015 3:07:51 AM   
CB60

 

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Way to go! But you know what sucks? FIFA made the women play all their games on astroturf! Imagine going full out, slipping, and just burning the hell out of your legs.

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RE: OT: Women's World Cup 2015 - 7/4/2015 4:53:44 AM   
wworld7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CB60

Way to go! But you know what sucks? FIFA made the women play all their games on astroturf! Imagine going full out, slipping, and just burning the hell out of your legs.


You are correct!!! It sucks, grass is so much better.

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RE: OT: Women's World Cup 2015 - 7/4/2015 5:54:34 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
The case was dismissed following continued refusal to cooperate by the witnesses and alleged victims,


The guy’s wife that got knocked out in the elevator also refused to cooperate, yet he was publicly and professionally destroyed. Lack of victim cooperation should not be the litmus test in domestic violence cases as its common for victims to refuse to cooperate.

There is an unhealthy level of dependency in many domestic violence victims that in part helps make them susceptible to being victimized. Abusers recognize this personality trait and take advantage of it.

Jim



If you mean Ray Rice, he was caught on video dragging his unconscious wife from the elevator. Followed by video of him actually knocking her out. So it's hardly the same. Let's not fall into MRA thinking...

Let's get the thread back on topic though. It's far more important that we basically let Japan walk past us (GBR) to the final.

Cheers

Pip

warspite1

GBR? You mean England


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RE: OT: Women's World Cup 2015 - 7/4/2015 9:32:20 AM   
Jim D Burns


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine
So it's hardly the same.


I intentionally pointed to the incident to use it as an example of an obvious domestic violence situation (no one can refute that it occurred) that saw the victim refuse to cooperate. This soccer goalie is also an obvious abuser as well according to this story and chargers were not dropped because of lack of evidence or because there is any doubt she is a violent abuser. Chargers were dropped because witnesses and the victim would not testify, so the two cases are almost the same except there is video evidence in the first case for everyone to see.

http://www.chicagonow.com/token-female/2015/01/hope-solo-domestic-violence-charges-dropped-us-soccer-drops-a-big-one/

In my many years in law enforcement I saw thousands of cases of domestic violence and the number of victims that repeatedly dropped charges over and over again that I saw is impossible to count. If I had to estimate it I’d say at least 75% of victims would eventually drop charges even if they were beaten so bad they almost died.

There is an unhealthy level of dependency that many victims have that for whatever reason leads them to find their way back under the control of their abusers, even when it’s obvious to any outsider that they will suffer horribly again and again. The number of victims I watched go through this routine over and over until they eventually were killed by their abuser probably numbers in the hundreds.

Based on this very common pattern seen over and over again, lack of cooperation by victims of domestic abuse should never be used in the criteria that decides whether a case gets charged or not. Sadly it is all too often used as an excuse to drop charges as in the case of this goalie. No one doubts she is guilty yet she is allowed to get away with it simply because her victim won’t cooperate and she knows it. I have no doubt she’ll victimize him again and again until one day she might use a knife or a gun.

Jim


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RE: OT: Women's World Cup 2015 - 7/4/2015 1:33:02 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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Not really following this WC, so a few questions.

I know anything may happen in a final. I know the American team is usually one of the best. I don't know the Japanese though.

So in theory what team is strongest, more skilled, who should be winning?

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RE: OT: Women's World Cup 2015 - 7/5/2015 9:08:48 AM   
aaatoysandmore

 

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But what about that BRITISH goalie? Whad she do now?

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RE: OT: Women's World Cup 2015 - 7/5/2015 9:13:46 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

But what about that BRITISH goalie? Whad she do now?
warspite1

Amazing

Half the time when people should be talking about Britain they refer to England. When they should be talking about England they refer to Britain!!! Why is this so difficult to understand?*

If your reference is to the fact that the England goalkeeper was born in the US, then I'm not sure why this is a "". There are agreed international rules around who can play for whom depending upon other family for example (as in this case) or in the case of some sports there are "transfer mechanisms" too. If you think the English football team - and Karen Bardsley in particular - is special have a look at how many of the US's 600 athletes for the Olympic Games 2012 were born overseas - more than 40 I believe.



*By the way and for the avoidance of doubt, this is a light-hearted remark..... well mostly anyway.. perhaps a tinsiest bit of frustration too


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 7/5/2015 10:51:16 AM >


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RE: OT: Women's World Cup 2015 - 7/5/2015 12:33:08 PM   
aaatoysandmore

 

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:) I figured it out England must be like a state of Britian? Am I right?

< Message edited by aaatoysandmore -- 7/5/2015 1:39:41 PM >

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RE: OT: Women's World Cup 2015 - 7/5/2015 12:45:19 PM   
Zorch

 

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Britain is that whole island. England is the part of the island that's not in Scotland or Wales.
Don't ask me about the Isle of Man.

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RE: OT: Women's World Cup 2015 - 7/5/2015 11:41:37 PM   
Zap


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Americans beat Japan.

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RE: OT: Women's World Cup 2015 - 7/6/2015 6:09:38 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zap

Americans beat Japan.
warspite1

Sounds like they thrashed them. Well done USA.


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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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RE: OT: Women's World Cup 2015 - 7/6/2015 8:23:41 AM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns


quote:

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine
So it's hardly the same.


I intentionally pointed to the incident to use it as an example of an obvious domestic violence situation (no one can refute that it occurred) that saw the victim refuse to cooperate. This soccer goalie is also an obvious abuser as well according to this story and chargers were not dropped because of lack of evidence or because there is any doubt she is a violent abuser. Chargers were dropped because witnesses and the victim would not testify, so the two cases are almost the same except there is video evidence in the first case for everyone to see.

http://www.chicagonow.com/token-female/2015/01/hope-solo-domestic-violence-charges-dropped-us-soccer-drops-a-big-one/

In my many years in law enforcement I saw thousands of cases of domestic violence and the number of victims that repeatedly dropped charges over and over again that I saw is impossible to count. If I had to estimate it I’d say at least 75% of victims would eventually drop charges even if they were beaten so bad they almost died.

There is an unhealthy level of dependency that many victims have that for whatever reason leads them to find their way back under the control of their abusers, even when it’s obvious to any outsider that they will suffer horribly again and again. The number of victims I watched go through this routine over and over until they eventually were killed by their abuser probably numbers in the hundreds.

Based on this very common pattern seen over and over again, lack of cooperation by victims of domestic abuse should never be used in the criteria that decides whether a case gets charged or not. Sadly it is all too often used as an excuse to drop charges as in the case of this goalie. No one doubts she is guilty yet she is allowed to get away with it simply because her victim won’t cooperate and she knows it. I have no doubt she’ll victimize him again and again until one day she might use a knife or a gun.

Jim



The problem is that when witnesses refuse to testify it is impossible to proceed to a successful outcome in a court of law where the accused is presumed innocent and is fully entitled to challenge the veracity of the evidence brought against them. The video evidence can itself be challenged but it can be introduced by the prosecution. When witnesses refuse to participate there is nothing for the prosecution to introduce; no witness to be challenged in cross examination, no witness statement to be dissected and challenged by the defence. In these circumstance continuing with the case is just more work for the prosecution, depriving other matters of resources, and all for a guaranteed 100% failure.

If there were some third party testimony which could be introduced, such as medical records consistent with physical abuse, that might be strong enough to proceed. But that material is not always strong enough and is often not even in existence and even when it is, the abused may disavow it. Plus you can't introduce hearsay. So all up, when domestic violence often involves only the abuser and the abused, there really is nothing left to do if the abused refuses to testify.

Alfred

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RE: OT: Women's World Cup 2015 - 7/6/2015 9:04:36 AM   
RichMunn

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

But what about that BRITISH goalie? Whad she do now?
warspite1

Amazing

Half the time when people should be talking about Britain they refer to England. When they should be talking about England they refer to Britain!!! Why is this so difficult to understand?*

If your reference is to the fact that the England goalkeeper was born in the US, then I'm not sure why this is a "". There are agreed international rules around who can play for whom depending upon other family for example (as in this case) or in the case of some sports there are "transfer mechanisms" too. If you think the English football team - and Karen Bardsley in particular - is special have a look at how many of the US's 600 athletes for the Olympic Games 2012 were born overseas - more than 40 I believe.



*By the way and for the avoidance of doubt, this is a light-hearted remark..... well mostly anyway.. perhaps a tinsiest bit of frustration too



No, what happens is that is an English athlete wins a gold medal at, say, the Olympics, he or she is referred to as English, but if a Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish athlete does so the English press refers to them as "British". Just look at "British" Andy Murray!

Anyway the Ashes starts in Cardiff this week - that is in Wales by the way, where England and Wales will be playing Australia.

Rich


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RE: OT: Women's World Cup 2015 - 7/6/2015 2:05:30 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zap

Americans beat Japan.
warspite1

Sounds like they thrashed them. Well done USA.



Jolly good, indeed.

I must say-if the sport of soccer was half as entertaining as the first 16 minutes of the first half, I'd watch more of it. How about that mid-field strike? Phenomenal!

To bookend my initial post-again in a sophisticated and erudite manner-erm...


USA! USA! USA!

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RE: OT: Women's World Cup 2015 - 7/6/2015 3:20:17 PM   
Jim D Burns


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
The problem is that when witnesses refuse to testify it is impossible to proceed to a successful outcome in a court of law where the accused is presumed innocent and is fully entitled to challenge the veracity of the evidence brought against them. The video evidence can itself be challenged but it can be introduced by the prosecution. When witnesses refuse to participate there is nothing for the prosecution to introduce; no witness to be challenged in cross examination, no witness statement to be dissected and challenged by the defence. In these circumstance continuing with the case is just more work for the prosecution, depriving other matters of resources, and all for a guaranteed 100% failure.

If there were some third party testimony which could be introduced, such as medical records consistent with physical abuse, that might be strong enough to proceed. But that material is not always strong enough and is often not even in existence and even when it is, the abused may disavow it. Plus you can't introduce hearsay. So all up, when domestic violence often involves only the abuser and the abused, there really is nothing left to do if the abused refuses to testify.

I am all for upholding the rights of the accused, but our justice system has become a sort of bizarro world due to expediency and the desire to keep a high conviction average in the stats. The vast majority of domestic violence calls that lead to an arrest do so because at the time of the offense the victim is cooperative and gives a statement and officers find evidence that corroborates the victim’s statement. Later the victim recants and it is this recant that prosecutors hang their hat on as justification to drop the charges.

No one takes into account whether justice is being served when a case gets dropped like that, instead it’s about the law of averages and the small risk of a case being lost that motivates the decision. Cold hard cash (the cost of a trial) comes into play as well, but the over-riding concern is a desire to keep a high conviction rate as it helps careers and makes the DA’s office look good.

It is so commonplace now that I would say its standard policy for just about any DA’s office to simply drop a case if the victim won’t testify without even reviewing whether it’s the right thing to do or not. Looking at the original statement and evidence and impeaching the victims recanting of their original statement on the stand by giving testimony about the psychological aspects that leads many domestic violence victims to drop charges even in the face of life threatening violence is never even considered.

That’s why I said it’s some kind of bizarro world. We know or are pretty confident the suspect is guilty but we pretend it’s their right to a fair trial we are concerned with and dropping charges is somehow upholding justice. When we all know justice is most certainly not being done.

Jim



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RE: OT: Women's World Cup 2015 - 7/6/2015 3:25:48 PM   
Zap


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Another, point of evidence, for my comment on the poor state/ direction our society is taking.

< Message edited by Zap -- 7/6/2015 4:26:14 PM >


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RE: OT: Women's World Cup 2015 - 7/6/2015 3:48:46 PM   
Chickenboy


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Guys,

I would prefer if you took your discussions of domestic assault and the jurisprudence thereof elsewhere. Please don't post that material in this celebratory thread, lest it be locked.

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RE: OT: Women's World Cup 2015 - 7/6/2015 4:35:26 PM   
Gilmer


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Congrats to the women. Kristin Press is hot.

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RE: OT: Women's World Cup 2015 - 7/6/2015 5:35:05 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RichMunn


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

But what about that BRITISH goalie? Whad she do now?
warspite1

Amazing

Half the time when people should be talking about Britain they refer to England. When they should be talking about England they refer to Britain!!! Why is this so difficult to understand?*

If your reference is to the fact that the England goalkeeper was born in the US, then I'm not sure why this is a "". There are agreed international rules around who can play for whom depending upon other family for example (as in this case) or in the case of some sports there are "transfer mechanisms" too. If you think the English football team - and Karen Bardsley in particular - is special have a look at how many of the US's 600 athletes for the Olympic Games 2012 were born overseas - more than 40 I believe.



*By the way and for the avoidance of doubt, this is a light-hearted remark..... well mostly anyway.. perhaps a tinsiest bit of frustration too



No, what happens is that is an English athlete wins a gold medal at, say, the Olympics, he or she is referred to as English, but if a Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish athlete does so the English press refers to them as "British". Just look at "British" Andy Murray!

Anyway the Ashes starts in Cardiff this week - that is in Wales by the way, where England and Wales will be playing Australia.

Rich


warspite1



This rubbish old chestnut again

I watch plenty of sport and believe me, this is just so sad. Motor racing: You think for example David Coulthard or Sir JYS were never, indeed are never, referred to as Scotsmen? You think Andy Murray is never referred to as a Scotman? Eddie Irvine was never an Ulsterman when winning Grand Prix?

When English, Northern Irish, Scots or Welsh play a sport representing their individual countries (e.g. Commonwealth Games), they are referred to in those terms. When they represent the United Kingdom/Great Britain (e.g. the Olympic Games) then they are referred to mostly by that denomination but sometimes by the country of their birth. The Welsh lass Nicole Cooke for example. How many times was she referred to as Welsh on her way to Gold in Beijing even though she was representing Team GB? Plenty - so what? She is Welsh - and British.

To call David Coulthard or Andy Murray British when winning Wimbledon or a Grand Prix is perfectly acceptable.... because they are. So is calling them Scots - because they are - and which they are referred to as frequently. Do some journalists get it wrong? Possibly.. but to suggest the entire English press corps are waging some kind of colonial campaign to beat down the Celts is just pathetic. Do Scots journalists or Welsh journalists at the Olympics ever refer to their athletes by their individual nationality - even when winning Gold for Great Britain and NI? No of course not - its only the Fascist English press that get it wrong isn't it?

quote:

Anyway the Ashes starts in Cardiff this week - that is in Wales by the way, where England and Wales will be playing Australia.


No idea why you are getting snotty with me - you clearly have a short memory re the European Championship thread . You obviously weren't around when the Scots referendum thread was current. Perhaps if you were you would know you picked on the wrong guy if you want to accuse someone of English bias

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 7/6/2015 8:28:27 PM >


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RE: OT: Women's World Cup 2015 - 7/6/2015 6:26:10 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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Sadly, no one stripped down to a sports bra. Maybe next time.

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