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Corsica and Sardinia - 6/7/2015 10:39:00 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

Once you have Sardinia, Corsica has no hope.


I don't believe the Axis can hold anywhere against determined Allied assault forever. The question is how much can you make them pay? How much to make fighting for it a 'win' even after the islands are lost?

quote:

Between bombing out the 4 ports, and having naval control from Sardinia, you have no chance of holding Corsica.


How late would you consider obtaining Corsica and Sardinia to be a 'problem'?

quote:

Plus I retarget my 6th TF on turn one to hit Corsica later if I need it too. If I do land that way, Corsica would be in ruins without hope of supply.


How many divisions would you plan to send to liberate Sardinia and Corsica?
How many task forces would you devote to the task?
Do you plan to land on them at a specific time period?
How do you plan to respond if after the Italian surrender Corsica and Sardinia are just a black hole?

quote:

Sardinia is just as easily taken, as it has only 4 ports too. If you can't get supplies, you can't hold them. Island hopping 101.


I can't hold them forever, but how long of me holding them creates problems for what else you want to accomplish in the Med?
If it is Dec '43 and you have 10-20 divisions, with 2-5 TFs, committed to clearing Sardinia, and I still own half the island with little more than three divisions, who is getting the strategic win?

quote:

It's too easy for the Allies to bomb out all the ports. Once that happens, nothing heavy can get in or out; at that point the Germans have to rely on airlifts. While workable, that could get very expensive in transport planes, and any heavy equipment will be left behind. Airlift is unreliable, expensive, and messy.


Bombers devoted to trying to close ports (which is actually not easy considering they get automatic priority repairs and having a handful of engineers available isn't difficult - they help with the digging beforehand anyway) aren't bombing the Reich.
I setup most of my defenses in the first two turns. I usually see the depots in Sardinia fully stocked before Italy surrenders. Being on the defensive isn't very costly overall in supplies, and German units eat lighter.

quote:

I can see merit to putting a Regt in every port on Corsica; this would lock out the Italians, and prevent the Allies from easy support. I would keep Airlift nearby for a quick extraction. If the Allies show up on even one beach, though, it would be time to bug out for me. Germans could drop a Fort Zone in each port, but a fort zone by itself could be taken by the Italians.


Check the Italian surrender rules. The Germans have additional units at their disposal to help counter the Italian Problem. Security units can also serve to draw out the island liberation afterwards, forcing battles for every hex, and possibly getting reserve backstop from 'real' combat units.

quote:

It may also be possible for the Allies to counter that Corsica move by airlifting in troops, and supplying by air; tricky, but if the Island is isolated by sea I think the Allies can probably take it that way. They just need 1 para Div to take a port, and it's probably over for Germany. Allies should have access to at least one airfield when Italy surrenders.


Security units are very light to air transport, and they hardly require any supplies. They can generate decent defensive CV in FZs on rough terrain if the digging has already been done. Enough to thwart a lone infantry division, especially if one of the aforementioned 'real' combat regiments activates from reserve.
If someone tries to liberate a port with 1 airborne division they're going to become POWs.
Post #: 1
RE: Corsica and Sardinia - 6/8/2015 1:59:12 AM   
marion61

 

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I want Sardinia before mid-Aug and Corsica by late Sept. Even against a committed defense has no hope of being more than a speed bump. I hit the ports to keep you from escaping, not to close your supplies off. Naval interdiction will isolate any units on either island. You can fly supply, but that might buy you a turn or two at most.

With so many potential beaches in Southern Sardinia, how would you defend it on turn 2? You might get a division to a port but you couldn't unload till t2. 1 PzGrn division and static Italians can't cover every beach and the ports that might be invaded. Plus that unit unloading would find the port trashed again on t2 and might not be able to unload. Sardinia falls, Corsica falls.

I would consider it a strategic win if they were held till Nov.

And remember that these are the things I've found that work for me, and I'm only offering my advice.

(in reply to Seminole)
Post #: 2
RE: Corsica and Sardinia - 6/8/2015 12:28:15 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

I want Sardinia before mid-Aug and Corsica by late Sept. Even against a committed defense has no hope of being more than a speed bump.


Roughly how many divisions do you expect to send in each case?

quote:

With so many potential beaches in Southern Sardinia, how would you defend it on turn 2?


I wrote that wrong. I meant turn 3, the second German turn, I would have almost all of my defenses on the island and in place. On turn 2 (first German turn) you can send an FJ and Corps HQ to join the 90th PzG Div. You only need 5 Security units in the various garrison cities, but the rest provide a very small bump to garrison CV for their regions, so I put them on trains to southern France and N Italy. On turn 3, the second German turn, they can be flown/shipped into Corsica and Sardinia with basically 1 transport squadron (German or Italian) apiece.
These forces allow you to cover all the frozen Italian units, so that in the event of an Italian surrender they are immediately interned. If the Allies invade early, then they fight with you.
If the Allied player is expecting to see the islands open up after the Italian surrender he is left scratching his head.
Once he invades he has a lot of units to wade through. Depending where and with how many he comes in he can be boxed on the beaches by terrain and fortification levels. If you have to fight for almost every hex, those islands are much worse than speed bumps. More like Jamaican potholes!

quote:

You might get a division to a port but you couldn't unload till t2. 1 PzGrn division and static Italians can't cover every beach and the ports that might be invaded. Plus that unit unloading would find the port trashed again on t2 and might not be able to unload. Sardinia falls, Corsica falls.


Eventually, without a doubt those islands fall. My goal is raise the price in time, effort, and blood. I see people giving them away, and I think it is a mistake.
I have two games right now in Dec '43 and we're fighting on Sardinia. In game 1, on Christmas, the Allies had 14 divisions ashore, but only occupied 6 hexes. I managed with only 2 FJ and 1 PzG Div to push two of the Allied divisions (sitting alone, on clear terrain) into the sea - 10k losses to ~500 for me in just that week.
The other game at this point has something like 20 Allied divisions on the island. He owns about half of it now (I scouted with an FJ and forgot to put it back in its fort at the end of the turn, so he created a hole in my line that would not have occurred otherwise that turn), and I'm still just fighting him with 3 (soon to be 2 because of EF withdrawal) real divisions, the rest is security units and two brigades. In this battle he used 3 TFs to make landings in the north and south, and has devoted additional TFs to trying to close the ports. I feel like I'm winning tying up all these forces just to clear out a defending force maybe 1/10th the attacker's size.

quote:

I would consider it a strategic win if they were held till Nov.


That's kind of been my thinking as well. If I can tie them up in the islands until November then the weather is worse for trying to make a follow up mainland invasion and we start threatening prep for invading northern Europe.

quote:

And remember that these are the things I've found that work for me, and I'm only offering my advice.


Aye, as am I. So far defending these islands has worked very well for me, and I haven't seen anyone try what I've been doing. I currently have two other opponents (from this forum) with games that just started, so with an idea of what I'm up to it will be interesting to see how they decide to deal with it. It has flummoxed the folks that weren't expecting it so far.

(in reply to marion61)
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RE: Corsica and Sardinia - 6/8/2015 12:50:09 PM   
soeren01

 

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In my newest game the AI did garrison every port on Sicily and Corsica at the time of Italys surrender. I had to prep an Amphib and conduct a landing to get a port. Not so difficult, but very time consuming.
On the gripping hand, can you ignore Sardinia and Corsica and just do a row of behind the front landings in Italy ?

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(in reply to Seminole)
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RE: Corsica and Sardinia - 6/8/2015 3:52:28 PM   
carlkay58

 

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soren01 - you can't ignore the islands if you wish to invade north of Salerno. You need the airfields on the islands to allow your air to have good fighter coverage over the beach heads further north of that. Any invasion south of Naples can easily be blocked with great defensive lines by the Axis well before Rome. You could invade south of there, advance to the Axis defensive line in the Naples area, and then do a second invasion but this is resource and time extensive.

If the AI/Axis player garrisons all of the ports on the island then the Italians who come over to the Allies are unsupplied. You then have to airlift supplies in OR have an invasion for a supply point. If you wait until the surrender, then by the time your invasion hits the Italians are about to withdraw. So you have to plan an invasion. One brigade/regiment invasions will work on Sardinia as long as you invade in an out of the way place. You need at least a full division to invade Corsica - otherwise it is too easy to push it back into the sea even with limited German units to do so. Rooting out all of the fortified ports is a major operation for the Allies. I have found that I have to commit the full 5th US Army against the islands (the two British Corps on Sardinia and the US and FF Corps on Corsica) in order to have the islands ready for my mainland Italy invasion. It is a very fine line and there is a lot of pressure on the Allies to get things done quickly if they hope to have a chance at Rome in 43.

Personally I would lose the four or so German divisions on the islands to make the Allies concentrate forces and time on them. WitW's victory conditions reward an Axis player who causes Allied casualties for expansion. The more blood everything costs the Allies the better it is for the Germans.

(in reply to soeren01)
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RE: Corsica and Sardinia - 6/8/2015 7:54:13 PM   
marion61

 

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With the EF box on I have held the islands, but the allied player was also inexperienced. With the EF box you have a few divisions to throw away, although I'd never commit an elite unit to the islands. Your chances of losing them are great even if you can airlift them back out.

Yes, I pull air from RAF Coastal Command on turn 1 so they can be used on turn 2.

As for how many divisions I put ashore depends on the situation. I have more than enough men to finish the job, because I don't let all those units in England just sit there till 44.

I don't know the whole situation in your other games, but your opponent may not fully understand the air war yet. Otherwise, every unit you had on Sardinia could be isolated in a couple of turns. If you break the chain of supply, those units become just a bunch of men waiting to be prisoners.

(in reply to Seminole)
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RE: Corsica and Sardinia - 6/9/2015 7:15:44 AM   
soeren01

 

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Once you have a Port on the islands, mopping up is relativly easy (at least against the AI). using the French I usually throw the axis units out of the ports and leave them sitting somewhere to whither away. Each unit on the islands is one unit less on the mainland.


< Message edited by soeren01 -- 6/9/2015 8:16:15 AM >


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RE: Corsica and Sardinia - 6/9/2015 12:42:10 PM   
carlkay58

 

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I find that attacking the units on the islands helps raise the morale of my allied units. Since US units start at a morale of 55 this is a very worthy thing.

(in reply to soeren01)
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RE: Corsica and Sardinia - 6/9/2015 1:07:03 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

Yes, I pull air from RAF Coastal Command on turn 1 so they can be used on turn 2.


For isolating Sardinia and Corsica, do you prefer auto naval patrol, or do you specify your own directives to accomplish the task?

quote:

As for how many divisions I put ashore depends on the situation. I have more than enough men to finish the job, because I don't let all those units in England just sit there till 44.


Here's the situation: Imagine the first week of August you achieve a Italian surrender, but the islands of Corsica and Sardinia go dark. Nary a peep from the Italian defenders you expected to switch sides. Nothing.
How many initial divisions are you sending in that situation?
I'm sure you have 'more than enough', but how many are you bringing in the beginning?
I can have 20 counters on the map in Sardinia, not counting FZs. That takes time to wade through, even if they're not crack units.

Another aspect of requiring a large force to land on Sardinia is the more units you have to get back off of Sardinia when you're done.

quote:

I don't know the whole situation in your other games, but your opponent may not fully understand the air war yet. Otherwise, every unit you had on Sardinia could be isolated in a couple of turns. If you break the chain of supply, those units become just a bunch of men waiting to be prisoners.


Isolated units with access to a depot aren't nearly the muppets they used to be (and nothing as bad as WitE).
The real problem is one of time. I do not expect the Axis to hold the islands till the end of the game, but I expect to hold them long enough to create timetable trouble for the Allies accomplishing their goals in the Med during '43.

(in reply to marion61)
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RE: Corsica and Sardinia - 6/9/2015 8:14:52 PM   
marion61

 

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Why would I wait till August to invade Sardinia? That would allow you to put all that defense up.

I think the most I've ever used on either island is 2 infantry, 1 armor, and 1 airborne division.

(in reply to Seminole)
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RE: Corsica and Sardinia - 6/10/2015 12:32:39 AM   
Seminole


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quote:

Why would I wait till August to invade Sardinia? That would allow you to put all that defense up.


I misread your comment about getting Sardinia by mid-August, I presumed you meant invade there in mid August.
I'll have the defenses in place on the second German turn, turn 3. Do you typically invade Sardinia before Italy surrenders?

quote:

I think the most I've ever used on either island is 2 infantry, 1 armor, and 1 airborne division.


Interesting. I've had opponents unable to make headway off the beaches with a dozen divisions.

(in reply to marion61)
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RE: Corsica and Sardinia - 6/10/2015 10:26:26 AM   
carlkay58

 

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mekelore - you have obviously had better luck in your opponents than I have. The islands have required the entire 5th US Army for me for the last five or so versions unless I have help from the Italians. Even then it takes quite a bit.

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RE: Corsica and Sardinia - 6/10/2015 12:42:02 PM   
marion61

 

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I don't agree that it's been my opponents, so I don't believe it is that obvious. I've played people with less experience, and I've played Pelton and taken them that way. I've explained how I do it, and how many I do it with, and when I do it, and it's been against human's, not the ai. Questioning the quality of my opponents has little to do with it and doesn't lend itself to open conversation about this.

I've said this before, this is what works for me. I made no claim to be an expert, and it's just advice. You don't have to use it.

< Message edited by meklore61 -- 6/10/2015 1:55:05 PM >

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RE: Corsica and Sardinia - 6/10/2015 3:01:31 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

I don't agree that it's been my opponents, so I don't believe it is that obvious. I've played people with less experience, and I've played Pelton and taken them that way.


Pelton's efforts were in my view insufficient. He wasn't thinking 'outside the box' enough.
When a dozen security regiments get added to two divisions on the island, you HAVE to send more forces. You'll be outflanked and cut off if you don't.
As you noted in your most recent AAR, generating interdiction over rough terrain is tough, and most of the terrain in question is rough. A regiment of FJ with an FZ on rough terrain can easily put up 40-60+ CV. You're not waltzing through it in two or three weeks with 3 or 4 divisions.

quote:

I've explained how I do it, and how many I do it with, and when I do it,


Can you clarify the comment about 'mid-August'? Do you invade Sardinia prior to Italian surrender?
Do you begin prep to invade Corsica while the Sardinia liberation is underway?
I ask because I'm curious about your force allocation. To me the point of compelling a hard fight for the islands is to disrupt the Allied timetable as much as possible for '43. The Allied player has to be playing in some respects several turns ahead of what is happening at the moment (prepping invasions and allocating the necessary forces for those invasions). If you can introduce surprises and delays, force the re-allocation of assets from one mission to another, you're seizing the initiative as the German player.

quote:

and it's been against human's, not the ai. Questioning the quality of my opponents has little to do with it and doesn't lend itself to open conversation about this.


Actually, what your opponent chooses to do has everything to do with it. An ill-considered defense can certainly be worse than no defense of the islands at all, but I think you haven't run into a good defense of those islands yet.

quote:

I've said this before, this is what works for me. I made no claim to be an expert, and it's just advice. You don't have to use it.


Please don't take any criticisms personally. We're all just sharing info, experience, and opinions.
I'm also trying to point out that 'what works for you' has worked because of what your opponents have done (or not done).

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RE: Corsica and Sardinia - 6/10/2015 3:58:33 PM   
marion61

 

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This isn't subjective. Let's say p=port, n=naval, and i=isolation. P+N=I, and you can't mount a defense with isolated units, no matter how good you can play or not play.

Turn 1: Bomb all four ports on Sardinia. This will keep you from unloading too much heavy equipment on the axis turn. I also bomb Reggio and Messina. Recon Sardinia and Sicily for next turn, and if you really want to nail the coffin shut, fly naval on turn 1 so Sardinia is isolated on the axis turn. You can build and move units over, but on turn two naval will be locked down especially if recon shows reinforcements. I always pull air assets from England.

I retarget my Tf's and I usually use 7th Army, with two beaches, an air drop, and two or three follow on divisions. About a corps worth of men.

I've played axis a lot too, and I've yet to make a defense to this. You can hardly slow them down if your isolated. A timid allied player you may hold them, or if they stay with just taking the stock invasion, but if you want Sardinia there's not much the axis player can do. Flying into Sardinia might get you there, but once there you can't accomplish anything. I will move Italian units to Sardinia that are activated, but they might net me 100 allied casualties.

On turn 2 I land, and I pick spots so that I can pull some Tf's back, but if I saw trouble on Sardinia, I'd just use 3 TF's for a couple of turns to blockade your ports backed up by naval ad's. You'd lose a lot of planes just trying to keep one port open. The islands are too easily isolated by naval air power.





< Message edited by meklore61 -- 6/10/2015 5:06:56 PM >

(in reply to Seminole)
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RE: Corsica and Sardinia - 6/10/2015 4:31:32 PM   
NotOneStepBack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meklore61

This isn't subjective. Let's say p=port, n=naval, and i=isolation. P+N=I, and you can't mount a defense with isolated units, no matter how good you can play or not play.

Turn 1: Bomb all four ports on Sardinia. This will keep you from unloading too much heavy equipment on the axis turn. I also bomb Reggio and Messina. Recon Sardinia and Sicily for next turn, and if you really want to nail the coffin shut, fly naval on turn 1 so Sardinia is isolated on the axis turn. You can build and move units over, but on turn two naval will be locked down especially if recon shows reinforcements. I always pull air assets from England.

I retarget my Tf's and I usually use 7th Army, with two beaches, an air drop, and two or three follow on divisions. About a corps worth of men.

I've played axis a lot too, and I've yet to make a defense to this. You can hardly slow them down if your isolated. A timid allied player you may hold them, or if they stay with just taking the stock invasion, but if you want Sardinia there's not much the axis player can do. Flying into Sardinia might get you there, but once there you can't accomplish anything. I will move Italian units to Sardinia that are activated, but they might net me 100 allied casualties.

On turn 2 I land, and I pick spots so that I can pull some Tf's back, but if I saw trouble on Sardinia, I'd just use 3 TF's for a couple of turns to blockade your ports backed up by naval ad's. You'd lose a lot of planes just trying to keep one port open. The islands are too easily isolated by naval air power.







This is totally right. You can't hold the islands against an Allied player who knows what they are doing, and if you try, you will pay severly. All the allied player has to do it keep bombing the ports and the units on the island are screwed. It's not "thinking out side the box" it's a literal advantage the allied player has due to air superiority and having a base in N. Africa.

I really would like to see how you'd hold the islands against someone that knows the system. Seminole, if you want to play a game on the server as Axis and try it, I will take Allies and I doubt you will hold the islands.

< Message edited by NotOneStepBack -- 6/10/2015 5:40:31 PM >

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RE: Corsica and Sardinia - 6/10/2015 4:57:00 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

This is totally right. You can't hold the islands against an Allied player who knows what they are doing, and if you try, you will pay severly.


You cant' hold them forever, but you can hold them longer than the Allied player expects - and that's the point.

What is the 'severe price'? A division or two? Who cares about the security units, if I choose to not fly them out they'll reconstitute in time to do their backwater jobs in France and Italy. If I can tie up over a dozen allied divisions for weeks and weeks with two divisions, a brigade or two, and some security regiments, I think I'm coming out ahead while the clock is ticking louder and louder...

quote:

All the allied player has to do it keep bombing the ports and the units on the island are screwed. It's not "thinking out side the box" it's a literal advantage the allied player has due to air superiority and having a base in N. Africa.


The 'thinking outside the box' comment was directed at the fact people are looking at the costs and difficulties of supporting front line combat divisions on the islands. The key is using the security regiments to cover lots of ground. You entirely eliminate the threat of Italian turncoats, and compel the Allies to make a significant invasion to clear the islands. The goal in this is to delay establishment of Allied airbases to support an invasion of Italy north of Salerno.

You have to bomb the ports to over 95% damage to completely stop the flow of supplies, right? That requires a decent allocation of air groups, and even then it is likely a few construction battalions on the island can get the port back into working shape before the end of the week. Bombers sent to try and shut down those ports week after week are not bombing the Reich.
The only real 'shut down' is to park TFs offshore - which I welcome, because it means they're not prepping for the next invasion...

quote:

I really would like to see how you'd hold the islands against someone that knows the system.


I'd like to know how long it takes to take them from someone that knows the system.

This is mid-December. The ports have been blocked (with TFs), but I still have over 115k of supplies available:



My opponent is really throwing the kitchen sink at this point trying to make headway. This is the game where I accidentally left an FJ regiment out of the fort line I'd constructed to bottle an invasion in the SW, or he wouldn't even be threatening Cagliari yet.

(in reply to NotOneStepBack)
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RE: Corsica and Sardinia - 6/10/2015 5:07:59 PM   
marion61

 

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When did he invade Sardinia? And what's the naval around your ports in the picture? A tf alone does not stop supply from what I understand, just an enemy unit can't be adjacent to it while on ships. A tf doesn't shut the port off, but it lends it's naval interdiction to any naval air in the hex. You cut supply with naval air, the tf is there to lend a hand and stop you from leaving. All those units would be and should be isolated.

< Message edited by meklore61 -- 6/10/2015 6:09:37 PM >

(in reply to Seminole)
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RE: Corsica and Sardinia - 6/10/2015 5:19:56 PM   
NotOneStepBack


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In that picture, you are going to lose all of those units. The real cost is manpower, not the SEC units.

So do you want to play against me on the server? Full game. I'm allied, you are axis. No beachhead penalty. EF box off.

< Message edited by NotOneStepBack -- 6/10/2015 6:21:07 PM >

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RE: Corsica and Sardinia - 6/10/2015 5:57:48 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

When did he invade Sardinia?


I believe the invasion came about 5 or 6 weeks ago (turn 18 or 19). He went for mainland Italy first with landings at Foggia and Salerno, but things went poorly with most of 8th Army captured around Foggia and the U.S. withdrawing from Salerno unable to make any headway.
I have another ongoing game at almost this same point (and Allied predicament), and I've misplaced my thumb drive I was maintaining my AARs on at the moment, so I can't verify and don't completely trust my memory.

quote:

And what's the naval around your ports in the picture? A tf alone does not stop supply from what I understand, just an enemy unit can't be adjacent to it while on ships. A tf doesn't shut the port off, but it lends it's naval interdiction to any naval air in the hex. You cut supply with naval air, the tf is there to lend a hand and stop you from leaving.


TFs do shut off the flow of supplies.

quote:

All those units would be and should be isolated.


They are isolated, but they have access to a depot, so they're not suffering the most severe isolation effects that you associate with normal pockets.
He's making headway because he brought so many units. If he just brought 3 or 4 divisions he would get nowhere fast.
For now they seem to be holding their own:



quote:

In that picture, you are going to lose all of those units. The real cost is manpower, not the SEC units.


The ones I choose to not fly out will be lost, but you can fly out a security unit with a single transport squadron.
I have <20k men total in the security units that are under First Army (defending these islands) right now.
I don't think that is a very big loss manpower loss even if I saved none of them (which is not my intention).

quote:

So do you want to play against me on the server? Full game. I'm allied, you are axis. No beachhead penalty. EF box off.


I'd love to, but I have 3.5 games ongoing at the moment, and it's more than I can chew with things that flared in up in real life the last two weeks. When I get back down to no more than 2 games I'd definitely like to play.

(in reply to NotOneStepBack)
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RE: Corsica and Sardinia - 6/10/2015 7:11:37 PM   
carlkay58

 

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meklore - I think it is the case where you and I have a disagreement as to a strategy for the Axis. That is all. No reflection on either of our or our opponent's abilities.

I understand where you are coming from, I just put forth my opinion. I just feel that the Axis can benefit from not running away from the two islands and you disagree. That is all.

The cost to the Axis in manpower and equipment is well worth the Allies having to pay time and effort on taking the islands. But then I tend to be a 'hold to the last man' type of defender in what I consider to be key defensive areas. In this case I think the islands are key defensive areas because of the payoff that the Allies see in holding them. As far as I am concerned, the Axis have to fall back to the Gothic Line in northern Italy once the islands have fallen or they chance having many more units cut off and isolated in Italy. So the best delaying tactic and holding on to Italy is to delay the Allies in the islands for as long as possible.


(in reply to Seminole)
Post #: 21
RE: Corsica and Sardinia - 6/10/2015 7:11:43 PM   
marion61

 

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I would never wait till turn 18 to invade Sardinia. On turn 2 you could only offer a token resistance as the axis. I wouldn't wait that long to allow it to be fortified like you've done. Plus he should be hitting ports and railyards to kill your supply stocks.

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RE: Corsica and Sardinia - 6/10/2015 7:14:06 PM   
carlkay58

 

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I agree with meklore on that. The Allies cannot afford to put off the islands that far along. The Allies really NEED the islands for much to happen in the MTO. Once they have the islands, they threaten everywhere in the MTO - the entire western Italian coast and southern France.

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RE: Corsica and Sardinia - 6/10/2015 7:20:59 PM   
NotOneStepBack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meklore61

I would never wait till turn 18 to invade Sardinia. On turn 2 you could only offer a token resistance as the axis. I wouldn't wait that long to allow it to be fortified like you've done. Plus he should be hitting ports and railyards to kill your supply stocks.


Yep, on T2 you can only have a token defense and that is what we are saying. The islands are not defendable if they are taken right away. And since they are so vital for the med operations, you'd be stupid not to take them immediately.

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RE: Corsica and Sardinia - 6/10/2015 7:52:01 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

I would never wait till turn 18 to invade Sardinia.


If Chuck is reading he can chip in, but I believe he didn't expect to have to fight for them at all since most appear to have adopted the strategy of abandoning those islands.
He made invasions at Salerno and Foggia that occupied at least 4 of his TFs. The Salerno invasion never could get off the beaches, and was abandoned after I ****ed the balloon of the Foggia invasion, captured the ports, and sent most of 8th Army to POW camps. He was also supporting at least one temporary port in the toe during this time, so not much was available to try and take Sardinia until he was forced to abandon the two northern invasions and regroup.

quote:

On turn 2 you could only offer a token resistance as the axis.


What turn do you invade Sardinia?
It sounds like you're now going in against the Germans and Italians at the outset and not waiting for Italian surrender (which can't happen until August) - is that correct?

On turn 2 (the first German turn) there is already 90th PzG Div on the island. You can on the first turn ship in an FJ Div and corps HQ with construction battalions to be unloaded on the subsequent turn. The first turn I also rail my security units to southern France and northern Italy, along with my transport armada. On turn 3 I can airlift in all the security units I want. I typically cover all the existing Italian garrisons until surrender and fortify the ports of both Sardinia (first turn) and Corsica (one each subsequent turn). If you'd rather spend the AP on them you can even use FZs to 'cover' the Italian garrison forces and remove them from the map at Italian surrender, creates more counters for the Allies to wade through, and begins the process of digging in. It also frees up units to start digging on the key terrain (rough hexes near landing beaches).

Try it against yourself. Just ignore the bombing campaign and focus on what assets from each side you'd actually contribute to this theater and I'll think you'll see the potential that exists for the Germans throw sand in the gears after a few turns. Because the Battleground Italy scenario doesn't give the German player access to these units it can't be used as a platform to explore this strategy.

quote:

I wouldn't wait that long to allow it to be fortified like you've done. Plus he should be hitting ports and railyards to kill your supply stocks.


The real fortification values are the in the terrain itself. The key is to make the Allies fight for each inch of that favorable terrain.
You want him providing naval interdiction over all the ports of Sardinia, plus bombing the ports and RRs of same, meanwhile there is an invasion of Sicily to carry out, and a mainland Italy that begs for attention as well. There are only so many airgroups available in '43. The more dispersion of effort from the Allies the better from the Axis perspective.

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RE: Corsica and Sardinia - 6/10/2015 7:59:27 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

Yep, on T2 you can only have a token defense and that is what we are saying. The islands are not defendable if they are taken right away. And since they are so vital for the med operations, you'd be stupid not to take them immediately.


So what turn do you invade, and what do you invade them with typically?
On turn 3 I can have 2 divisions and a dozen security units, plus the Italians. What are you bringing that makes you think you'll take them 'right away' against that 'token' force?
You're going to have to batter your way across the island, and that takes valuable time. How many TFs are you going to be forced to devote to the task? How can that impinge on your timetable for invading the mainland?
You can see the progress my opponent has made, and that's with a HUGE invasion force hitting both the north and south simultaneously. A single TF beachhead would be much easier to contain.

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RE: Corsica and Sardinia - 6/10/2015 10:40:01 PM   
marion61

 

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I actually agree there is the potential for holding these islands longer than possible and slowing the allies, and yes I agree that is up to how your opponent plays as to weather I defend them or not. If he's doing anything to disrupt my supplies to Sardinia, I'm not going to waste two elite units that I need later. Once those guys surrender and come back, they come back at the national morale, and I can tell you that FJ division is worth any 3 infantry and defend better than mobile units.

I've held the islands for long periods of time, but that was because my opponent didn't want them too badly. I wouldn't waste those two precious divisions on such an one way mission. The security units I hadn't thought of before, but I use my security units at the center of the French Garrisons in case I need a little extra cv some turns.

I've had players try and defend the islands also, but from my experience they are easy to shut down, which any island is if you control the seas around it.

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RE: Corsica and Sardinia - 6/10/2015 11:38:31 PM   
NotOneStepBack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

quote:

Yep, on T2 you can only have a token defense and that is what we are saying. The islands are not defendable if they are taken right away. And since they are so vital for the med operations, you'd be stupid not to take them immediately.


So what turn do you invade, and what do you invade them with typically?
On turn 3 I can have 2 divisions and a dozen security units, plus the Italians. What are you bringing that makes you think you'll take them 'right away' against that 'token' force?
You're going to have to batter your way across the island, and that takes valuable time. How many TFs are you going to be forced to devote to the task? How can that impinge on your timetable for invading the mainland?
You can see the progress my opponent has made, and that's with a HUGE invasion force hitting both the north and south simultaneously. A single TF beachhead would be much easier to contain.



Look, you bomb all the ports of Sardinia on T1 and keep bombing them until you secure the entire island. There really isn't anyt other priority for your airforce down there in the beginning. You send the Americans over the Sicily and retarget the Brits to Sardinia. On T1 I move nearly all my air assets to the Med. T1 the Americans invade Sicily. On T2, I invade Cagliari port with 3 tf's the brits have. From there I land the entire British army on the island and by the time Sardinia is liberated because the Axis player cannot match my air power, and can't get anything on or off the island substantial, it falls easily. In the mean time, all 6 TF's are prepping for Italy with the other remaining army in North Africa. Once they land, the Italians surrender and you get Corsica. I've done it several times against a human, including Meklore.

You don't have air superiority or naval interdiction to hold the islands in the early game. The longest you can hold them is maybe September against a determined opponent, but it ultimately doesn't matter too much since those 6 TF's in N. Africa keep prepping. You only need the islands for their airbases

< Message edited by NotOneStepBack -- 6/11/2015 12:40:57 AM >

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RE: Corsica and Sardinia - 6/11/2015 7:05:38 AM   
soeren01

 

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I have to ask, WHY do you need the islands ?
The main advantage of the islands are there airfields. So, as allied player all I need are 1 or 2 good ports and the airfields. As long as the axis is not threatening my airfields, I don't care if they hold a part of the islands. I have to use a part of my airfield capacity for port attacks and naval interdiction but thats ok.
Or to go further, every unit on the islands is a unit not on Sicily or the mainland.

< Message edited by soeren01 -- 6/11/2015 8:06:03 AM >


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RE: Corsica and Sardinia - 6/11/2015 11:56:10 AM   
marion61

 

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Owning the islands outflanks Italy, and you can invade anywhere in the western Med., with air cover. That's a lot of beach front to cover with the small amount of forces, especially after Sept. when the new garrison values start. Being able to invade from southern France to southern Italy is a huge advantage and those islands are the keys.




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