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Halt! - 7/1/2015 8:37:47 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

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Due to recent actions, taken to abuse the system I developed for GD 1938, to avoid players having to cope with RAM problems, I have decided not to develope GD 1938 for a periode of time.

The abuse that is occuring is the frequent usage of "Phoney wars" to gain minor nations. Since there is no way to prevent these, that I currently can think of, the only consequence I can take is to conclude that the game is broken, and unfixable, at least for now, and thus deserves no more of my attention.

It was a good time while it lasted, alas, it is no more. Unless I am convinced otherwise.

Ernieschwitz

PS: The RAM problems came from having potentially 55 regimes controlled by the AI, on a HUGE map. Since I cannot make the map smaller, nor make fewer regimes than the actual amount of nations, the game is broken.
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RE: Halt! - 7/1/2015 11:03:45 PM   
ironduke1955


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Sorry to hear it after you have put so much work into the mod, never the less perhaps a fix may materialize in the future. In the mean time I would like to thank you and Bomber for your efforts on GD1938 my favorite ATG mod.

(in reply to ernieschwitz)
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RE: Halt! - 7/2/2015 12:17:44 AM   
Bombur

 

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I talked to ernie earlier (but after his post) and he was somewhat stressed and frustrated with the dificulty we are having to fix this exploit. I made some remarks on the following topics.
1-GD9138 is not broken, this exploit used by some players is not dissimilar to what leaders do in real life.
2-Even if we "fix" this "bug" we will never be able to prevent completely the use of such gamey tactics Players will always find other exploits
3-I always suggested a very simple way to minimize this exploit: a house rule forbidding a player to be at war with himself if he controls more than one country
I´m not sure if this house rule is being followed. This would help a lot.
4-On the other hand, I told ernie that he should stop trying to please everyone. I think the game engine is already mature and the games works very well, at least the version we have in the community site (the last one has a bug but it is being fixed). It has troubles? Of course, but how many simulations of WWII at a global level are better than this one????
5-So I suggested ernie to stop the development of the mod engine, while I still can do smaller changes, like adding new units, tweaking the combat mechanisms and so on.
6-I did so because I think too much time is being invested in a scenario that already is working very well, and any further changes in the diplomatic engine will add complexity without any benefit in terms of gameplay. Ernie´s huge talents with the editor can be used to better effects in new projects.

In other words, GD1938 won´t be abandoned, we will still support the mod, but players should take the game engine "as it is", because there wom´t be major changes for a while.

(in reply to ironduke1955)
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RE: Halt! - 7/2/2015 12:48:18 AM   
ironduke1955


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Amazing the exploits you could arrange players cannot give other players Political Points, but they can give them HQ's if it has been allowed so just transfer a 100 HQ's to your ally and he has 300 PP additional PP's what a devious bunch we humans are.

< Message edited by ironduke1955 -- 7/2/2015 2:16:11 AM >

(in reply to Bombur)
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RE: Halt! - 7/2/2015 1:40:36 AM   
danlongman

 

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Thanks guys for everything you have done so far.

_____________________________

"Patriotism: Your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." - George Bernard Shaw

(in reply to ironduke1955)
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RE: Halt! - 7/2/2015 12:10:41 PM   
Khanti

 

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They say that all's fair in love and business.
Players just follow "great leaders" guidelines: cheat and grab more for yourself.
Essential copy of politics of S., H., Ch., R. and other gangsters.
Cheer up, there's another day!


(in reply to ernieschwitz)
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RE: Halt! - 7/2/2015 12:13:14 PM   
ironduke1955


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"1-GD9138 is not broken, this exploit used by some players is not dissimilar to what leaders do in real life."

I agree with this sentiment it may require more than one card for diplomacy per turn, or rather when a minor power reaches the magic 800 a event is triggered, after all diplomacy was not limited to one nation a month,
but that event may go against the nation that triggers the event, in other words if Hungary is pro-German the takeover of that country is not guaranteed, giving two events a reset of influence.
so the nation remains neutral but the influence of the nation triggering the event is reduced to zero, also a possibility that the minor nation becomes a satellite of the second placed nation.
after all not all coups succeed sometimes counter insurgency can win, so if you do force the issue by exceeding 800 influence you may not get the result you want.
There is now a option to place a very large army on the border of a nation that you wish to take over,
and certainly in that case things should remain unchanged after all a army on your border is a excellent argument. And in deed if you have the magic 800 influence and a army on the border that should be a bonus for ensuring that you obtain the right outcome.


What we need is more diplomacy not less, diplomacy is messy and very rarely ever turns out as you expected. And of course the nightmare of coding all of the above,
is something that I would not even know how to approach.

And something that occurs to me regards Minor Powers, obtaining a minor power via diplomatic or military means is not that big a event it will not win you the game and often causes more problems than it solves, one of those being you will be annoying other players who will not be happy with your expansion.

< Message edited by ironduke1955 -- 7/2/2015 2:14:51 PM >

(in reply to Bombur)
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RE: Halt! - 7/2/2015 2:08:28 PM   
falco148

 

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Maybe I'm missing something here but I don't get it. Now we're all supposed to suddenly stop playing GD38 on the say-so of one individual?

I totally agree with the premise that a major country should not be able to declare war on itself just to easily gobble up a minor country. However if one major
country has political influence over a certain minor country but decides to not to intervene on the minor country's behalf because of a prior agreement with another
major power, I have no problem with that. This kind of thing has happened time and again in history, so its not like its totally implausible or anything. In fact
its just what happens in real life.

I agree with Irondude in that sometimes it feels good for the major power concerned to quickly overpower a minor. However it can easily annoy and frustrate others
who are unhappy with the expansion and in time this can work against the instigator. Again just like in real life.

I think some sort of arrangement should be worked out where major powers can transfer political points but it takes some time, ie. one month or maybe two.

Anyway just my 2 cents worth.




(in reply to ironduke1955)
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RE: Halt! - 7/2/2015 3:00:16 PM   
ironduke1955


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LOL that is not what Ernie said he simply said he will not be working on the mod any more because he can't fix that one issue.

The problem is simple.

X=Germany Y=Italy

A neutral friendly to Y is attacked by X. War now exists between X and Y, X and Y make peace. Rinse and repeat with other minor powers, this is a exploit and not Ernie's intention house rules are not working, so he is throwing in the towel on the mod.

I like the ideas I put forward, but I am not doing the coding so its easy for me to throw idea's out there but Ernie has to code them, and if he has had enough of the complaints section for the mod, and doesn't want to suffer the slings and arrows anymore than that is his choice.

Beside have a care Ernie and Alexandre are not paid for the thousands of hours they put into these mods, so with that in mind it doesn't hurt to tread lightly with request and complaints, no one has paid for their hard work so no one has a right to berate them if some aspect of the MOD is not to their satisfaction, in other words if someone wishes to give them earache because something doesn't work in the mod to their satisfaction, then pay them

< Message edited by ironduke1955 -- 7/2/2015 4:19:04 PM >

(in reply to falco148)
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RE: Halt! - 7/2/2015 3:01:38 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

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quote:

Maybe I'm missing something here but I don't get it. Now we're all supposed to suddenly stop playing GD38 on the say-so of one individual?


You can do whatever you want. Nobody is forcing your hand to do anything. I am just stating that I am not doing something. Which by the way is my right. I am not a slave, nor have I made any permanent agreement, to do anything. Play all you want.

Oh and I am just the individual who happens to be the creator of the game you are playing. So don´t belittle me by seeming me to be less than I am.

(in reply to falco148)
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RE: Halt! - 7/2/2015 3:35:06 PM   
falco148

 

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For some reason this wouldn't post so I'm trying again.

< Message edited by falco -- 7/2/2015 4:37:01 PM >

(in reply to ernieschwitz)
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RE: Halt! - 7/2/2015 3:49:23 PM   
falco148

 

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quote:

Beside have a care Ernie and Alexandre are not paid for the thousands of hours they put into these mods, so with that in mind it doesn't hurt to tread lightly with request and complaints, no one has paid for their hard work so no one has a right to berate them if some aspect of the MOD is not to their satisfaction, in other words if someone wishes to give them earache because something doesn't work in the mod to their satisfaction, then pay them


Show me once where I've berated their fine work or complained about this neutral country issue. The game appeared to be working perfectly fine to me.

quote:

I am not a slave, nor have I made any permanent agreement


Jesus, where did I suggest even once that you were?

quote:

So don´t belittle me by seeming me to be less than I am.


I didn't belittle you. Read my post again.

(in reply to falco148)
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RE: Halt! - 7/2/2015 4:11:47 PM   
ironduke1955


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"Maybe I'm missing something here but I don't get it. Now we're all supposed to suddenly stop playing GD38 on the say-so of one individual?"

Well the above statement is incorrect not offensive in itself, the reference to one individual and large ego's a comment seen on the AAR, could be construed as offensive. I just said have a care ignore me if you want to, but we are not making progress down this road, and I would rather see things go forward than collapse into entropy.

(in reply to falco148)
Post #: 13
RE: Halt! - 7/2/2015 4:53:45 PM   
falco148

 

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Again, I havnt been amongst those doing all the complaining. As I have said before, this very good scenario is working perfectly fine to me.

(in reply to ironduke1955)
Post #: 14
RE: Halt! - 7/2/2015 5:28:21 PM   
ironduke1955


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Never said you had, but keep in mind that the mod guys are likely strung out over complaints they have received (I get it not from you, never for a moment thought they were), and likely to say take this non paying job and shove it.
As we have just witnessed.

Also note that you are not guiltless regards the exploit that is causing the complaints, I am giving you a pass on them but several other players are not. Personally I agree with Bomber that major powers would manipulate minors between them if they were allies, all the more reason why diplomacy should be more prolific, so that western allies can convert some of the pro Axis minors to pro Allied nations, blocking Axis take overs.

(in reply to falco148)
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RE: Halt! - 7/2/2015 6:09:14 PM   
baloo7777


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ernieshwitz, Bombur, ... I am very sorry to have abused the GD38 Mods house rules. I would rather you continued on what I consider a very fine, and hugely fun mod of what has become my personal favorite game. I've been playing this mod less than a year, and found myself feeling rather overmatched in the ability to attack and defend well. My goal was to use Diplomacy to advantage, along with PP's and cards to try and gain a jump on my more experienced opponents. I also thought that as long as I was doing so with a country I already had a destructive war with, I was merely trying to point them away from my interests.
Again, these are all just excuses. I hope you will reconsider and continue to work on this excellent mod.

_____________________________

JRR

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RE: Halt! - 7/2/2015 11:41:14 PM   
lion_of_judah


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I haven't played this mod in a long time, but I do think this was one of the best mods out there and I'm hoping Ernie will change his mind. He is one of the reasons why this game is so outstanding in my opinion. Both him and bombur that is

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RE: Halt! - 7/3/2015 1:13:55 AM   
Jeffrey H.


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Charge both regimes 100 PP, (more ?) to make peace after automatic DOW and that would just about kill the bug.


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RE: Halt! - 7/3/2015 12:48:13 PM   
falco148

 

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quote:

Also note that you are not guiltless regards the exploit that is causing the complaints, I am giving you a pass on them but several other players are not.


Fair enough but your hardly guiltless over the complaints issue, Re: your post on the 6/24....
quote:

This was achieved by the expenditure of influence and Political Points with no recourse to phony declarations of war,


Anyway I'm not going to waste any more of my time commenting on this. Its really a non-issue. The people that have been bitching and griping over this have obviously
got nothing better to do with their time. This issue ('phony' DOW) could easily be worked out before the scenario is started by some common agreement, especially if new
players are involved.

(in reply to Jeffrey H.)
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RE: Halt! - 7/3/2015 3:57:17 PM   
ironduke1955


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Simple solution is to remove the house rule on the exploit !!! in future games as the MOD's designers and builders are themselves split on how to play this.

Regards my comments on the Bulgaria DOW it was made on the forum in the open I made no complaints to Claus or Alexandre. You were on my side if I remember rightly, and I was aware that their would be a S**t Storm coming someone's way, so that was preemptive not a complaint but a mea culpa to my side the Axis. A solution was found, done and dusted.

So a vote on the DOW house rule needs to be added if a new game of GD1938 is started.

As I have said before Czechoslovakia Austria fell bloodlessly in 1938 one of these the Czech's were not pro Axis so I have no problem with the manipulation of minor powers by two majors, its what happened historically anyway. If the allies don't want Yugoslavia or Rumania to become Axis how about throwing some PP in there to gain influence.

< Message edited by ironduke1955 -- 7/3/2015 5:04:22 PM >

(in reply to falco148)
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Halt - sort of - 7/3/2015 10:07:33 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

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I am still thinking, haven´t decided completely what to do with the GD 1938 mod yet, as for developement. However, I have posted the latest version, the one with intimidation and bigger minors in the scenario bank. It is version 221r.

(in reply to ironduke1955)
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RE: Halt - sort of - 7/3/2015 10:35:29 PM   
Bombur

 

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I also asked ernie if I could make minor developments in GD1938 (comabt system, new SFT´s and other stuff) and he allowed me to do it.

Some extra comments
Jeffrey: Put a penalty on making peace would no doubt kill the "bug" (which is not a bug from my POV), but would also need to put a diplomatic block in all regimew thus needing a complete overhaul of the diplomatic system
IronDuke: House rules are optional, they can or cannot ve followed by the players, depending on the agreement they have. I strongly suggest we should not allow a player to DOW himself. From my POV, this is the only house rule we need. It doesn´t completely avoid the risks of phony wars, but reduce them, by, say, 75%. And a gentlemen agreement is all you need to have it implemented. You don´t need even one line of code. I fail to understand why this rule is not being followed. Of course, the game is still playable without it, but it´s less funny.

(in reply to ernieschwitz)
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RE: Halt - sort of - 7/3/2015 11:53:37 PM   
Twotribes


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No one declared war on themselves, the argument is that an ally attacks your most favored country and you make peace with him after the conquest.

(in reply to Bombur)
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RE: Halt - sort of - 7/4/2015 2:20:58 AM   
Bombur

 

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This seems fair to me, I thought some players had wars with themselves....

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RE: Halt - sort of - 7/4/2015 2:23:34 AM   
Twotribes


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If you attack a country that favors you I am pretty sure it goes to the next senior person that it likes.

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RE: Halt - sort of - 7/6/2015 4:22:27 PM   
GrumpyMel

 

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Never played GD but as someone that has done a bit of scenario design I can say with a fair bit of confidence that there is no way any game or any scenario can prevent, what might be envisioned by the designer or players, as "gamey/exploitative" behavior. That can be frustrating for the designer and many players but someone will always find a way to do something that is outside of the design intent. That doesn't mean the scenario/game is broken, nor should it reflect unfavorably upon it or the designer. Especially someone as talented and devoted as Ernie and a scenario that has gotten the vast majority of play here...as GD has. Ernie really deserves a prize for developing a scenario that is so popular and extensively played.

IMO, the only thing you can ultimately do about "gamey/exploitative" behavior is to let the players set "House Rules" for a particular game and then decide what to do about another player breaking them. If there is an easy fix, sure make it....but it's not worth your time trying to bang your head against the wall to chase after fixes to all such behavior. Your very considerable development talents, Ernie, I'm sure could be put to better use.

I know the scenario's I developed really needed House Rules to play the way I really intended them. There were even things that I knew how to fix in that regard...but it really wasn't worth the devotion of time when compared to improving other aspects of the scenario. If players choose to play a particular game using the suggested "House Rules" awesome... if they don't that is fine too. As long as all players are on the same page as far as the rules to be used in a given game and everyone knows what the consequences of that will be. As a designer, all you can do is suggest what will make for the best play experience for players to play the scenario in accordance with it's design intent. If you've done that, then you've done your job. YMMV.





< Message edited by GrumpyMel -- 7/6/2015 5:23:22 PM >

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RE: Halt - sort of - 7/7/2015 7:40:01 AM   
ernieschwitz

 

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Thanks for that GrumpyMel. I have had some of the same thoughts, recently, but you nailed it. So I have decided to just take a break from developing GD for a while. I want to that I am sorry if this has scared anyone from playing the mod, and caused a bad feeling in the community. That was not my intention.

I was trying to protect my work, and I guess I went a little over board. Or in other words I overreacted. Of course people can play any way that they want to, and while it was my intention to try and call to attention a problem, that made me feel bad, I shouldn´t try to influence games in progress.

So, I am sorry, and I forgive people, if they need it, for playing the game the way they want, even if it is in a way i do not condone, or intend.

(in reply to GrumpyMel)
Post #: 27
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