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RE: Regiments marching through each other - 6/30/2015 5:44:02 PM   
Redmarkus5


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I fully accept the criticism that Total War is unrealistic. In fact, I don't play the game - it annoyed me for that very reason.

BUT, one thing TW really does well is the graphical representation of troops in formation:

- No conga line
- No facing the wrong way
- No regiments passing through each other

And the TW units and terrain just LOOK so much better artistically.

The TW series succeeds because it is 'lucky'? I don't think so. It succeeds because it is visually appealing and accurate enough to satisfy most consumers. There's a marketing and sales lesson to be learned there somewhere, although personally I DO want a historically accurate simulation. That looks realistic. And appealing. And doesn't annoy me with nonsense unit moves.

Too much to ask, probably.




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RE: Regiments marching through each other - 6/30/2015 5:59:03 PM   
Redmarkus5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4


quote:

ORIGINAL: Prester John

My point is I would pay extra to see my men move using real drills of the era. I don't know if anybody else is a student of the training of soldiers, but drills won battles and warm my heart a little to see it displayed on the screen.


+1 and Amen to that!


PJ (if I may?) I was an infantry recruit training officer for several years. The key problem I have long reported with SoW is that the units take their guide from the center of the formation - they don't wheel on their extreme left or right marker, they wheel around their central point. This leads to a completely unrealistic scenario with men running to catch up, walking backwards and crossing each other in the crazy dance we all know and love.

The men on the inside of the wheeling movement should 'mark time', remaining stationary, while the men on the outer limit move at marching pace. The speed of the others depends on their position within the unit.




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< Message edited by redmarkus4 -- 6/30/2015 7:00:47 PM >


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RE: Regiments marching through each other - 7/1/2015 9:44:24 AM   
PresbyterJohn

 

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Not that I have attempted to study how the little men move in detail, but I think their "only" way to move is by wheeling in extended line. They should be able to resize their frontage, form, retire in close order and turn about in a manner indicating they have companies as part of battalions.

And then there's the arguement about ranks of two or ranks of three .....

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RE: Regiments marching through each other - 7/1/2015 12:42:20 PM   
Redmarkus5


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They can move in column along roads as well. They automatically form line when they come within range of the enemy, which is a very good feature of the game in my view.

A simple solution to the number of ranks issue would be (dare I say it?) the one used by TW, which allows the player to define the precise frontage and orientation of any unit. The number of ranks that will result is displayed on the map in advance.

Doctrine aside, men in battle will (independently or as directed) tend to conform to the combined influences of terrain, numbers, direction and strength of the enemy, as well as morale and training. When fighting from a sunken lane or sandpit, for example, Allied infantry at Waterloo proved themselves quite capable of using common sense - they didn't attempt to form ranks as the game suggests; they adapted to the ground they found themselves on. No army in history has won by doing otherwise. There is the parade ground and drill book, and then there is the reality of battle.

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RE: Regiments marching through each other - 7/1/2015 1:15:44 PM   
PresbyterJohn

 

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In the Napoleonic era the reality of battle for many soldiers was the drillbook. Depending on the battlefield and the tactical situation the defender will most likely have more options regarding the individual disposition of soldiers. But effective manoeuvre in battle required the execution of those drills learnt on the parade ground. Column was an effective way of moving from A to B and line was the formation for bringing fire to bear and moving the enemy off the patch of dirt you wanted. The best trained troops could execute their drills faster than milita, and the well drilled troops will have much more confidence in their own ability (less likely to run away). And drills applied to all arms, not just infantry.

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RE: Regiments marching through each other - 7/1/2015 9:37:14 PM   
gunship24

 

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What you see there in the screenshot is the unfortunate result of a battalion about face and moving. The right then becomes the left, and vice versa, and the sprites swap over. We do have an About Face command that could be used but then the direction of movement needs to be calculated relatively so the units current facing, even more for the AI to do. Things like this we would love to avoid but hopefully we deliver on so much more that you find historic, and not to mention fun. When lines are going in the right direction the way they wiggle looks really good in my opinion. I will add the feedback to the powers that be though.

Having said all that we are only on V1.00 so plenty of time to come up with inventive ways to improve all aspects, including movement.

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RE: Regiments marching through each other - 7/2/2015 7:44:39 AM   
PresbyterJohn

 

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The last thing I ever coded on was a PDP-11 so treat this comment with appropriate scorn.

Given that the current formations manoeuvre "by the centre" of the battalion as a whole it would be more accurate to code for subunit "flags" to represent the companies. Each company would then behave as the battalion currently does, wheeling about it's central "flag position". But the company start and end positions do not have to be the same relative to it's neighbours. Each company would move to the best free spot in the line or column when a manoeuvre is being plotted. The about face and move scenario would see the companies dance a bit, front rank men would still be front rank men, but the right flank company would become the left flank company.


< Message edited by Prester John -- 7/2/2015 8:45:02 AM >

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RE: Regiments marching through each other - 7/2/2015 8:44:33 AM   
JamesLxx

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prester John

The last thing I ever coded on was a PDP-11 so treat this comment with appropriate scorn.

Given that the current formations manoeuvre "by the centre" of the battalion as a whole it would be more accurate to code for subunit "flags" to represent the companies. Each company would then behave as the battalion currently does, wheeling about it's central "flag position". But the company start and end positions do not have to be the same relative to it's neighbours. Each company would move to the best free spot in the line or column when a manoeuvre is being plotted. The about face and move scenario would see the companies dance a bit, front rank men would still be front rank men, but the right flank company would become the left flank company.



I second this excellent suggestion!

In addition - To keep brigades in liner formation a regiment with both flanks covered by its neighbours should have the wheeling command "locked out". A regiment with one flank covered should be limited to moving only its free flank using the already programmed 'wheel back' command which keeps its attached flank attached to the formation - ie the "refuse flank" manoeuvre. This will stop the situation where individual regiments wheel out of line just to get a better shooting angle - which breaks up the line formation - and then the now individual regiments finding their flanks exposed or trying to readjust for marginally better shooting angle wheel again and again...

This will also realistically limit the manoeuvrability of a brigade line formation to small forward/back/oblique moves for readjustment - or the simple advance forward. For brigade manoeuvres the various column formations are both practical and historically right.

These suggestions from myself and others are not just for visual appeal. If regiments and brigades behaved in a way that mirrors historical reality then you would get historical results. IE: if a line breaks up into individual regiments in all directions then the combat result would be different from one that held the line. At the operational level SOWW is outstanding...but at the tactical level it needs work. Just imagine the end masterpiece if it were complete!

< Message edited by JamesL -- 7/2/2015 12:56:18 PM >

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RE: Regiments marching through each other - 7/2/2015 8:46:22 PM   
RebBugler


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JamesL

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prester John

The last thing I ever coded on was a PDP-11 so treat this comment with appropriate scorn.

Given that the current formations manoeuvre "by the centre" of the battalion as a whole it would be more accurate to code for subunit "flags" to represent the companies. Each company would then behave as the battalion currently does, wheeling about it's central "flag position". But the company start and end positions do not have to be the same relative to it's neighbours. Each company would move to the best free spot in the line or column when a manoeuvre is being plotted. The about face and move scenario would see the companies dance a bit, front rank men would still be front rank men, but the right flank company would become the left flank company.



I second this excellent suggestion!

In addition - To keep brigades in liner formation a regiment with both flanks covered by its neighbours should have the wheeling command "locked out". A regiment with one flank covered should be limited to moving only its free flank using the already programmed 'wheel back' command which keeps its attached flank attached to the formation - ie the "refuse flank" manoeuvre. This will stop the situation where individual regiments wheel out of line just to get a better shooting angle - which breaks up the line formation - and then the now individual regiments finding their flanks exposed or trying to readjust for marginally better shooting angle wheel again and again...

This will also realistically limit the manoeuvrability of a brigade line formation to small forward/back/oblique moves for readjustment - or the simple advance forward. For brigade manoeuvres the various column formations are both practical and historically right.

These suggestions from myself and others are not just for visual appeal. If regiments and brigades behaved in a way that mirrors historical reality then you would get historical results. IE: if a line breaks up into individual regiments in all directions then the combat result would be different from one that held the line. At the operational level SOWW is outstanding...but at the tactical level it needs work. Just imagine the end masterpiece if it were complete!


Very useful constructive criticism, got me thinking about the advantages of having the basic unit starting at the company level. Actually a lot discussed here could be modded, and to represent large battles it would probably need to be at least SR10 scaled (1:10 sprite ratio). Still other hurtles that coding would have to address, not to mention an overhaul of the drills.csv and some other files.

But nevertheless, a positive discussion of possible ways to move SOW more toward better realistic representations rather than just comparing it with other games that use modeling engines that only display a few thousand sprites...SOW displays tens of thousands and it's AI challenges most Armchair Generals.

Thank you Gentlemen...

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RE: Regiments marching through each other - 7/2/2015 11:11:42 PM   
aaatoysandmore

 

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Ditto on the AI challenges most Armchair Generals. I just went back and played the 2nd Second Manassas and the AI is sooooo superb in that game. Playing against the Union is a masterpiece as they are like the Zulu they just keep coming and coming regiment after regiment. Great game and great series I don't care if it doesn't look totally historical. I think it's so silly to grade a game on looks. If it was Bilbo Baggins out there vs the whole armies of Mordor I'd still love it even if they did do circles to make lines.

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RE: Regiments marching through each other - 7/3/2015 11:12:19 AM   
PresbyterJohn

 

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I won't pretend to know the significance of the sprite ratio but is it significant to the size of the battalion? Some Napoleonic battalions at full strength could have a strength of 1000 men on the field (ten companies of one hundred men), but more likely 800 prior to a period of campaigning. 500-600 might be reasonable for a veteran battalion mid-campaign. Miniatures rules with battalions as the manoeuvre units would have a basing of one figure to 50-60 men and this is visually appealing (to me at least).

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RE: Regiments marching through each other - 7/3/2015 11:34:02 AM   
zakblood


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quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

I fully accept the criticism that Total War is unrealistic. In fact, I don't play the game - it annoyed me for that very reason.

BUT, one thing TW really does well is the graphical representation of troops in formation:

- No conga line
- No facing the wrong way
- No regiments passing through each other

And the TW units and terrain just LOOK so much better artistically.

The TW series succeeds because it is 'lucky'? I don't think so. It succeeds because it is visually appealing and accurate enough to satisfy most consumers. There's a marketing and sales lesson to be learned there somewhere, although personally I DO want a historically accurate simulation. That looks realistic. And appealing. And doesn't annoy me with nonsense unit moves.

Too much to ask, probably.





i play all the TW games with plenty of mods, while i agree it's unrealistic, it sure is fun, don't own this one as yet as no time to play as i spend all my time atm testing, but will get it before xmas....

as it's a good game

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RE: Regiments marching through each other - 7/3/2015 3:35:03 PM   
aaatoysandmore

 

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Yeah, Empire and Napoleon Total War are a couple of my favorites.

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RE: Regiments marching through each other - 7/4/2015 9:02:35 AM   
Redmarkus5


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So I am still confused. What is it that the Total War devs CAN do, but which the SoW devs apparently CAN'T do that makes the TW units move much more realistically, without the SoW snaking and conga dancing?

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RE: Regiments marching through each other - 7/4/2015 4:59:37 PM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

So I am still confused. What is it that the Total War devs CAN do, but which the SoW devs apparently CAN'T do that makes the TW units move much more realistically, without the SoW snaking and conga dancing?


Didn't you get the memo? You're supposed to shut up, accept it, and buy it

edit: That's the impression one gets from a pair of fanbois.

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 7/5/2015 5:38:45 PM >


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RE: Regiments marching through each other - 7/4/2015 5:18:24 PM   
RebBugler


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quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

So I am still confused. What is it that the Total War devs CAN do, but which the SoW devs apparently CAN'T do that makes the TW units move much more realistically, without the SoW snaking and conga dancing?


Instead of being confused, perhaps you could help out some if you would like to see SOW improvements. Maybe compare files with games you like of the same genre and relay some specifics; i.e.: formations, engagement procedures, etc. Other folks in this thread are offering useful, thought out, options to improve the SOW system.

We at SOW are not in denial, we know the game isn't perfect. Short of converting to a modeling type engine, we are constantly seeking ways to improve upon what we do best, epic proportioned 'musket war' simulations.

Many of the things you kvetch about could be fixed immediately, if we slow the game down...halt, reform, move. However, then we open the door to a whole new batch of negative fodder by slowing down what is already a slow genre by nature - musket wars. This is why marketing these type games is always a gamble as they appeal more to a smaller base of intellectual, historically minded folks. You included, friend!



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RE: Regiments marching through each other - 7/4/2015 9:09:34 PM   
Gunfreak

 

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A few points

1. Total war deals with a maximum of 40 units pr side. If sow did that I'm sure each unit would mach and wheel perfectly. Instead it deals with sevral hundred, possibly thousands.
2. Total war units have 1 formation (same formation no mater how deep or wide you make it, so it has very few things to keep track of.
3. Sow uses an engine that traces back to take command 1st bull run. This is a legitimate "complaint" that effects alot of the game in negative fashions (like performance, graphics, unit movement ect. You could argue that it was time to make a new engine before Waterloo, but I'm sure thd team had to make do, hopefully waterloo will sell well, and they can make expansion packs to it, while they build a brand new engine for the 3rd installment of sow.

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RE: Regiments marching through each other - 7/5/2015 1:48:13 AM   
aaatoysandmore

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

So I am still confused. What is it that the Total War devs CAN do, but which the SoW devs apparently CAN'T do that makes the TW units move much more realistically, without the SoW snaking and conga dancing?


Didn't you get the memo? You're supposed to shut up, accept it, and buy it


Yeah, good point!

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RE: Regiments marching through each other - 7/5/2015 1:49:36 AM   
aaatoysandmore

 

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quote:

while they build a brand new engine for the 3rd installment of sow.


Yeah, like an ancients game an engine.

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RE: Regiments marching through each other - 7/5/2015 9:58:41 AM   
Gunfreak

 

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I hope they'll stick to the last 500 years if history.

Tactically speaking medieval snd ancients are simple, while not super6 simple like i used to think. Its still quite basic.

I can see the 30 years war work. All wars from late 1600s to napoleonic period.

I hope if they make a new engine, they either make a new acw game, a game about the 28th century, or a napoleonic game again. Those are the periods scourge of war work best.


Also forgot to mention, total war still uses the warscape engine it has used since empire, which more or less ruined rome 2.

So if a company with over 100 million in the game budget, also keep reusing the same game engine for years, one can see how a small indy dev team must do the sane.

< Message edited by Gunfreak -- 7/5/2015 10:59:25 AM >

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RE: Regiments marching through each other - 7/5/2015 10:37:16 AM   
pjsynnott


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RebBugler

Instead of being confused, perhaps you could help out some if you would like to see SOW improvements. Maybe compare files with games you like of the same genre and relay some specifics; i.e.: formations, engagement procedures, etc. Other folks in this thread are offering useful, thought out, options to improve the SOW system.


The problem seems to be less about the formations themselves, than the shapes they make when changing formation, or making drastic facing changes, particularly while moving.

As far as I've noticed, the conga line doesn't happen when units are changing formation while stationary. I'm no programmer, so I don't know what is and isn't possible with the game engine, but one approach that might be worthy of consideration would be to prevent units from changing formation while on the move. If a move involves arriving in a new formation, then have the unit change formation before it begins its move or after it arrives at the new destination (more risky, but very historical for the French!), instead of en route. Whenever a unit needs to relocate, particularly to a location that isn't straight ahead of it, have it sort out its correct formation and correct facing (with a lateral move by-the flank if necessary, or wheeling, obliquing if possible) before it begins the actual move.

Another way to avoid the conga line might be to change the way the sprites are displayed while moving. If the alignment is going to be sufficiently disrupted, then have the sprites form a "clump" from which the new formation or facing will emerge.



< Message edited by psynnott -- 7/5/2015 11:38:04 AM >

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RE: Regiments marching through each other - 7/5/2015 12:02:53 PM   
JamesLxx

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RebBugler

Many of the things you kvetch about could be fixed immediately, if we slow the game down...halt, reform, move. However, then we open the door to a whole new batch of negative fodder by slowing down what is already a slow genre by nature - musket wars. This is why marketing these type games is always a gamble as they appeal more to a smaller base of intellectual, historically minded folks. You included, friend!



Reb - If formations can be fixed immediately then please make it happen! I for one want formations that halt-reform-move as they did historically. It would look right and tactical combat would play out right. As a consequence yes it would slow down an already slow genre...but I believe your historically minded target audience would prefer this to ahistorical results. Perhaps the slower 'realistic formation combat model' could be made as an option giving players the choice...

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RE: Regiments marching through each other - 7/5/2015 12:55:57 PM   
TDefender


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quote:

I believe your historically minded target audience would prefer this to ahistorical results.


Absolutely agree

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RE: Regiments marching through each other - 7/5/2015 2:18:21 PM   
Tim1966


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We have one programmer (part time), two artists (part time), a couple of designers (part time) and mapmakers (part time), one lead tester (part time) and about 8 regular testers (part time). We have to build on what we have from SOWGB. We can't just build a new engine over night.

If you haven't programmed or built a game you don't really know whats involved - I certainly didn't before I started working on SOWGB. You change one little thing and breaks so many other things, you make compromises and choices to get the game to run better. We don't have a massive full time team.

No one has to shut up, accept and buy the game - we built a game we are justifiably proud of and are constantly on the boards listening to suggestions and helping modders and we constantly debate in the team lots of the suggestions on the boards. We are pleased when people like it and try to improve it all the time and accept and listen to all suggestions. We accept a lot of people won't like it.

I was a massive TW fan - I loved Shogun and Medieval but they made a decision to go down the graphics route - we went for scale and being as historically accurate as we could whilst still keeping the game fun and moving along. Thats the difference between the games - their AI is well know for not being great - they have no formations - just blocks but its does look amazing. Our Ai is pretty good, the scale huge and the maps accurate. Pay you money and take your choice but please don't accuse us of not listening or caring.

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RE: Regiments marching through each other - 7/5/2015 4:36:24 PM   
Aurelian

 

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Oops

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 7/5/2015 5:37:56 PM >


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RE: Regiments marching through each other - 7/7/2015 10:41:58 AM   
PresbyterJohn

 

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I'm not strictly a fan of realism. A lot of people who think they know "realism" don't know their arse from their elbow. But if the battle on the screen matches the fun I have on the Napoleonic miniatures battlefield then A+.

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RE: Regiments marching through each other - 7/8/2015 8:11:56 PM   
aaatoysandmore

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prester John

I'm not strictly a fan of realism. A lot of people who think they know "realism" don't know their arse from their elbow. But if the battle on the screen matches the fun I have on the Napoleonic miniatures battlefield then A+.


As far as the 'battle', it does.

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RE: Regiments marching through each other - 7/9/2015 8:25:05 PM   
oho_slith

 

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quote:

any of the things you kvetch about could be fixed immediately, if we slow the game down...halt, reform, move. However, then we open the door to a whole new batch of negative fodder by slowing down what is already a slow genre by nature - musket wars. This is why marketing these type games is always a gamble as they appeal more to a smaller base of intellectual, historically minded folks. You included, friend!


Please don't think, a realistic slower game which looks correct would sell worse.

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RE: Regiments marching through each other - 7/9/2015 8:43:28 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prester John
A lot of people who think they know "realism" don't know their arse from their elbow.


I might not know "realism", but I know that a conga-line is not it...I'd probably be happy if I could play without getting slapped in the face by visual weirdness. Whenever weird stuff like this happens in tactical games it blows immersion for me.

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RE: Regiments marching through each other - 7/10/2015 11:34:46 AM   
PresbyterJohn

 

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Oh I find the dancing lines very distracting. Very. Can't watch it in fact. I'd much prefer to see the troops in fixed blocks(bases), roughly two figures per company if fighting with battalions. If going up a level then four figures per base representing a battalion for multi corps battles but then you lose the details ie skirmishers. Now for the argument about realism ....

And I want dice.

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