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New 1941-45 Campaign scenario posted - 6/4/2015 3:22:42 AM   
JAMiAM

 

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Hi,

This is a very minor reworking of the standard 1941-45 Campaign scenario. It is designed to make the Lvov Gambit a bit more difficult to pull off. Please try this out, and let me know if the changes work as intended, and whether this skews the balance too much in favor of the Soviets.

What has changed? Actually, very little. I have repositioned about 2 dozen Soviet units and four Rumanian units. No unit's stats have been changed. Only their locations. No unit has been moved more than 5 hexes from its initial position, as per the Jan 22, 2015 official version of the scenario.

Why the changes? As most players know, the Lvov Gambit has long been the standard opening move for most Axis players. In my opinion, as well as many others, this opening creates a situation in the SW Front area which is grossly unhistorical, and greatly accelerates the Axis sweep through Poland and the Western Ukraine. Due to the IGO-UGO nature of the game, the Axis 1st turn special movement rates, the pre-knowledge of Soviet unit positioning and their inability to react during the Axis turn, along with the many dry-run iterations allowable for Axis players to develop the "perfect move", the Soviets are often placed in an unjustifiably bad position, right from the start.

What are the changes designed to accomplish? Primarily they are designed to mimic some minimal reactions to the standard path taken by AGS in its drive to the Rumanian border, that usually results in roughly half of SW Front's units being cut off on the 1st turn. The positions of the Soviet combat units have been slightly changed to take better advantage of some of the defensive features in the area. Some HQs have been repositioned, so to either be stacked with friendly units (to prevent easy displacement), while others have been slightly relocated to 'safer' rear areas so that they occupy hexes out of friendly zoc, in order to prevent the mass conversion of Soviet held rear areas to Axis control during the 1st Logistics phase. With this second point in mind, some minor Soviet combat units were relocated within the rear areas to exert friendly zoc over a larger, contiguous area to prevent mass conversion.

To prevent the Soviets from being able to simply rail out the otherwise trapped 6th, 12th, and 26th Armies, I have restored the Rumanian units positions to the Prut River that earlier versions had them occupying, slightly changed to allow them a very good chance of holding the river line, should the Soviet player be tempted to DOW Rumania, in an effort to clear the border rail line of ezocs. A dedicated push by the Axis should still be able to cut the Stanislav-Proskurov line, to the SE of Tarnopol. This should allow the Soviets to supply those armies, yet not rail them to safety in a likewise unhistorical fashion.

I fully expect that the possibility exists for clever players to figure out how to defeat these rather minor changes. Whether this comes from committing more units to AGS from AGC, taking alternate paths, or simply pocketing the troops on turn 2, or later, will be determined by the players choices and a bit of luck. In any event, I hope you like the changes and will give the scenario a try.

The scenario is attached in a zip file. Again, please give me feedback on how well this works, both short term, and long term.



Attachment (1)

< Message edited by JAMiAM -- 6/4/2015 6:40:30 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: New 1941-45 Campaign scenario posted - 6/4/2015 4:22:07 AM   
Peltonx


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I disagree

It was 100% historically possible.

1. your not as stupid as Stalin
2. I am not as stupid as Hitler


I am guessing I can blow your "fix" out of the water as was historically the fact of the matter.

I will play you under 1.08.04 rule set

1941 GC Sudden Death only so I don't have to waste my time beating your ass into the ground.

Server game
Locked HQ Support
Full FOW

House Rules:
No Para drops
No bombing of air bases more than 3 times a turn (after turn 1)
No bombing of HQ's unless stacked with a ground unit
No naval invasions before November 1941, none outside the 1939 Soviet borders before January 1943
In addition if Sevastopol is either isolated, or in German hands, none west of the Crimea,
which reflects the scope for air/naval interdiction not really reflected in the game.

Additional Auto VC:
If the Axis player holds
Leningrad, Moscow, Voronezh and Rostov concurrently at any time in 1941 he wins
an Auto Victory. No need to waste any ones time as we all know the end results based on past games if these cities fall in 1941.

Optional Rules Setup:

Mild Blizzard Rules
Random Weather
No 1-1 = 2-1

I will kick your ass.

Send the rule set to morvael so I know there are no cheats.

Bring it on bro.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bto3iHQDq4

Getting tired of winning all the time

You designed it but you still end up like this




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RE: New 1941-45 Campaign scenario posted - 6/4/2015 8:12:20 AM   
shane56

 

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Agree with Pelton,
the lvov option was possible in actuality, as it was actually proposed by OKH to do with 11th army launching out to meet panzer spear heads, only hitler for political reasons suspended it. If the generals had had their way it would have happened and again it was initially planned to do it.

This game puts us in charge of which ever side we choose, and no way will we blindly follow the rigid script of history, whats the point of doing this and playing this game..

how many people who have made it to 1942 have deliberately stuck their neck in the potential stalingrad noose and waited for the soviets to cut it off ?

one month after this game was launched I asked for the freezing of troops in rumania/hungary to be programmed out as we the human ie.. new management decide how we are going to operationally execute this game..


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RE: New 1941-45 Campaign scenario posted - 6/4/2015 9:38:25 AM   
JAMiAM

 

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Guys, you are misreading what I posted. Nowhere did I say it was "impossible" to pull off the Lvov Gambit. I did say it was unhistorical. Just as is committing extra forces to AGS (which I have nothing against, btw).

A weakness of the game is the way the territorial conversion occurs before the next player turn, and this leads to absolutely silly stuff like hexes that are adjacent to friendly HQs, and 150 miles away from the nearest enemy unit, suddenly becoming enemy controlled. When you couple the inability for one player to move in response to enemy attacks, the long turn length/high MP allowances and the 1st turn special movement rates, you end up with the ability to really abuse the system, particularly since the Soviets are here and there, just 10-20 miles from being in a defensible position, i.e., often just >< this far from being able to exert any zoc across a wide open path that everyone can cut in their sleep.

So, like I said, the changes are merely to positioning of the existing units in the Soviet and Rumanian OOBs, to avoid the worst abuses of the system. Surely, with the proper practice, force commitment, and luck, you could still get to the Rumanian border on turn 1. It's just not a gimme anymore.

Plus, it's completely optional. If you don't want to use it, and want to keep picking House Rule setups that practically guarantee you a victory, then feel free to ignore it. Go ahead and keep playing the same game you've already mastered. It's up to you.


< Message edited by JAMiAM -- 6/4/2015 10:46:42 AM >

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RE: New 1941-45 Campaign scenario posted - 6/4/2015 12:02:06 PM   
Peltonx


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Looks like a good option.

Nice work

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RE: New 1941-45 Campaign scenario posted - 6/4/2015 4:13:03 PM   
chaos45

 

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I'll have to take a look once I'm back home

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RE: New 1941-45 Campaign scenario posted - 6/4/2015 5:18:32 PM   
Flaviusx


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From: Southern California
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This is one of the major things that needs to be fixed in WITE2. Although we plainly have a lobby here insisting that this is all how it should be and will want to import this silliness into future iterations of the game.

As things presently stand it is impossible to get anything resembling a historical outcome in the south. It never happens. The game goes off the rails immediately, before the Soviet first turn.



< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 6/4/2015 6:21:18 PM >


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RE: New 1941-45 Campaign scenario posted - 6/6/2015 4:10:59 AM   
Sabre21


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Long before release many of us testers new of the ease in overrunning the southern front area in the opening turns. There was a time when taking Kiev in just a few turns was pretty easy.

Both myself and Joel worked on repositioning several of the Soviet units down south to lessen the impact of the opening attack. We didn't move them far, maybe a hex or two here and there just to slow down the onslaught. To the most part it worked. While cutting off the Soviets could still be done, it would take a major effort and a good amount of luck.

Unfortunately as time went on, several other folks got involved with tweaking the scenarios and all of the Soviet units were repositioned back to where they started. So I went on to working on various tactics like the checkerboard that could slow down the German player. After release, many players picked up on these tactics and developed their own. But as in any tactic, there is always a counter.

I agree with Flav that this needs to be fixed in WitE2. I think Jam is on the right track, that we need to look at the very core set of how the game functions and fix it there.

By the way, it has been a long while since I've been on the forum, it is good to see so many familiar names.

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RE: New 1941-45 Campaign scenario posted - 6/6/2015 5:41:55 AM   
JAMiAM

 

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Welcome back, Andy.

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RE: New 1941-45 Campaign scenario posted - 6/8/2015 2:40:24 PM   
Cavalry Corp

 

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From: Sampford Spiney Devon UK
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It would be nice if there was a player set up option allowing certain armies to set up with a certain few hexes like the old board games. Then many of these fixed opening moves would be fixed.

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RE: New 1941-45 Campaign scenario posted - 7/3/2015 4:26:43 PM   
timmyab

 

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From: Bristol, UK
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I've had a quick look at this. The South seems to be a much tougher prospect for the Axis player against this setup. The strengthening of the central panzer corridor makes the traditional Lvov attack look a lot less attractive, although it might still be possible I'm not sure.
My first instinct would be to go directly at Rovno and ark around behind Dubno to cut the rail line South of Tarnopol. This should at least insure the destruction of most of the Soviet units West of the fortified river line. It sets up an interesting turn 2 as well because the Soviet player might choose to defend the fortified river line for fear of his frozen Southern front being enveloped. Also hardly any of the Soviet units would be isolated on the Axis turn 2.
If the Romanian units are removed from the border then it really is difficult. In that case I might just aim at the destruction of 5th and 6th armies. This would be a big game balance shift to the Soviets of course and the giant Lvov opening as we know it would be dead.

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RE: New 1941-45 Campaign scenario posted - 10/9/2015 6:17:58 AM   
governato

 

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If I remember there were plans for WITE2 to make the terrain close the border a little more realistic/MP expensive than in the current game...I hope it is still on the list. That 'd obviously help to slow down the panzers a bit, without too much fuss. I also agree that the hex flipping rules seem a bit unrealistic at the moment...

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RE: New 1941-45 Campaign scenario posted - 10/9/2015 7:44:03 AM   
RedLancer


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From: UK
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The WitE2 map will be the same as WitW - you can see it if you have WitW by looking at the generic data in the editor.

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RE: New 1941-45 Campaign scenario posted - 10/9/2015 11:26:38 AM   
gingerbread


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One not ahistorical tweek would be to not apply the surprise MP bonuses for movement & combat south of Brest-L. Kirponos got to keep his head, Pavlov did not.

As for bringing AGC Panzers to AGS, there were traffic jams already with the units historically present, so if augmentation of AGS is allowed in WitE2, traffic should be included in the simulation model. I'd expect a rather rapidly diminishing returns for those Axis players who do augment AGS.

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RE: New 1941-45 Campaign scenario posted - 10/9/2015 3:50:23 PM   
governato

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

The WitE2 map will be the same as WitW - you can see it if you have WitW by looking at the generic data in the editor.



is it different from the WITE map in the Lvov/border areas?

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Post #: 15
RE: New 1941-45 Campaign scenario posted - 10/9/2015 5:17:47 PM   
RedLancer


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From: UK
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The whole map is completely different as I'm finding out. For WitW we didn't look to far east - only 200+ missing locations to add that are in WitE.

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RE: New 1941-45 Campaign scenario posted - 10/9/2015 6:02:05 PM   
c00per


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Hey for the map design can you get that guy who has the website "mapmods" his graphics work and detail is the best.

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